Rail Transit in Virginia

[rusthebuss]

They said they can increase the speed to around 90mph for the Richmond to Newport News route but because it shares track with slow moving CSX they cannot make it much faster, nor can they electrify the tracks.

The question among planners, would it be best to go for the new Newport News route, or take the route down 460 and through Bowers Hill eventually terminating at Harbor Park.

Both have their pros and cons....the 460 route is a little longer but it can go much faster and spur back on the eastcoast corridor around Petersburg, the tracks can be electrified and go up to 150mph (maybe even more one day). But this route completely skips the Peninsula and Williamsburg. However, one could argue that LRT will one day connect the Peninsula to Harbor Park meaning thats not a problem that HSR doesn't have a peninsula stop.

As much as I want to see downtown Newport News revitalized around the new HSR Amtrak station, I would rather see Harbor Park become the central transit point both locally and regionally. I think its much better to have one central location!

If they took the 460 route they could have a stop in smithfield for the pennisula. That is right by the James River Bridge

[cpeakesqr]

If they took the 460 route they could have a stop in smithfield for the pennisula. That is right by the James River Bridge

And the current Amtrak line to NN would still be operational... they wouldn't shut it down to operate a second line down 460, right? Or would operational costs prohibit the two line running concurrently?

[mlsimons]

And the current Amtrak line to NN would still be operational... they wouldn't shut it down to operate a second line down 460, right? Or would operational costs prohibit the two line running concurrently?

Now that was no discussed...I don't know if they would continue the original service.

[lammius]

Now that was no discussed...I don't know if they would continue the original service.

Neither plan is perfect, but either could be good enough.

Intercity rail works when it's fast, when it's reliable, and when it's hassle free. Intercity rail's advantage over air travel is the CBD-to-CBD service. It's not like airline service, which requires a schlep from a city's center to an outlying airport, tons of security, etc.

The advantage of the 460 alignment is that it's a nice straight shot. No turns, no quiet zones. It gets you right to the core of the population center on the southside, and it gets you there fast. There are no stops mid-way, save perhaps a stop in Petersburg and one in Suffolk maybe. But, if it coexists with a schleppier Peninsula service (the current Amtrak service to Newport News), demand in the region would be split between the two routes. There may not be enough demand to support really high rail densities (number of trains/day) which would make the service REALLY attractive. For example, many more people would be attracted by a service which leaves every hour vs. one that leaves only twice/day.

But to combine the two services into one, you'd have a lot of upgrading to do to the CSX line. I assume you'd need double tracks and not just passing sidings if you want to run HSR. The line terminates in Newport News, which isn't all that close to where most of the trips would "want to end." And in a rail service where speed is king, a forced transfer onto bus or even light rail for an hour trip to the Southside isn't ideal and really eats up any time savings HSR would offer relative to other modes. BUT, assuming you could make a Peninsula service just as fast, and all of the Hampton Roads rail demand is focused at one terminus, you could develop the demand necessary to run trains very frequently.

Overall I favor the 460 alignment into Norfolk, with one stop in Suffolk. so long as we don't see the current 4 trains to NPN a day turn into 2 trains to NPN and 2 trains to Norfolk. The only remaining question is, what is Norfolk Southern's plan for the Rt 460 rail line? With NS's "Heartland Corridor" improvements and anticipated doubling of marine cargo coming into HR in the future, how many more freight trains will be operating on that line? Is there room for HSR passenger service?

[varider]

I absolutely love the idea of light rail, HSR to Richmond, and Commuter Rail to Chesapeake and N.C all coming together at Harbor Park.

[mlsimons]

Overall I favor the 460 alignment into Norfolk, with one stop in Suffolk. so long as we don't see the current 4 trains to NPN a day turn into 2 trains to NPN and 2 trains to Norfolk. The only remaining question is, what is Norfolk Southern's plan for the Rt 460 rail line? With NS's "Heartland Corridor" improvements and anticipated doubling of marine cargo coming into HR in the future, how many more freight trains will be operating on that line? Is there room for HSR passenger service?

There is room to expand, like you said...it is a straight shot, with little turns or bridges. This route is also my suggestion!

[rusthebuss]

Neither plan is perfect, but either could be good enough.

Intercity rail works when it's fast, when it's reliable, and when it's hassle free. Intercity rail's advantage over air travel is the CBD-to-CBD service. It's not like airline service, which requires a schlep from a city's center to an outlying airport, tons of security, etc.

The advantage of the 460 alignment is that it's a nice straight shot. No turns, no quiet zones. It gets you right to the core of the population center on the southside, and it gets you there fast. There are no stops mid-way, save perhaps a stop in Petersburg and one in Suffolk maybe. But, if it coexists with a schleppier Peninsula service (the current Amtrak service to Newport News), demand in the region would be split between the two routes. There may not be enough demand to support really high rail densities (number of trains/day) which would make the service REALLY attractive. For example, many more people would be attracted by a service which leaves every hour vs. one that leaves only twice/day.

