75 replies to this topic

[metrogrkid]

Freddy C, on Mar 10 2005, 10:04 PM, said:

I commend you MetroKid. Do not take this personal. I am not hoping at all that GR fails and I am not challenging you that it will. Thus, I do not understand "your WE WILL SEE". We will see What? I am only hoping for the Best for GR. I would like to move back to GR, but I have no compelling reason stay and try to help build GR. I would not sacrafice my full potential trying to make GR a better place...why should I?
My parents were born and raised in Jim Crow Mississippi. They left Mississippi for the same reason that I left Michigan...which was the quest for better opportunities and to escape racism. There situation however was much worse than mine in degree and kind. Today, Mississippi is still a basket case, partly because its history of racial animosity that has prevented investment. Michigan could end up like Mississippi if it is not careful and honest about addressing its problems...such as segregation levels born from polarization and persistant racism.

I think in a nation that is growing in diversity from minorities fueling the nations population growth, the “old boy” image will and way of doing business will hurt the potential growth of areas. I believe that GR has changed and is changing, but it is still “old boy” relative to other more progressive areas. For this reason, GR will continue to suffer a "Brain Drain" of talented minorities who will opt for Atlanta, Minneapolis and other cities seen as more progressive and OPEN to minority success.

Again, I WANT to see GR move progressively forward, however, I do not feel a natural bond to the area to make me want to promote its success, to the degree of limiting my personal growth potential. It is not “The Mother Land”, although it is the land where my mother still lives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fred:

Thank you for your " ", but can you hear yourself? " . . . . I have no compelling reason stay and try to help build GR. I would not sacrafice my full potential trying to make GR a better place...why should I? . . . . ".

As a person that has donated the rest of their life toward making the dream of Dr. Martin Luther King real in Metro Grand Rapids for people just like you, your statement sounds profoundly self-serving, maddening and, actually, common. I continue to be amazed that throughout history a very small few are allowed to bear alone the burden of engaging historic social change (like that required for GR) that will benefit many that they will never know and at the same time will probably only benefit the memory of that small few after they have passed away from the crushing weight of the task. It does not have to be that way unfortunately your view - "why me? let some other sap do it" - is the one that prevails.

Oh well, onward I go . . . . always onward . . . .

[Freddy C]

metrogrkid, on Mar 11 2005, 08:19 PM, said:

Fred:

Thank you for your " ", but can you hear yourself?  " . . . . I have no compelling reason stay and try to help build GR. I would not sacrafice my full potential trying to make GR a better place...why should I? . . . . ".

As a person that has donated the rest of their life toward making the dream of Dr. Martin Luther King real in Metro Grand Rapids for people just like you, your statement sounds profoundly self-serving, maddening and, actually, common.  I continue to be amazed that throughout history a very small few are allowed to bear alone the burden of engaging historic social change (like that required for GR) that will benefit many that they will never know and at the same time will probably only benefit the memory of that small few after they have passed away from the crushing weight of the task.  It does not have to be that way unfortunately your view - "why me? let some other sap do it" - is the one that prevails.

Oh well, onward I go . . . . always onward . . . .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do not feel “Bound” to make Kings Dream manifest in a single metropolis. In truth, I feel more compelled to go to Mississippi to make a social difference...not GR. That having been said, I do believe that I need to first maximize my full potential so as to create more that I can then offer in assistance to others. If I am down, it is hard to help pull someone else up. If I am up, I have the leverage to pull others up. In GR, I am almost positive that I would not have been given the opportunities to do what I do hear in Minneapolis, despite my education. I do not want to always feel that I have to prove that I am capable or more than just an Affirmative Action hire.

I think GR is better for those who migrate to the area and have not been biased by the history of experience. I may be guilty of creating a self fulfilling prophecy born from the conditioning of my environment and experience while living in GR. It may be that it has changed more than I know, but I am simply blinded by the history of bad experiences I had there.

I am glade for the new developments taking place in GR in the central business district. But as I said before, I do not know of any black moguls taking part in this new expansive period. Likely, it is some of the same old player and most of the opportunities generated will go to the same old people, while most minorities remain isolated to the run down near SE and SW sides of town.

[superNOVA]

Quote

I am glade for the new developments taking place in GR in the central business district. But as I said before, I do not know of any black moguls taking part in this new expansive period.

