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2030 Transit Plan


monsoon

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  • Usually Heavy Rail is used to describe trains like you would see in the NYC subway, DC or in Atlanta. These are the heavy electrified trains that are high capacity and can make very frequent stops. This is by far the most expensive form of rail transit. A lot of people mistake light rail for this, but the system in Charlotte is not heavy rail. Because of the cost, there presently are no new heavy rail systems being built in the USA.

  • Light rail is a lighter version of heavy rail. It has electrified trains, but they are smaller and don't have the capacity of heavy rail, and in order to save costs they often cross or run in highway ROWs. There are no controlled access stations. The South line and the Northeast line are light rail.

  • The North line is called commuter rail. This is where technology closer to an Amtrak train is placed on existing rail lines to move people to more distant places. It's characterized by fewer stations, higher speeds (70+ mph) and less frequent stops. Many times it is designed as one way service as in the case of phase 1 of the north line. There are options using more advanced trains that would make it closer to LRT service. They are not being considered for the north line.

In Charlotte's case, they have pretty much decided to build rail transit down existing rail corridors.

When this is light rail they have to build two way electrified track and these tracks can't be used for freight traffic as the feds do not allow LRVs to share tracks with freight. In both the south and the northeast lines, most of the cost is going to build this track from scratch including the bridges, railroad crossings, etc. The end result will be a train that travels both ways and can have 7 minute response times. It is relatively expensive because of the need to run the electrical wires, and the construction of tracks from scratch.

They choose commuter rail on the North line because it is a freight line, and to make it a LRT they would have to negotiate with NS to take the one freight train/day off that track or have them run it at night. The two cost drivers on this line are that they have to rebuild the rails as they are in bad shape, and there are 170 grade crossings to contend with. What has not been considered is that once they make this investment, how much more would it cost to build something more useable as described above. CATS pretty much, from what I have seen, as a one tract mind and they will pick a solution, then drive the design and numbers so that approach is the one that rises to the top of the heap.

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I wonder whether the state would be more inclined to still do their part for transit. It seems to me that state leaders could just be viewing this as a snub of the state from Washington and still play their part. Most of these lines would be viable with older rules, and those rules were only really tightened in order to help reduce the federal deficit in a plowshares to sword conversion.

As for the specifics of the 2030 plan, there were a few surprises to me that hadn't really come up in recent public meetings.

- The NE line is hands down the next line CATS will pursue. It seemed likely, but the fact that it was almost immediate in all scenarios was quite surprising to me. I like this line quite a bit, but I do see a number of flaws with it that I'm worried has pushed costs up too much. Primarily, I regret that they were so tied to N. Tryon, which requires expensive right of way acquisition. With such a large potential project going up by City Blvd, at the site of the rumored Crescent IKEA project, I would wish they could figure out how to participate in it to both increase ridership, and reduce costs through a greenfield right of way.

- The NE line is bloody expensive. $750m is just nuts. I remember thinking a while back how expensive it seemed at $450mil.

- The east-west streetcar is back to phasing, that ends at Presby and not Plaza-Midwood. Just recently that phasing was universally said to be dropped, so it is interesting that it is now back. If scenarios B or D are selected, that corridor is basically toast, which would be a big shame, as I believe it would have increased density on an already very dense corridor. I am certain that this was pushed out primarily because it had lower inflation risk, considering there is no right of way needed.

I like scenarios A and C as it prioritizes the NE, E-NW and N lines before the SE and W lines, which is consistent with my own personal priority.

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My concern with the NE line is that it will take so long to build, and cost so much money, that people will become indifferent to the whole thing. We'll hear smart aleck remarks about it (like we make all the time about completing 485 or finishing the Independence upgrades.)

The North line or streetcars could be built in just a few years, and would keep the public more engaged.

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My concern with the NE line is that it will take so long to build, and cost so much money, that people will become indifferent to the whole thing. We'll hear smart aleck remarks about it (like we make all the time about completing 485 or finishing the Independence upgrades.)

The North line or streetcars could be built in just a few years, and would keep the public more engaged.

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I appears the North is going to fight the plans put forth by CATS. The Huntersville Mayor, Kim Phillips, is quoted in the paper as saying. "I'm not going to say exactly what we're going to do", .... But if anybody thinks we're going to lie down on the Northeast track, well, that's not going to happen. We're not going to take part in any Snidely Whiplash scenes on their behalf". That might not mean much to the younger viewers here but I take that to mean the Northern mayors are going to fight the plans, and that means all 4 alternatives put forth by CATS, to build the NE line immediately.