But to combine the two services into one, you'd have a lot of upgrading to do to the CSX line. I assume you'd need double tracks and not just passing sidings if you want to run HSR. The line terminates in Newport News, which isn't all that close to where most of the trips would "want to end." And in a rail service where speed is king, a forced transfer onto bus or even light rail for an hour trip to the Southside isn't ideal and really eats up any time savings HSR would offer relative to other modes. BUT, assuming you could make a Peninsula service just as fast, and all of the Hampton Roads rail demand is focused at one terminus, you could develop the demand necessary to run trains very frequently.

Overall I favor the 460 alignment into Norfolk, with one stop in Suffolk. so long as we don't see the current 4 trains to NPN a day turn into 2 trains to NPN and 2 trains to Norfolk. The only remaining question is, what is Norfolk Southern's plan for the Rt 460 rail line? With NS's "Heartland Corridor" improvements and anticipated doubling of marine cargo coming into HR in the future, how many more freight trains will be operating on that line? Is there room for HSR passenger service?

They are working on putting a lot of warehouses in Suffolk and Isle of Wight for the shipping containers. My dad works for NS. I will try and ask him what they have planned.

[varider]

link

"Hampton Roads residents looking for a nearby getaway might one day be able to hop aboard a train bound for Edenton, the Town Council suggested this week at its annual retreat.

"The track is there. You think of all the people who might come here," said Councilman Sam Dixon, who brought up the idea as a way to ramp up tourism.

Mayor Roland Vaughan said he's aware of an expert who locates rail that has been abandoned or underutilized so it can be revitalized for tourism or commerce."

[jeffconn]

link

"Hampton Roads residents looking for a nearby getaway might one day be able to hop aboard a train bound for Edenton, the Town Council suggested this week at its annual retreat.

"The track is there. You think of all the people who might come here," said Councilman Sam Dixon, who brought up the idea as a way to ramp up tourism.

Mayor Roland Vaughan said he's aware of an expert who locates rail that has been abandoned or underutilized so it can be revitalized for tourism or commerce."

Interesting. If i read my maps right, that line starts in south Chesapeake and then to Elizabeth City, Hertford, and ends in Edenton. Sounds like a decent commuter line. Don't know about a tourist train though. What the heck is in Edenton?

[rusthebuss]

What the heck is in Edenton?

Its by the water. And that is the point, its a get away from everything

[urbanvb]

The water and it's an old historical town as well.

[lammius]

They are working on putting a lot of warehouses in Suffolk and Isle of Wight for the shipping containers. My dad works for NS. I will try and ask him what they have planned.

That would be cool to find out, Russ. I just think with all of the additional port capacity (and assuming there's additional throughput), and distribution centers being developed in Suffolk and IoW, there's going to be a lot of demand for that two-track rail line. Add in a regular high speed passenger rail, and I wonder what the line density becomes. And therefore what improvements are needed to enhance rail capacity to accommodate both freight and passenger needs (a third track, passing sidings, etc.). Also, if the HSR operates using overhead electric catenary, how would that work if NS is running double-stacked containers? Hmm. Lots to think about.

The water and it's an old historical town as well.

A tourism train to Edenton sounds like a fun idea! Edenton's a charming historic village, with a great setting near the cypress-stumpy wide mouth of the Chowan River. A tourism train could bring visitors to stay in B&Bs, and turn Edenton into a getaway for HR residents.

So let's think. We could see a commuter rail service running several trains each rush period between Elizabeth City and Norfolk, with a special weekend service continuing out to Edenton. Or who knows, if there's enough travel demand between Hertford, Edenton, etc and Hampton Roads, you could do a regular commuter service out that far. I doubt it's there yet (small population out there and i bet few if any commute to downtown Norfolk), but could be built up in the future. I haven't been down into Pasquotank, Perquimans, Camden, etc. counties in a long time. Is there a lot of suburban (VA commuter) development going on out there? If so, I wonder where in VA they work. Close to Downtown Norfolk or all over the place? How many trips could be diverted from car to rail, based on travel time? Is there really a market for commuter rail out there? Census data is too damn old. I'd love it if there were a study done to find this stuff out. Train stations in South Chesapeake and the NC counties could become nodes spurring new town or village centers.

[jeffconn]

There's about 17,000 people in Elizabeth City, and the Chesapeake Expressway sure seems to be doing a good business, even with that toll. I'd assume there are a few commuters from that part of NC.

If this proposed train could head all the way to downtown Norfolk and intersect with the Tide, that would be pretty awesome. Anyway, wasn't there a commuter line to that part of NC in the latest Hampton Roads Transit Vision Plan?

[varider]

officials push for high speed rail in hampton roads

NORFOLK

Local leaders have renewed efforts to push for high speed passenger train service to Hampton Roads, which they say is critically important to the region.

More than $9.3 billion in federal stimulus money has been set aside for faster trains, and the state is wrapping up a study of rail options. Officials are working to make sure the region is not left off the map.

"It is the single most important transportation issue for the region's future," Norfolk Mayor Paul Fraim said.

To be left out of a high-speed rail network, officials say, would further isolate Hampton Roads, possibly dealing a serious blow to the region's economy. The region was basically bypassed by the interstate highway system when Interstates 95 and 85 were built.