Actually just last week the Press had a good article about a few of the more prominant black developers and their developments. Some were very interesting, and by all means good for everyone. I wish I had a copy, it was a good read.

[dnast]

Post it if you find it; I'm interested. Even though I don't post in the GR forum often, I almost always read it.

[Freddy C]

superNOVA, on Mar 12 2005, 02:13 AM, said:

Actually just last week the Press had a good article about a few of the more prominant black developers and their developments.  Some were very interesting, and by all means good for everyone.  I wish I had a copy, it was a good read.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes...I would be very interested to see what kind of minority developments are taking place in the city and the dollar value of those developments. I know that there are some new housing units being built in the Madison Square area (intersection of Madison and Hall). I am not sure who the developer or builder is for that project, however. What I do know is that the Rockford Construction Company, which seems to win the bid for most of the major construction in GR....has an atrocious record for hiring blacks on these sites.

[joeDowntown]

Roosevelt Tillman seems to be the leading minority developer in Grand Rapids. He is responsible for most of the development along South Division (South of Wealthy). Here is a link to the article you were referring to:

Mall Grows on Division

There was also an article in todays GR Press about another re-development on South Division dubbed "Casa de..." (can't remember the name). It is also a project spearheaded by minority developers.

I think it happens more often than you think in Grand Rapids. Plenty of the development of streets such as Wealthy, Madison and Division have had a lot to do with minority leaders who care about the core city.

Joe

[Freddy C]

joeDowntown, on Mar 12 2005, 10:00 AM, said:

Roosevelt Tillman seems to be the leading minority developer in Grand Rapids. He is responsible for most of the development along South Division (South of Wealthy). Here is a link to the article you were referring to:

Mall Grows on Division

There was also an article in todays GR Press about another re-development on South Division dubbed "Casa de..." (can't remember the name). It is also a project spearheaded by minority developers.

I think it happens more often than you think in Grand Rapids. Plenty of the development of streets such as Wealthy, Madison and Division have had a lot to do with minority leaders who care about the core city.

Joe

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have always been aware of SOME minority entrepreneurs activity in Grand Rapids. I have never doubted that. What stands out to me is the scale and location of the projects. How are minorities involved in the ownership, development or building in Downtown GR or for that matter, in suburban GR? I do not see much minority representation in the more lucrative locations and projects.

It may simply take some time for blacks to develop the capital base, given this nations and the areas history and all. Its kind of like trying to enter an monopoly game that has been started long before you were allowed in the game. Once you get in, most of the good properties are owned and people are making money off of you instead of you making money of them.

I think that thing maybe a lot better in GR than it used to be. I believe that perception naturally lags reality, when perception was shaped by the past and peoples attitudes have gradually changed. The door may now be wide open...but so many people have been conditioned by the past that the door IS closed...that they cannot take advantage when its open. I think that the best cure for that is to see blacks and other minorities represented in all strata of major development. Then other will look and say...wow...there is opportunity and open doors for people who look like me...I am going to give that door a try.

[mrknowitall]

prince sold out that arena. i bet if they add the back half, he could do it again.....it still wont be big enough to host monster trucks

[snoogit]

GR has basketball fans. GR defnately could support an NHL, NBA, and a higher-up baseball farm team (AAA, AA) and the AFL Rampage (Provided they WIN once in a while)

And if Devos sells the Magic, lets hope he sells them to soneone who would move them to Grand Rapids

IF the NHL wants to move a team, I could see the Florida Panthers, Atlanta Thrashers, or even the Pittsburgh Penguins here to Grand Rapids.

THeres AAA teams in smaller markets then GR, so we could support a AAA team too. (Likely not a Tigers farm team, but a AAA team)

[superNOVA]

Quote

I have always been aware of SOME minority entrepreneurs activity in Grand Rapids.

Funny Grand Rapids is almost always on the top of the list for Hispanic development. Last year it was top ten in the nation for Hispanic entreprenuership. Just take a drive down Grandville or the near West Side - there are a few very distinct and successful Hispanic neighborhoods, as well as a good general acceptance of Hispanic businesses.

There is a lot of development in the traditionally black neighborhoods, just smaller projects, but they add up. Sure, there still seem to be some problems, but as the entire city improves, so will some of these areas. The general tone of the city seems much more positive and clean than when I was younger. During the eighties everything was dreary, now entire blocks have dumpsters out from and are renovating. Some of these are in areas that you would not have gone on a dark night a decade ago.