The paper has an independent editorial that pretty much lambasts CATS for choosing the NE line only for the reason that it is "The most expensive one to build". I have not read the entire set of articles but it appears this is a long way from being over with.

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Tober's argument seems to be that the NE line is the only one that could get Fed funding, and it it will get more expensive the longer we wait.

But so what? The other lines get more expensive too. Inflation and growth affects everything.

Maybe if the N line and streetcars get built next, and the lines are popular, there could be support for upping the tax (or whatever is needed) to fund the NE and SE lines.

CATS comes across as stacking the deck, and not impartially analyzing, by only presenting NE build-first options.

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The paper said this about Tober's plans to build the University Line next.

"...the best strategy for a fledgling transit system staggering under the weight of rising construction prices and double-your-money cost overruns, is to jump into the most-expensive project it can find?.... It's like the captain of the Titanic ordering his officers to chart a course for an even bigger iceberg."

Well I am glad that at least someone besides myself has said this. It is a lame idea to try and get funding for a billion dollar expansion to an existing light rail project before it is completed and carries its first passenger. It's double lame when you consider the present performance of the current CATS staff in actually pulling off a project with the cost and timetables they first promise.

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I think the point is that the 4 alternatives, all which assume the NE line will be built regardless of the rest of the lines, are not acceptable.

My guess is if they want the continued participation of the northern 1/5th of the county, then they will have to come up with Alternative E.

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If they pull out of the system then most certainly Iredell will never join and that means CATS can pretty much forget about getting any money from the NCDOT. I would not underestimate the difference in getting state funding for a regional transit system, vs one that solely serves the city of Charlotte.

I do find it amusing that CATS plans are being derided using visions of a Titanic headed for larger icebergs and comparisons to Dudley Do-Right cartoons. It's not so funny however when the realization hits home they are not far off the mark.

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According to the Cornelius Mayor, Gary Knox the Northern towns have asked CATS to produce other scenarios which do not include the NE line being built first. (or possibly at all) They want these scenerios or alternatives as CATS calls them to be produced in time for the November 8th meeting.

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** Cough ** Lowe's ** Cough Cough **

Mt Mourne should incorporate, IMO, which would put a majority of the Lowe's and Langtree $$$'s back into the town, and limit how much goes to the county.....then Mt. Mourne could easily contribute the needed $$$.

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Yeah, hopefully Lowe's will step up to the plate. I know that even if CATS didn't have a perception problem, then Iredell County still wouldn't pay their share as they feel they need to spend money on Roads for the County....not rail. It is going to have to be private companies and/or Mooresville that comes up with this money. Iredell County is out of the picture for the forseeable future.

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Well there won't be anything close to definate numbers until the construction bids come in and that won't be till a few months before construction starts. Every number thrown out before then is just an estimate.

Right now Iredell is being asked to contribute $250K for the next phase of the North Line and here was what the Iredell County Commisioner Steve Johnson's response has been:

"I don't think there's a vote on the board to contribute any money on it. I agree with the John Locke Foundation: It's a 19th-century solution to a 21st-century problem. If you're going to help transportation, you need to spend it on roads rather than on commuter rail."

CATS could have the best reputation in the world and the current Iredell Commision would not give any money for rail. They are fundamentally opposed to it.

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Interesting. Since it's quite plausible that squabbling will keep Iredell out of the picture completely, that would leave Davidson as the terminus... which they don't want to be. Even Davidson's vote might be negotiable to some other line, if that's what CATS proposes. Although perhaps the maintenance facility for the trains will be kept in uptown Charlotte, which would solve that problem.

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Well, I'm thinking that the new Langtree development would have enough density to be involuntarily annexed and Lowe's may want to be annexed if they can have a municipal tax rates low enough....well, I just checked Iredell tax rates, and it's not like Mecklenburg that has a higher county tax rate for unicorporated areas.....still, some land owners may prefer an incorporated Mt. Mourne as opposed to being absorbed by Mooresville in the future, which has the highest tax rate of the 5 existing municipalities in Iredell.

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It's a moot point as Mt. Mourne isn't an incorporated place in NC and I have never heard of any plan to make it as such. We are talking about a place where basically two roads cross. It has a post office about the size of a large tool shed, a church, and a few places to get your car or boat fixed. Langtree could just as easily be annexed by Davidson which already has part of its city limits in Iredell county.

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