75 replies to this topic

[wyoming_mi]

New member here from GR (good old Wyoming actually)

With all of the new development possibly about to burst on to our downtown GR scene within the next 2-4 years, does anyone else think it is time for the originally-planned-someday expansion of the 'Van? The arena is esentially what really kickstarted the excitement back in 1996, and expansion plans ARE in the arena's blueprints, probably expanding seating to around 15 or 16,000. Grand Rapids could definately benefit from a larger arena, but it might take the other projects being completed for the Van Andel to get a serious consideration for expansion.

[joeDowntown]

Welcome Wyoming_mi,

Personally, I do not think that the arena expansion will happen for atleast five years. Unfortunately, 2 of the main tenants (Rampage and Griffins) are having terrible attendance records. However, concerts make up a majority of the Arena's income so if they continue to do strong concert business, maybe.

I think another factor is that the Arena's profits are currently propping up the convention center's losses. As the convention center books larger conventions and lowers their operating loss, maybe they will consider it, hence a couple years down the road (after the Marriott is completed).

It would be nice to turn the horse shoe into a complete oval...

Joe

[woz]

Building out the arena depends almost solely on attendance at sporting events. I've been to dozens of concerts there, and I have never seen a stage set up that didn't put the stage in front of the dead wall. Some performers do perform "in the round," but they're the exception, not the rule. If concerts make money for your arena, it doesn't make sense to spend that money on adding more seats that you couldn't sell to concert-goers. Even concerts at the Palace of Auburn Hills, which is a complete oval, don't fill the seats directly behind the stage. Building the area out for Stars on Ice or Monster Trucks, which is essentially what we'd be doing without a viable sports team, doesn't make a ton of sense economically. We'd first need to establish ourselves first as a major league sports town, and that hasn't happened over the last decade of lukewarm support for our minor league teams, despite their level of success.

I spoke with former mayor John Logie about a year ago about the future of downtown and he predicted that in the next couple of decades, we would see a major league sports franchise in GR. At the time, it sounded possible. There are NHL teams and NBA teams in markets that aren't much bigger than GR, and based on our current, err, future facilities (assuming the Van does get built out), an expansion team would likely be a pro basketball franchise or a pro hockey franchise. The problem, however, is that no ABA or CBA basketball team has ever drawn in GR, whether at the old Welsh or the Van or the DeltaPlex. And now we don't even have semi-pro basketball anymore -- and no one seems to be lamenting that fact. As for hockey ... well, it looked like a very real possibility before this year. Now, the NHL has enough on its plate trying to bring back fans in its current markets whom it lost when it cancelled this season. I doubt they'll be considering expansion anytime soon.

[superNOVA]

Quote

Building the area out for Stars on Ice or Monster Trucks, which is essentially what we'd be doing without a viable sports team, doesn't make a ton of sense economically.

Actually these events (Motocross, Rodeo, etc...) are growing into a very strong revenue stream for the Arena. They have increased in popularity (and visits) a lot over the last decade. I think that the Arena could absorb the seat without much of a problem.

Quote

Now, the NHL has enough on its plate trying to bring back fans in its current markets whom it lost when it cancelled this season. I doubt they'll be considering expansion anytime soon.

Unless of course they realize that the future of the NHL is the Northeast and Midwest (Canada too) as opposed to the South and Southwest. They can have as many teams as they want as long as they realize that they are the beotch child of pro sports and it is mostly a regional fan base.

What it really comes down to is for someone to front the cash for a team, or those locally that own a team to quit threatening Orlando every year and actually move their team. By the time this happens it will require a new arean, as the Van Andel would barely meet the minimum specs after the build out. An arena being a big part of any sports deal, we are in a bad position versus a similar market that would be willing to spend. For Grand Rapids to have attained a pro team we would have had to have struck while the iron was hot, about 1994 or so.

Another case of being a bit too cautious here.

[joeDowntown]

I think the answer would be a pro sports team, whether it is NHL or NBA. I think what second-tier sports teams are realizing is that after the novelty has worn off, not many people get behind a team that shifts players constantly (farm teams) or has a roster of "has beens" or "almost were" players. I'm sure an NHL team would easily sell double the seats of an AHL team.

