Downtown Raleigh's Future

[ChiefJoJo]

FYI:

Downtown Raleigh Renaissance

What will Raleigh look like in 2008, 2009?

What can I expect in the next 10 years in Raleigh?

What's happening in Raleigh affects everyone in the Triangle!!!

Come to the Cardinal Club, get a birds eye view of downtown from the 28th floor and see what Raleigh will have to offer.

Learn about the Cardinal Club.

The Urban Design Center will give a slide presentation of all of the new condos and projects that are currently under construction and those that have been approved. The York Simpson Underwood Downtown Raleigh office will be available for questions and a walking tour of Fayetteville Street.

Bring your friends!!!

When: Saturday, May 5 at 10:00AM

Where: The Cardinal Club

150 Fayetteville Street Suite 2800

Raleigh NC 27601

If anyone is interested, send me a PM for the RSVP info.

[ChiefJoJo]

One last update from todays presentation:

• Kris Larson mentioned that the city used to have to fight with developers to include street retail, but now ones like Sandreuter (West at North) are willfully planning significant retail in their new buildings. Basically, the city is in a much stronger position to get quality developments now.
  
• Mitch Silver has big plans for the city's sustainability... he's got a big vision and would make it happen through "greening the [zoning] code." I believe the new comp plan will lead into new zoning regs, which will impact things like urban form.
  
• The DRA is looking at holding a state BBQ competition. It would pit ( ) BBQ-ers from all over the state in an eastern vs western style... the eastern-style cookers would be placed on the east side of Fayetteville St, and the western style (such as Lexington) on the west side. Hot damn! Great idea, building off previous ribfests we've had around the area, and would be an event for new visitors to downtown.
  
• I think I heard him right... Raleigh is set to quadruple it's downtown tax base within the previous 10 years! That tells us what we already knew... a healthy downtown really does benefit the rest of the city--even it's bottom line.
  

[RaleighRick]

Thanks for the update Chief. I had hoped to attend today but had an unexpected change of plans. It's exciting to start hearing more about the various projects and some timetable info. The BBQ competition sounds like a great idea.

[jumboman]

I think we could really use one of these any time now.

http://sdplfdn.org/index.htm (The New Main Library in downtown San Diego)

I think that San Diego's downtown is something that Raleigh could try to achieve. I'm thinking 40-50 years down the road, there could be a dense core of downtown Raleigh of 20 story buildings with a half dozen of high rises 30-40 stories, but it would also have unique centers throughout, each with its own feel (Glenwood, warehouse, ...)

Hmm, another random thought: If only we could put a man-made river going through part of downtown, we could create like a boardwalk district similar to San Antonio. I'm just trying to think how downtown Raleigh could be more of a destination, cause if you think about it, unless youre a preschooler going to the museums or youre older and just going to the restaurants and bars, there's not too much to attract visitors. (I have a friend whose parents are coming in town and she has no idea what to do with them)

[ChiefJoJo]

Here's an article on Downtown Hillsborough Street redevelopment. This is sort of a catchall for many of the previously mentioned proposals...

"Ten years from now it may be similar in scale to where Fayetteville Street is today," Mayor Charles Meeker said. "I don't think anyone realized how quickly downtown would develop or that Hillsborough Street -- even three years ago -- would be a major development corridor at this point."

The latest proof came last month when Winston Hotels announced plans for 200 hotel rooms and as many as 250 condominiums in a tower that could rise 25 stories. The project would replace a faded cluster of buildings catty-corner to Marsh's old shop.

Two blocks east, at the southwest corner of Hillsborough and Dawson streets, Reynolds Co. wants to build a 27-story tower with offices, condominiums, shops and hotel rooms.

TME Investments has discussed building hundreds of condos or apartments at the southwest corner of Hillsborough Street and Glenwood Avenue. That tower could rise 20 stories.

The Episcopal Diocese of North Carolina is even in on the action. It paid $2.75 million May 1 for a 19,000-square-foot office building on 0.67 of an acre bounded by McDowell, Morgan and Hillsborough streets. The diocese has no immediate plans to redevelop. "This is one way to plant the cross of Christ at the crossroads that is our state Capitol, where laws are made and business is transacted," Bishop Michael Curry said in a statement.

More projects could be in the works. Empire Properties, one of downtown's biggest developers, owns a 0.31-of-an-acre lot at the northwest corner of Hillsborough and Dawson streets.

And there's Marsh's former block. HBS Properties has assembled all but two tracts on the 1.15-acre block bounded by Edenton [this should be the railroad between the bridges], Morgan, West and Hillsborough streets. The group is trying to sway Montgomery & Associates, whose partners include Meeker, to sell its 0.16-of-an-acre sliver. If successful, the single-story storefronts dating to the 1930s could give way to shops and condos.