I have also noticed that lately the citites traditionally ethnic areas (like the South East, Westside, etc...) are beginning to really mix. More and more young white families are moving towards the South and South East. I have also noticed major black movement towards what has traditionally be the almost all white Westside. This blend is good for a city. It is good to get people and groups mixing.

Edited by superNOVA, 14 March 2005 - 10:46 PM.

[bobliocatt]

superNOVA, on Mar 7 2005, 03:41 PM, said:

Grand Rapids' yearly economic output is larger than cities like, Buffalo, Jacksonville, New Orleans, or Vegas (for now) and on par with Nashville and Salt Lake City.  We need to start seeing ourselves in this way, or it will never happen.  That being said, there would be stiff competition with the likes of Lousiville (about the same population and economically) and probably Birmingham (a bit smaller and less economically developed).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unfortunately for Grand Rapids, much more goes into getting and keeping a sports team then metro economic output. The biggest thing standing in GR's way, is that in reality, its a lot smaller than its metro numbers would suggest, especially compared to cities with more compact urban areas like Birmingham, Louisville, Jax, etc. Another problem is none of the leagues are looking at expanding any time soon, if ever again, outside of the NFL putting a team in LA. Thus meaning GR would have to compete against larger cities for the few teams that may consider relocating. I noticed that someone mentioned expanding the arena to 15-16,000 seats. Thats still pretty small for a professional sports arena. What's the seating capacity of the arena now?

[snoogit]

thelakelander, on Mar 14 2005, 11:06 PM, said:

Unfortunately for Grand Rapids, much more goes into getting and keeping a sports team then metro economic output. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think we are in the phase of doing just that. Again with the Hotel, and D&F projects. But also other projects will rear their heads as well.

[JimInGR]

The current seating capacity is just over 12,000.

[superNOVA]

Quote

Unfortunately for Grand Rapids, much more goes into getting and keeping a sports team then metro economic output. The biggest thing standing in GR's way, is that in reality, its a lot smaller than its metro numbers would suggest, especially compared to cities with more compact urban areas like Birmingham, Louisville, Jax, etc. Another problem is none of the leagues are looking at expanding any time soon, if ever again, outside of the NFL putting a team in LA. Thus meaning GR would have to compete against larger cities for the few teams that may consider relocating. I noticed that someone mentioned expanding the arena to 15-16,000 seats. Thats still pretty small for a professional sports arena. What's the seating capacity of the arena now?

100% correct. However, you need to look outside of the immediate metro, and at the numbers that most leagues use - one hour drive times or in essence about a 60 mile radius. When that is figured in the West Michigan numbers jump to nearly 2,000,000. A few of those other cities are well below that.

However, pure economics aside. Teams will not be moving for some time, and they sure as hell will not be adding. Most medium sized cities will have little chance, and if an opening does arrive, competition will be fierce. Grand Rapids is too slow off the block to ever win something like this.

Van Andel is also inadequate - and a move would require a new arena. Something that will not happen here for quite some time. Not with Detroit literally sucking every spare penny out of the rest of the state just to keep afloat.



It would be a good NHL market. If the NHL was smart they would realize that their base lies in this region and that they could move all of their teams into the North East / Midwest and still do better than they are right now.

[bobliocatt]

superNOVA, on Mar 15 2005, 12:46 PM, said:

100% correct.  However, you need to look outside of the immediate metro, and at the numbers that most leagues use - one hour drive times or in essence about a 60 mile radius.  When that is figured in the West Michigan numbers jump to nearly 2,000,000.  A few of those other cities are well below that.

Are you sure there's two million residents living within a 60 mile radius of Grand Rapids? That's pushing it. Anyway, those numbers may work for football, due to its limited number of games, but counting on fans to travel over an hour on a daily basis to attend MLB, NHL & NBA games won't cut it. That's probably the reason many of the smaller markets, GR's size, are struggling now.

Quote

Van Andel is also inadequate - and a move would require a new arena.  Something that will not happen here for quite some time.  Not with Detroit literally sucking every spare penny out of the rest of the state just to keep afloat.

Van Andel is a nice arena, but you're right. Grand Rapids would have to build a completely new area with at least 19 - 20,000 seats to even be seriously considered for the NHL or NBA. The market is to small for MLB and NFL, given its location between Detroit, Chicago and Indy.