I do however think that Arena Football could be something if it is nurtured right. But I think ultimately, it would be best served if we had a team that everyone could get behind on a national level.

Now the chance of that happening is iffy. I heard that DeVos has no interest in moving the Orlando Magic and would rather sell it than go through the hassle of moving.

The arena will probably grow as the region grows.

Joe

Edited by joeDowntown, 06 March 2005 - 10:53 AM.

[moonshield]

I don't think GR is capable of hosting major leagues with Detroit in the picture.

[metrogrkid]

moonshield, on Mar 6 2005, 06:12 PM, said:

I don't think GR is capable of hosting major leagues with Detroit in the picture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Moon:

How easy it is to overlook real world situations that belie what you just said. If your logic were true, then you could have said in the past, "I don't think San Antonio is capable of hosting major leagues with Houston and Dallas in the picture" or that could have easily been tranferred to "I don't think Sacramento is capable of hosting major leagues with Los Angeles and San Francisco in the picture".

Michigan, like Texas and California, is becoming another state with multiple big cities - ideally positioned big cities, as a matter of fact. Metro Detroit and its 3.5 million people anchor the east coast of the state while Metro Grand Rapids and its 1.2 million people anchor the west coast of the state. Metro GR is forecasted to add another 300,000 people over the next decade. FACTUALIZE - don't give in to "I don't think" (especially about GR - it will turn around and prove you wrong every time - EVERY TIME).

Edited by metrogrkid, 07 March 2005 - 05:39 AM.

[superNOVA]

Technically Grand Rapids would have little problem with a pro team (except baseball). Economically we easily qualify for all of the leagues with the execption of MLB. Furthermore, most industry stats I have seen (I did look into this a while back) have GR as being capable of supporting two NBA/NHL class teams or one NFL class team. The lack of major college teams also adds to this disposable sporting income.

Look at the raw numbers, 1.3 million in the metro, about 1.7 - 9 or more within an hour drive (the real number they use), and perhaps the largest regional economy not to house a pro team, or one of the largest. The biggest thing we have going for us here is out economy, per capita we are extremely powerful.

Grand Rapids' yearly economic output is larger than cities like, Buffalo, Jacksonville, New Orleans, or Vegas (for now) and on par with Nashville and Salt Lake City. We need to start seeing ourselves in this way, or it will never happen. That being said, there would be stiff competition with the likes of Lousiville (about the same population and economically) and probably Birmingham (a bit smaller and less economically developed).

[moonshield]

hm, I know I know. I lived in GR for what, like 10 years. I moved to NC in 2000. Maybe a lot has happened since then. That is great if everything is going great but again, I hear that growth is behind the national average, especially economically. Prove to me that that is not the case.

If the leagues like the AFL and IHL(?) can't keep any interest in the city, who is to say that NBA would. Remeber with the NBA you are dealing with ticket prices that are much higher. In my opinion GR cannot support that. The metro. What else does the metro consist of? Muskegon and Holland. Er.... Muskegon is never going to ammount to anything and Holland... Holland. I know that there are other fine cities in the metro also.

And never compare Michigan with states like Texas and California. That is silly. Those are two of the most populated states in the union, and have exceptional amounts of BIG business.



I have never met such a group of GR fanatics . I like this board. I am going up to GR in about a week, I am looking forward to it. Y'all are not planning on any snow are you?

[joeDowntown]

Moon,

Snow before March 15th is a given... I had heard the same statistics as SuperNova. I do think the support for a major sporting team would be here, I just don't think it will happen because we're too wiley to pay for $500 million dollar stadiums with taxpayer $$$. The odd thing to remember about Grand Rapids and major sports (I am not a sports fanatic). You go slightly North and they are Packers fans, you go South and they are Chicago fans. People in GR are not totally die-hard Detroit fans. I am sure people would buy new jerseys very quickly if a pro team moved to town.

Other than the fact that it is in a different State I think most Western Michigan people would rather align themselves with Chicago than Detroit. Us Outstate people get the shaft quite often.

Like I said though, I don't think it is on the horizon though...