"It probably wants to be something bigger," said Peter Pace, the York Properties broker who represents HBS. He said there are no immediate plans for the property, although he fields calls regularly about its sale.

The projects are expected to push west, making a better connection between N.C. State University and downtown.

The Boulevard Co. of Charlotte plans to redevelop the former Tao Auto site at Hillsborough Street and Boylan Avenue.

FMW Development -- which assembled the land for Charlotte's Bank of America Stadium and Bank of America Corporate Center -- has a $7.15 million contract to buy a cluster of industrial buildings and empty lots on 5.6 acres near Morgan and Hillsborough streets.

I highlighted the ones we have only speculated on... the block where Marsh Woodwinds is located (map it) is one we've talk about before. The Empire parcel is located here, next to the Clarion. It is interesting to see the TME Investments project being discussed... up to 20 stories is impressive!

[Jones_]

So how is the Episcopal Diocese buying and holding this tract "getting in on the action"? Doesn't this even take it off the tax books? Other than the physical chapel, CBD churches ought to be paying their sizable property taxes like the rest of us. In some cities, I understand, that is indeed how things work, though I am not 100% sure.

[JeffC]

The block on which Marsh Woodwinds is located (map it) is one we've talk about before.

Is there a separate thread on the Marsh Woodwinds block? If so, where is it?

[ChiefJoJo]

Is there a separate thread on the Marsh Woodwinds block? If so, where is it?

FWIW, Jones first mentioned it here.

I haven't started a new topic on it since nothing has been revealed yet... no rumors of specifics, name, concepts, site plans, renderings, etc. Feel free to start one if you'd like to speculate what will happen there, but I typically use this thread for general speculation of future downtown happenings, until we see something materialize.

[okdlnbr]

This is a reply to an older question from chiefjojo about historic sites on Hillsborough.

Yes, the National Art Interiors building at Glenwood is historic. In fact, their foundation is tied into the old bridge's foundation. There were concerns that work on the new bridge might damage their building- one of many reasons that construction shifted to the opposite side of the tracks, allowing the Innovations and Marsh Woodwinds building to be taken.

[Jones_]

This is a reply to an older question from chiefjojo about historic sites on Hillsborough.

Yes, the National Art Interiors building at Glenwood is historic. In fact, their foundation is tied into the old bridge's foundation. There were concerns that work on the new bridge might damage their building- one of many reasons that construction shifted to the opposite side of the tracks, allowing the Innovations and Marsh Woodwinds building to be taken.

Yes there were concerns about that building being damaged but I doubt its actually tied to the bridge. Simple proximity would be enough reson for concern. The bridge was slowly cut using some sort of diamond drill The old bridge was built in the 1920's. The building looks to be 1890's vintage. Sanborn maps show frame dwellings here in the 1880's so there does not appear to be a contradiction. Also the building looks like it started out as a one story brick structure that had a second story added later. The dental molding was probably recreated from what it looked like when it was one story. There looks to be support steel bricked into place holding the second story in place. I have never been inside to see if additional supports were added inside. Also the bricked up windows seem to placed for a tallish one-story building with teh current windows arranged to look better on the two-story arrangement. It is common for older buildings with expansions to mimic the old look...Boyettes Automotive on Martin Street clearly has one half of its building built around 1910-20 and the other half probably in the 1940's but at a glance they look the same.

[ChiefJoJo]

This is a reply to an older question from chiefjojo about historic sites on Hillsborough.

Yes, the National Art Interiors building at Glenwood is historic. In fact, their foundation is tied into the old bridge's foundation. There were concerns that work on the new bridge might damage their building- one of many reasons that construction shifted to the opposite side of the tracks, allowing the Innovations and Marsh Woodwinds building to be taken.

I heard the same thing. That and some other factors (long spans, maintaining clearance for railroads and TTA below, very minimal grade change allowed to minimize impacts to buildings) made this--at the time--the most expensive bridge per square foot in NC. They had to use extra high-strength (50 ksi?) structural steel for the bridge... if you look, from the Morgan St bridge, the girders are much shallower than a typical bridge to accomodate the constraints. This is part of the reason it took so long to complete.

[ChiefJoJo]

A WRAL series called WRAL Listens, convened a panel to discuss Raleigh and it's it's future. I watched the edited portion on TV and they seemed to agree that in general, some aspect of growth (schools, roads, transit, etc) or leadership would be the #1 issue going forward in the city & region. Lot's of talk about downtown as well.

[ChiefJoJo]

From New Raleigh: Dan Douglas (UDC) on Downtown Raleigh's future... some snippets:

[fern]

All I want for Christmas is . . . .