Quote

It would be a good NHL market.  If the NHL was smart they would realize that their base lies in this region and that they could move all of their teams into the North East / Midwest and still do better than they are right now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Some of the NHL's best markets, like Dallas, are located in the South, so it would be bad business to completely abandon the region.

[superNOVA]

Quote

Are you sure there's two million residents living within a 60 mile radius of Grand Rapids? That's pushing it. Anyway, those numbers may work for football, due to its limited number of games, but counting on fans to travel over an hour on a daily basis to attend MLB, NHL & NBA games won't cut it. That's probably the reason many of the smaller markets, GR's size, are struggling now.

GR CMSA 1.2 million

Kzoo/BC 450,000

Lansing 450,000

Plus those that somehow fall in between the metros. There are easily 2,000,000 people withing 60 miles of Grand Rapids - or very close to it.

[Freddy C]

thelakelander, on Mar 16 2005, 02:50 PM, said:

Are you sure there's two million residents living within a 60 mile radius of Grand Rapids?  That's pushing it.  Anyway, those numbers may work for football, due to its limited number of games, but counting on fans to travel over an hour on a daily basis to attend MLB, NHL & NBA games won't cut it.  That's probably the reason many of the smaller markets, GR's size, are struggling now.
Van Andel is a nice arena, but you're right.  Grand Rapids would have to build a completely new area with at least 19 - 20,000 seats to even be seriously considered for the NHL or NBA.  The market is to small for MLB and NFL, given its location between Detroit, Chicago and Indy.
Some of the NHL's best markets, like Dallas, are located in the South, so it would be bad business to completely abandon the region.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Metro GR = Kent, Ottawa, Alegan and Muskegon = 1.2 mill (2005 est) Kalamazoo/Battle Creek = .45 mil Lansing area = .45 mil small counties not part of metro areas within 60 miles .2 mil............Yes....I think that within a 60 mile radius of GR there is 2 mil. Hey....the same could be said for Lansing too though.

[joeDowntown]

I grudgingly agree that Grand Rapids' chances of getting a professional team are slim. I think their best chance is if the AFL grows into something or if the Devos' decide to move the Orlando Magic to GR (which I don't think will ever happen).

One of the reasons is that I think we are too conservative (and this is in a good way) to finance a $500 million dollar stadium even if we were selected to own a franchise such as the NFL (which wouldn't happen). Sports aren't everything. It adds a lot of pride for a city, but do you think the Lions 8 home games really add that much to the bottom line of Detroit? Probably not...

Joe

[snoogit]

joeDowntown, on Mar 16 2005, 04:26 PM, said:

I grudgingly agree that Grand Rapids' chances of getting a professional team are slim. I think their best chance is if the AFL grows into something or if the Devos' decide to move the Orlando Magic to GR (which I don't think will ever happen).

One of the reasons is that I think we are too conservative (and this is in a good way) to finance a $500 million dollar stadium even if we were selected to own a franchise such as the NFL (which wouldn't happen). Sports aren't everything. It adds a lot of pride for a city, but do you think the Lions 8 home games really add that much to the bottom line of Detroit? Probably not...

Joe

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, but hosting the superbowl is putting Detroit into overhaul mode

[bobliocatt]

Freddy C, on Mar 16 2005, 01:58 PM, said:

Metro GR = Kent, Ottawa, Alegan and Muskegon = 1.2 mill (2005 est) Kalamazoo/Battle Creek = .45 mil  Lansing area = .45 mil  small counties not part of metro areas within 60 miles .2 mil............Yes....I think that within a 60 mile radius of GR there is 2 mil.  Hey....the same could be said for Lansing too though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lansing is about 68 miles east of Grand Rapids, while Kalamazoo is about 50 and Battle Creek is over 60. Since those cities sit in the middle of their metros, to include their entire metro population (to come up with 2 million) would be well in excess of a 60 mile radius from the heart of Grand Rapids.

Using radius numbers that way would bloat other similar sized metro's numbers as well. For example, Buffalo's would include metro Rochester and Jax's would include Brunswick, Gainesville and Daytona. The same thing could probably be applied to any city. The population of Grand Rapid's actual urban area is probably a much more accurate number to use.

Anyway, Grand Rapids is a fine city and has a pretty vibrant downtown core. I'd rather see money that would go for a potential stadium, to go into taking the city's street and cultural scenes to another level.