Joe

[metrogrkid]

joeDowntown, on Mar 7 2005, 04:27 PM, said:

. . . . Us Outstate people get the shaft quite often. . . .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

JOE:

Part of the reason we have always been traditionally "shafted" by Southeast Michigan/Metro Detroit (among a GREAT many reasons) is that we allow it. When's the last time you heard ANY official from West Michigan/Metro Grand Rapids check a Detroiter HARD about the use of that moronic "Outstate" moniker? OUT, last time I knew, referred to "NOT IN", "NOT IN ON THE MAIN HAPPENINGS", "DATED", "PASSE", i.e. - "WACK AS HELL".

Words are powerful because they have the potential to precisely coalesce a thought and to leave an imprint on another's consciousness. We can do wonders for our regional self-respect if we start with just two little word plays: 1) drop that d____ "GREATER" crap (especially when we stopped being "Greater Grand Rapids" in 1996 when we crossed into the 1-million person population-having "Metro Area" strata) and 2) CORRECT THE S___ OUT OF DETROITERS (and our own slow local representatives/officials) WHENEVER THEY UTTER "OUTSTATE" AND REDIRECT THEM TO REFER TO METRO GRAND RAPIDS GENERICALLY AS "WESTSTATE". Sounds MUCH better and MUCH more precise, huh? Let's get on with it . . . .

[Freddy C]

MetroKid...where did you get your numbers for Metro Detroit? You used the broadest measure of Metropolitan GR, while using the narrowest measure to define Detroit. Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties alone have a combined population of over 4 million. Throw in the peripheral counties and Detroit is near 5 million. Also, do not forget that Windsor, for all intents and purposes, is part of Metro Detroit despite it being in another country. The consolidated Metropolitan statistical Area of Detroit (the broades measure), which includes Ann Arbor-Flind, is around 5.5 million. Throw in Windsor and you have around 6 Million.

I think that positive things are happening in GR. However, positive things are happening all over other parts of the country too. It is not wise to use the metrics of the past to rate GR. It is wiser to use the metrics of other cities as the competition for success is not with the past, but with other cities in present. GR is a contender in the Rust Belt or NorthEaster quadrant of the country, but it is only average outside the Rust Belt, when juxtaposed against Sun Belt cities, where the nation’s population is shifting.

I was just back in GR last weekend....but unfortunately for a funeral. After reading this forum my fantasy of GR grew larger than the reality of GR. I was soon brought back into equilibrium after riding around the city a little. To me, GR is still depressing. Maybe that is because I spend most of my time at my folk’s home which is in the Lafayette/Franking area (the hood). Even though I feel that GR is better than it’s past...it has a long ways to go to be competitive with other cities that are competing for jobs and people. I was looking (hoping) to see something that would make me want to move back to the area with my wife and family...but I am afraid that my wife and I would grow bored and depressed. Living in Minneapolis has kind of spoiled me by raising my level of expectations...that GR canno meet (adjusting for population differences).

The problem with GR is that there lacks enough investment in the Park Systems, the Inner City (you can find major retailers such as Target in the “hood” in the Twin cities), the infrastructure (roads and bridges), the School system and more. What struck me when I first move here is the “confidence” that major retailers have in investing in minority communities here. You think Meijer would ever buy some property on Division near hall...tear it down and build a Meijer store there...HECKY NAW. However, Target (based in the Twin Cites) has stores in the heart of the Inner City and they are not the only retailers who do.

I think that GR has definitely proved to me that it is more progressive than in its past, however, it still has a ways to go to be as progressive as other places.

Edited by Freddy C, 08 March 2005 - 03:21 PM.

[moonshield]

indeed, I agree.

[metrogrkid]

Freddy C, on Mar 8 2005, 03:12 PM, said:

MetroKid...where did you get your numbers for Metro Detroit? You used the broadest measure of Metropolitan GR, while using the narrowest measure to define Detroit. Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties alone have a combined population of over 4 million. Throw in the peripheral counties and Detroit is near 5 million. Also, do not forget that Windsor, for all intents and purposes, is part of Metro Detroit despite it being in another country. The consolidated Metropolitan statistical Area of Detroit (the broades measure), which includes Ann Arbor-Flind, is around 5.5 million. Throw in Windsor and you have around 6 Million.