-A movie theater downtown

-A downtown gym

-Downtown retail to keep it hopping on the weekends

-A downtown, deli-style grocery store*

-My two front teeth

*Sorry, Seaboard. You aren't walking distance for me. I just want a small, storefront grocery store -- produce, pre-prepared deli foods, frozen pastas, milk, wine, good bread. I'll pay more for that stuff, but I'm not likely to pay significantly more for staples. I'll still go to Food Lion/Kroger for flour and grits.

The density is there -- or nearly there. Right now, the residents in downtown condos East of Fayetteville St. vote at the Chavis Community Center. This precinct currently stretches all the way to Rock Quarry Rd. I've heard that the downtown portion of the precinct is approaching the critical population (~3,000) that would constitute a new, independent precinct.

Where do residents at the Dawson currently vote? Does the West portion of downtown have an independant precinct yet?

[RaleighRob]

All I want for Christmas is . . . .

-A movie theater downtown

-A downtown gym

-Downtown retail to keep it hopping on the weekends

-A downtown, deli-style grocery store*

-My two front teeth

*Sorry, Seaboard. You aren't walking distance for me. I just want a small, storefront grocery store -- produce, pre-prepared deli foods, frozen pastas, milk, wine, good bread. I'll pay more for that stuff, but I'm not likely to pay significantly more for staples. I'll still go to Food Lion/Kroger for flour and grits.

The density is there -- or nearly there. Right now, the residents in downtown condos East of Fayetteville St. vote at the Chavis Community Center. This precinct currently stretches all the way to Rock Quarry Rd. I've heard that the downtown portion of the precinct is approaching the critical population (~3,000) that would constitute a new, independent precinct.

Where do residents at the Dawson currently vote? Does the West portion of downtown have an independant precinct yet?

Here's a precinct map: http://www.wall-maps.com/custom/board-of-e...ns-map-over.htm There's a ITB enlargement on the bottom right. I know when I lived near St. Mary's school, I had to vote at NCSU for some reason (talk about parking issues..downtown's a breeze compared to them). From what I see on the map, there's still no total-downtown precinct yet. Odd, I know....however I know several downtownites have enjoyed being able to do early voting at the Board's offices downtown, so that's a plus at least.

For grocery...don't get too optimistic yet. Folks are watching Capital City grocery to see if they make it the second time around. If they don't succeed, I doubt many investers will want to start another one. That's why even if you can't walk there, a short drive to them does downtown as a whole much more good than driving anywhere else.

For gyms...well, there are two now in downtown...one at Seaboard and another at Glenwood South. Actually technically there are two more...the Central YMCA on Hillsborough and a small weightlifter's gym in the warehouse district. Oh, and at least two "private instructor" shops downtown too...almost forgot them. I just don't see the demand being high enough any time soon for any more...especially when half of the condo buildings going up in the future have fitness rooms in their plans. Personally I think there's more market in other ITB areas outside of downtown---other than the ones mentioned, the only other ITB gym is up by the Costco. (I think one near Cameron Village or Five Points would do really well if someone could find the space.)

For movie theatre, that'd also be more demand issues I guess, that will improve with more residents. For the time being, I think between the Imax, Rialto and sorta-nearby Mission Valley, there isn't enough demand for more....yet. And with the growing popularity of DVDs, digital cable, etc, I don't see that demand growing too much soon, to be honest.

For downtown retail, I 100% agree with you there...there's multiple posts here on Urbanplanet about that!

One thing that I'd personally add to the wish list is having Wake County Libraries open up a *TRUE* downtown branch. (Cameron Village and New Bern Ave locations are nice...nothing against them...but I don't count them.) I'm quite envious of cities like Durham and Winston-Salem that have this...it's Raleigh's turn now!

Edited December 14, 2007 by RaleighRob

[fern]

Geez. Why such a scrooge, RaleighRob? I guess I can't have my two front teeth either?

Actually, I see your point on a lot of these issues. But I'm not ready to discount my downtown desires yet.

The kind of store that I envision would use a different model than Capital City Grocery. CCG is trying to be a single source grocery store -- competing with the mainstream grocery stores that have lower rents, easier accessibility, and serve a larger geographic/demographic population. A deli-style grocery store would only occupy a fraction of the square footage, and it would not try to compete with the mainstream grocery stores. I imagine it as a Fresh Market (which I consider "destination" grocery store) with about 10% of the selection/inventory -- and without the classical music. A deli counter could cater to a downtown lunch crowd (foot traffic) in addition to a condo population that has sacrificed a large, accomodating kitchen for a different kind of lifestyle. I'm not a condo person, but if I were, I imagine that my kitchen inventory would be pretty spare. I'd go to the store several times a week to pick up enough food for one or two dinners -- and my meals would be SIMPLE. A pack of pre-washed greens, frozen pasta, and a few olives from the deli. A pack of pre-made sushi and a bottle of wine. Chicken salad, tuna salad, bean salad, fruit salad.