Because the region is divided by water, serving both the Peninsula and South Hampton Roads may be prohibitively expensive. Which means tough, possibly divisive, decisions loom.

Southside leaders, including Fraim and the mayors of Virginia Beach and Suffolk, have lobbied for a connection directly to South Hampton Roads.

[urbanvb]

I'm surprised to see no responses to this posting. I think it's critically important for HR to be part of the southeastern rail. This could be just the boost we need to make our area more dynamic and more attractive to companies. Southeastern rail could help put our region on the map.

[varider]

It would really be the best thing ever to happen to Hampton Roads. Could you guys imagine a "grand central station" at harbor park? that would be an amazing sight... a ferry dock, light rail stop, commuter rail stop, intercity rail stop, local bus, and max bus stops.. great to dream huh

[urbanlife]

It looks like Obama was thinking about Hampton Roads when he was drawing his High Speed Rail map recently.

[virginia pe]

It looks like Obama was thinking about Hampton Roads when he was drawing his High Speed Rail map recently.

First, the date on the map is 03/13/01, so it was W, not Obama, who was thinking of Hampton Roads.

Second, even though the map says Hampton Roads, I would be more excited if they drew the map to show the line actually going to Hampton Roads. They won't get much ridership on a high-speed rail line that ends in Kilmarnock! If they don't care enough to find out where Hampton Roads is located, are the really serious about getting us a high-speed rail line?

[CaveMaN]

First, the date on the map is 03/13/01, so it was W, not Obama, who was thinking of Hampton Roads.

Second, even though the map says Hampton Roads, I would be more excited if they drew the map to show the line actually going to Hampton Roads. They won't get much ridership on a high-speed rail line that ends in Kilmarnock! If they don't care enough to find out where Hampton Roads is located, are the really serious about getting us a high-speed rail line?

Yeah, that's pretty poor, even for just a presentation type graphic... Norfolk is like 60 miles direct south of where they say HR.

[urbanlife]

First, the date on the map is 03/13/01, so it was W, not Obama, who was thinking of Hampton Roads.

Second, even though the map says Hampton Roads, I would be more excited if they drew the map to show the line actually going to Hampton Roads. They won't get much ridership on a high-speed rail line that ends in Kilmarnock! If they don't care enough to find out where Hampton Roads is located, are the really serious about getting us a high-speed rail line?

Before you get all angry about the image, I posted that one because it was at a higher resolution image than the one that Obama was standing next to at a press conference where he pointed out that he wanted to push for high speed rail in this country....if W wanted it, he could of made it happen when the republicans controlled capitol hill....that obviously did not happen.

Besides, I dont think this map was meant to be an exact representation map, it is more about pointing out names of cities and regions it will connect through. We will probably hear more about the exacts about HSR this summer.

[Mobius57]

This should be in the Hampton Roads rail thread rather than the Norfolk Light Rail thread. Vdogg, could you consider moving it?

[Glassoul]

Before you get all angry about the image, I posted that one because it was at a higher resolution image than the one that Obama was standing next to at a press conference where he pointed out that he wanted to push for high speed rail in this country....if W wanted it, he could of made it happen when the republicans controlled capitol hill....that obviously did not happen.

Besides, I dont think this map was meant to be an exact representation map, it is more about pointing out names of cities and regions it will connect through. We will probably hear more about the exacts about HSR this summer.

We're currently stuck with a 1920's-1930's rail infrastructure running on 19th century routes. All this "new" funding for high speed rail is a joke. $8 billion won't get a high speed rail to anywhere. Despite all the talk of underfunding, Presidents Clinton and Bush both grew Amtrak's budget faster than inflation and/or the rate of economic growth. In fact, Bush doubled Amtak's operating budget before he left office, but even at $2.6 billion a year that only leaves about $600m/yr for improvements across the entire system.

To put that $8 billion into perspective, the cost to connect San Francisco to San Diego with a 200mph train is estimated to cost $40 billion alone, and that's before the standard 25%-30% cost overruns. In order to improve the transit time for Acela between D.C and NYC by 15 minutes, Amtrak estimated it would cost $500 million dollars (that was 2 years ago). Upgrading the entire N.E corridor to true high speed rail service would probably cost several hundred billion. Upgrading the track alone won't get you there. The entire system needs to essentially be ripped up and replaced. There are too many places where the turn radius is too small for high speed rail, particularly between NYC and Boston. NYC infrastructure alone is going to cost tens of billions, as new dedicated bridges would need to be constructed, underground tunnels, etc. You also need to remove a ton of at-grade crossings and replace them with overpasses. Newport News to Richmond presently has like 12 major at-grade road crossings.

[jeffconn]

So what do they mean by "Hampton Roads", the Peninsula or the Southside? Will they high-speed the Amtrak route to Newport News or the line next to Rte. 460 all the way into Norfolk?

[cpeakesqr]

The Map

Doesn't clear anything up though... judging by what I've read there's nothing that's actually been done. There's basically a plan to create plans, evaluate these plans, and fund some projects, again, no specifics whatsoever.

[burt]

This site doesn't address Norfolk (or Hampton Roads) connections but the map does show the route considerably south of Kilmarnock:

http://www.fra.dot.gov/US/content/31