I think that positive things are happening in GR. However, positive things are happening all over other parts of the country too. It is not wise to use the metrics of the past to rate GR. It is wiser to use the metrics of other cities as the competition for success is not with the past, but with other cities in present. GR is a contender in the Rust Belt or NorthEaster quadrant of the country, but it is only average outside the Rust Belt, when juxtaposed against Sun Belt cities, where the nation’s population is shifting.

I was just back in GR last weekend....but unfortunately for a funeral. After reading this forum my fantasy of GR grew larger than the reality of GR. I was soon brought back into equilibrium after riding around the city a little. To me, GR is still depressing. Maybe that is because I spend most of my time at my folk’s home which is in the Lafayette/Franking area (the hood).  Even though I feel that GR is better than it’s past...it has a long ways to go to be competitive with other cities that are competing for jobs and people. I was looking (hoping) to see something that would make me want to move back to the area with my wife and family...but I am afraid that my wife and I would grow bored and depressed. Living in Minneapolis has kind of spoiled me by raising my level of expectations...that GR canno meet (adjusting for population differences).

The problem with GR is that there lacks enough investment in the Park Systems, the Inner City (you can find major retailers such as Target in the “hood” in the Twin cities), the infrastructure (roads and bridges), the School system and more.  What struck me when I first move here is the “confidence” that major retailers have in investing in minority communities here. You think Meijer would ever buy some property on Division near hall...tear it down and build a Meijer store there...HECKY NAW. However, Target (based in the Twin Cites) has stores in the heart of the Inner City and they are not the only retailers who do.

I think that GR has definitely proved to me that it is more progressive than in its past, however, it still has a ways to go to be as progressive as other places.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<sigh> Freddy & Moon:

Though you are both exactly right, YOU COMPLETELY MISSED MY POINT. I could care less about the OTHER parts of America that are "comparatively" better in this instance. READ CAREFULLY: I was talking about and ONLY about Metro GR's regional downplaying on the part of Metro Detroit referring to Metro GR as "Outstate". We are no longer "OUT" we are "West" and we will continue to become more distant from "OUT" as we continue to develop.

Incidently, Fred, it is FAR EASIER to take one's skills and talents to an already world-class and phenomenal area (like a Metro Minneapolis) that doesn't need them than to stay in a region like Metro Grand Rapids whose historic growth and potential can be accelerated by applying those same sets of skills and talents to building up GR instead of running to Minneapolis. Enjoy the Mini Apple. When I own my own pieces of the world-class infrastructure that you will enjoy while visiting GR in the future, I'll make it a point to introduce myself and show you what your enjoyment had just paid for at that point.

CHEERS

Edited by metrogrkid, 08 March 2005 - 10:24 PM.

[metrogrkid]

Edited by metrogrkid, 08 March 2005 - 10:23 PM.

[superNOVA]

Quote

The problem with GR is that there lacks enough investment in the Park Systems

Intersting, GR has a top notch park system. Few cities in the world offer as much in terms of area dedicated to public spaces and parks per area of development. With Millenium Park, GR blows past almost all.




I do agree with you. GR is not the end all be all. However, it is good to see some pride here, because it seems to be missing locally. Too many people in the region are happy to be a backwater, and the facts are (economically) we are not, not even close. This local malaise needs to be addressed before we move forward or we will always as a community be doomed to our current 'little big town' status.

[moonshield]

yea, GR should stand up for itself more.

[Freddy C]

Please do not misunderstand my communication. I WANT to see GR rise and flourish and I believe that if this nation can sustain itself economically, given the rise of China and soon India, I believe GR can indeed become what you envision. I think the unaddressed strength of the area is the fresh water from the Great Lakes. Fresh water supply will be a major concern in the future, I believe, and will constrain growth in current fast booming places. Moreover, the GR Metro is adjacent to a great recreational area with beeches, boating, fishing, Sand Dunes and more. Ergo, the area has great future potential for those speculating.