Likewise, a downtown movie theater would need to be a "destination" movie theater. I'll drive to the Galaxy in Cary or the Varsity in Chapel Hill to see a movie that I can't see at Mission Valley. In fact, I frequent those theaters far more often than Mission Valley. I think a lot of people would come downtown to see an Art House film. Anyone ever heard of the Gene Siskel Film Center in Chicago?? http://www.artic.edu/webspaces/siskelfilmcenter/ Do you think Raleigh could support something like that? I'm not sure, but I sure would love it.

The gym? OK . . . I give. It probably wouldn't work.

For the SE Raleigh folks . . . I just found out that the Chavis Community Center has a weight room/fitness center, and you can get a month-by-month membership. I think I may check that out for the post-Christmas winter months.

[fern]

Oh . . . and a library. What a wonderful addition to the list!!! That would be excellent.

[RaleighRob]

Geez. Why such a scrooge, RaleighRob? I guess I can't have my two front teeth either?

Sorry! I wasn't trying to be scrooge, honest!

I think my point was mostly that we really need to beef up business some for the places that are in (or around) downtown first...while trying to bring up the downtown population numbers....before we can have some of these additional things. Cuz you gotta work hard to prove to the business folks that there is a market for it.

That's all I was saying. Honest!

[Jones_]

I completely love the Deli/grocery idea....there are many such places in places like NYC and the outskirts of DC. I imagine Third Place in Five Points could have a sister store in the Kerry Catherine space that worked like this......but that does little for downtown proper. Contis is kinda close, and Square Rabbit has a sandwich counte with soup and sweets.(is that right? I get White and Square rabbit confused by name only, the other being the bookstore). If Neomonde comes to the Helig-Levine space it also is kinda close in concept if its like the one near Waffle House. A perfect spot for such a place would be one of the storefronts in the 200-block of Wilmington St or the overflow seating area of Brass Grill.

Edited December 14, 2007 by Jones133

[cophead567]

DTR needs late night pizza. Plain and simple.

[ncwebguy]

The deli/grocer concept is something I was hoping the old Jimmy's City Market (NE Martin/Wilmington corner) would evolve into but I could see it as being a street level tenant at the Edison as well. Gandalfo's is good, but they only do sandwiches. Morning Times could still evolve into that kind of place. They could offer catering services for office lunches and handle some of the convention center crowd as well. Sam and Wally's in the basement of the Sheraton is pretty good, but doesn't stay open late enough and isn't convenient to any of the condo buildings.

The movie theater could be a something for conventioner/visitors to do, but that wouldn't be enough to keep it going. A revival art house might work, but downtown rents would make it an uphill battle. A smaller theater on site 2 or 3, between the CC hotel and Raleigh Memorial Auditorium, would be a good asset for the city/county...

The YWCA on East Hargett has some classes but no workout equipment, and don't do a good job of getting the word out. In addition to Chavis, Roberts Park (East Martin a few blocks east of Tarboro) and the Halifax center (Halifax Street a few blocks north of Peace) have workout equipment rooms as well, though they aren't as well stocked as Peak or Seaboard Fitness, but at least as good as a condo or hotel's gym.

[magicmk]

DTR needs late night pizza. Plain and simple.

All of these people that relocate to Raleigh from New York every month, and none of them have any connections to the pizza business. I'm disappointed. I would die for a good, authentic New York or Chicago style pizza place here in Raleigh. And make it big, because if you build it - oh yes, they will come.

A signature library building downtown in Raleigh is a TERRIFIC idea. My question would be, where to put it? (Maybe where that ugly First Citizens bank building is... haha, I'm kidding... sort of) It's funny that I haven't seen the idea mentioned anywhere in any city planning proposals. Maybe they can find excuses to not justify the idea for now, but eventually the downtown resident population will reach a point to where it's going to be in big demand. It would be a good idea to keep a downtown library idea in front of city planners as something to consider for the not so distant future, before they realize they run out of good locations to put it.

[DPK]

I would die for a good, authentic New York or Chicago style pizza place here in Raleigh.

You're making me hungry and it's not lunch yet, haha. I'd also be supportive for a bakery that produces authentic New York bagels and other pastries downtown. I hate it when people tell me, "oh, just go to Brueggers to get bagels" and my reply is usually along the lines of "son you have no idea what a real bagel is".

I'm picky about my bagels, I admit it, haha.

[DanRNC]

^Randy's in Durham has the best NY style pizza I've had in NC.

[Cary NC]

So what do think will come first to DT Raleigh?.... Movie theater or a big time retail chain. ie Borders, Barnes and Noble, Target.. something like that.

Edited January 8, 2008 by Cary NC