That having been said, I think that the suburbs of Grand Rapids are booming. However, the area planners made a mistake by letting entropy take place in the city. I think Detroit offers a case study of how the fate of a region is tied to the image of its central city. In metro Detroit, for decades suburbanites would brag about not having a need to go to the city proper. They would be the first to speak disparagingly about the city to other suburbanites as well as to visitors. “Ohhh you don’t want to go DOWN THERE...THEY will kill you”. Eventually, the decay of the central city shaped the whole region as a negative and helped its decline. I have never seen a city that created a self fulfilling prophecy of its decline as I witnessed with Detroit.

Grand Rapids was following the same path of pro suburbanization and sprawls at the expense of investment in the city proper. Even though it is not comfortable for people to hear, racism played a major role in the decline of Michigan Central cities, as everyone knows that Michigan is one of the most residentially segregated states in the Nation. I believe it is number one. I still believe that the primary difference between Minneapolis and GR is the progressiveness of the attitudes of the people. Minneapolis is more liberal and open to different kinds of people and the resultant is that people do not RUN away when other ethnicities start to increase in percentages. Consequently, the core cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul are vibrant with inner city investment activity. There are housing projects in the inner city here that look like nice suburban apartments. The “Hood” really does not look like the “Hood” by most big city templates...not even when compared with GR. That makes the area ATTRACTIVE.

I have been encourages by the positive changing of attitudes concerning race in America. It should not go without recognition and praise, the GR area included. However, it should still be noted as a “problem”, despite increased tolerance. I think and hope that the younger generation cleans GR of some of the racism of those older than 45 and one will start to see the central city reach its full potential.

I cannot speak for anyone else and I am not saying that what was true for me was true of any group, but I dealt with a lot of racism that soured me to the area. I had teachers who told the students that he believed that they should send all the blacks back to Africa. I had worked in restaurants were I was constantly accused of stealing the waitresses tips. I was told that everyone used to ride in the front seat of the car because riding in the back was riding N_GG_R (in the early 80’s). I had been constantly stopped and harassed by the GRPD. I was made to feel uncomfortable in certain places. In short, I did not realize how bad GR and Michigan was until I lived in Minneapolis. That is part of the reason why I like it hear...the people are simply much nicer.

I wish all the success in the world to those who will build the future GR...If you build it...I will come.

[metrogrkid]

Freddy C, on Mar 9 2005, 09:41 AM, said:

Please do not misunderstand my communication. I WANT to see GR rise and flourish and I believe that if this nation can sustain itself economically, given the rise of China and soon India, I believe GR can indeed become what you envision. I think the unaddressed strength of the area is the fresh water from the Great Lakes. Fresh water supply will be a major concern in the future, I believe, and will constrain growth in current fast booming places. Moreover, the GR Metro is adjacent to a great recreational area with beeches, boating, fishing, Sand Dunes and more. Ergo, the area has great future potential for those speculating.

That having been said, I think that the suburbs of Grand Rapids are booming. However, the area planners made a mistake by letting entropy take place in the city. I think Detroit offers a case study of how the fate of a region is tied to the image of its central city. In metro Detroit, for decades suburbanites would brag about not having a need to go to the city proper. They would be the first to speak disparagingly about the city to other suburbanites as well as to visitors.  “Ohhh you don’t want to go DOWN THERE...THEY will kill you”. Eventually, the decay of the central city shaped the whole region as a negative and helped its decline. I have never seen a city that created a self fulfilling prophecy of its decline as I witnessed with Detroit.

Grand Rapids was following the same path of pro suburbanization and sprawls at the expense of investment in the city proper. Even though it is not comfortable for people to hear, racism played a major role in the decline of Michigan Central cities, as everyone knows that Michigan is one of the most residentially segregated states in the Nation. I believe it is number one. I still believe that the primary difference between Minneapolis and GR is the progressiveness of the attitudes of the people. Minneapolis is more liberal and open to different kinds of people and the resultant is that people do not RUN away when other ethnicities start to increase in percentages. Consequently, the core cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul are vibrant with inner city investment activity. There are housing projects in the inner city here that look like nice suburban apartments. The “Hood” really does not look like the “Hood” by most big city templates...not even when compared with GR. That makes the area ATTRACTIVE.

I have been encourages by the positive changing of attitudes concerning race in America. It should not go without recognition and praise, the GR area included. However, it should still be noted as a “problem”, despite increased tolerance. I think and hope that the younger generation cleans GR of some of the racism of those older than 45 and one will start to see the central city reach its full potential.

I cannot speak for anyone else and I am not saying that what was true for me was true of any group, but I dealt with a lot of racism that soured me to the area. I had teachers who told the students that he believed that they should send all the blacks back to Africa. I had worked in restaurants were I was constantly accused of stealing the waitresses tips. I was told that everyone used to ride in the front seat of the car because riding in the back was riding N_GG_R (in the early 80’s). I had been constantly stopped and harassed by the GRPD. I was made to feel uncomfortable in certain places. In short, I did not realize how bad GR and Michigan was until I lived in Minneapolis. That is part of the reason why I like it hear...the people are simply much nicer.

I wish all the success in the world to those who will build the future GR...If you build it...I will come.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WE WILL SEE. Incidently, Fred, I AM OF AFRICAN-DESCENT. I have been told the ultra-stupid "If you're not dutch <lower-case "d" intended>, you're not much", endure the super-fake half smiles (grimaces really), the "hey let's plan a music Fest for all the citizens but only feature symphonic, rock and country music to bore non-Europeans away", etc., etc., etc. REGARDLESS OF ALL OF THESE ENRAGING CIRCUMSTANCES IN GR, I STAY BECAUSE I KNOW IT NEEDS ME AND MY POSSESSION OF AFRICENTRIC FLAVOR AND WORLD-CLASS MINDSET TO FORCE IT TO CHANGE. Bear witness to Metro GR being the State Headquarters of this organization: www.mbei.org (the site is under renovation and will be available for viewing again on 3/18/05).

PEACE.

[Freddy C]

metrogrkid, on Mar 10 2005, 07:53 PM, said:

WE WILL SEE.  Incidently, Fred, I AM OF AFRICAN-DESCENT.  I have been told the ultra-stupid "If you're not dutch <lower-case "d" intended>, you're not much", endure the super-fake half smiles (grimaces really), the "hey let's plan a music Fest for all the citizens but only feature symphonic, rock and country music to bore non-Europeans away", etc., etc., etc.  REGARDLESS OF ALL OF THESE ENRAGING CIRCUMSTANCES IN GR, I STAY BECAUSE I KNOW IT NEEDS ME AND MY POSSESSION OF AFRICENTRIC FLAVOR AND WORLD-CLASS MINDSET TO FORCE IT TO CHANGE.  Bear witness to Metro GR being the State Headquarters of this organization:  www.mbei.org (the site is under renovation and will be available for viewing again on 3/18/05).

PEACE.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I commend you MetroKid. Do not take this personal. I am not hoping at all that GR fails and I am not challenging you that it will. Thus, I do not understand "your WE WILL SEE". We will see What? I am only hoping for the Best for GR. I would like to move back to GR, but I have no compelling reason stay and try to help build GR. I would not sacrafice my full potential trying to make GR a better place...why should I?


My parents were born and raised in Jim Crow Mississippi. They left Mississippi for the same reason that I left Michigan...which was the quest for better opportunities and to escape racism. There situation however was much worse than mine in degree and kind. Today, Mississippi is still a basket case, partly because its history of racial animosity that has prevented investment. Michigan could end up like Mississippi if it is not careful and honest about addressing its problems...such as segregation levels born from polarization and persistant racism.

I think in a nation that is growing in diversity from minorities fueling the nations population growth, the “old boy” image will and way of doing business will hurt the potential growth of areas. I believe that GR has changed and is changing, but it is still “old boy” relative to other more progressive areas. For this reason, GR will continue to suffer a "Brain Drain" of talented minorities who will opt for Atlanta, Minneapolis and other cities seen as more progressive and OPEN to minority success.

Again, I WANT to see GR move progressively forward, however, I do not feel a natural bond to the area to make me want to promote its success, to the degree of limiting my personal growth potential. It is not “The Mother Land”, although it is the land where my mother still lives.

Edited by Freddy C, 10 March 2005 - 10:12 PM.