Florida or North Carolina?

[RiversideGator]

But one exagerated fact does not deserve another.

This is true. But, I wish someone would post some actual figures on how much rail transit is in Miami v. NC.

[bic]

Ridership figures from Miami-Dade County Transit:

Metrorail averages approximately 48,039 daily and experienced 41,964,000 during FY 2003. Metromover averages approximately 18,614 daily and experienced 6,798,887 during FY 2003. That's a total of 66,653 daily and 48,762,887 for FY 2003 as far as Miami rail ridership goes.

I was not able to find rail ridership statistics for North Carolina that did not include Amtrak, but I did find some projected ridership figures for Charlotte's light rail South Line (initial line). Projected weekday ridership is expected to be 9,100 for the 9.6 mile route. Perhaps a Charlotte forumer could provide some more information.

EDIT: I forgot to note that Miami's Metromover circuit length is 1.9 miles. This is roughly one-fifth the length of Charlotte's initial light rail line and experiences double the amount of daily ridership expected of the Charlotte line.

[Viper]

Jacksonville's Skyway gets 3,500 per day on the 2.5 trip with no stops at any residential neighborhood.

If Charlottes is 9.6 miles, goes through residentials and only gets 9,100, then it as as much a failure as you claim Jax's Skyway.

[Aessotariq]

The entire Metromover system is 4.4 miles long. The downtown inner loop is 1.9 miles. There are three loops, the Downtown inner loop, Omni outer loop, and Brickell outer loop. Metromover connects with Metrorail at two stations: Government Center and Brickell stations. Metromover makes it easy to get around downtown, especially for Metrorail riders, who transfer from the two stations. Best of all, it's free.

Here's a neat little map of the heavy rail projects to be completed within the next 10 years. The blue is the existing 22-mile line.

Expansions within the next 10 years include:

• 2.6-mile heavy rail Earlington Heights-Miami Intermodal Center connector (red)... connecting to Miami's new "Grand Central Station" building under construction (consolidated rental car facility, Metrorail, Metrobus, Tri-Rail, Amtrak, Greyhound, taxi terminal, airport transfer)

• 9.5-mile heavy rail North Corridor (orange), connect MIC up to Broward County line. Broward will continue the alignment with light rail or bus rapid transit

• 10.4-mile heavy rail FIU-MIC east-west connector (green), connecting Florida International University, a commercial corridor, western suburbs with airport and intermodal facility.

• 22.5 miles of heavy rail to be completed by 2014.

• This map doesn't show the Miami Streetcar line, phase I of which includes about 7 miles of light rail streetcar being built from downtown to the Edgewater neighborhood.

Here is what neighboring Broward County is proposing, pending a sales tax vote in 2006. To get an idea of the scale, Broward is about 22 miles from north to south. The inset includes a streetcar system within downtown Fort Lauderdale. The red line along University Drive would be a BRT continuation of the Metrorail North Corridor (orange line) from Miami.

Tri-Rail's ridership averages 10,151 passengers per day (source). A significant number of cross-county commuters transfer to Metrorail toward downtown Miami.

Tri-Rail's double-tracking efforts along its 72-mile corridor are being done in segments. Presently commuter rail and freight run along a single track, which results in longer headways and limited bidirectional service. Once the double-tracking is complete, trains will run every 20 minutes (as opposed to every hour at present), dramatically improving service and helping increase ridership:

[bic]

The entire Metromover system is 4.4 miles long. The downtown inner loop is 1.9 miles. There are three loops, the Downtown inner loop, Omni outer loop, and Brickell outer loop.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My mistake. I saw a map of the Metromover system and mistook a couple of the color-coded lines for future routes. 4.4 miles it is.

[RiversideGator]

I think the stats just offered speak for themselves as to rail transit.

[prahaboheme]

Orlando Commuter Rail is projected to be up and running by 2009, and now that each county has agreed to fund its portion of the cost, that major hurdle has been crossed. 75% of the cost will be picked up by the state and federal gvts.

[RiversideGator]

Will the Orlando system include any stops at any of the theme parks? If not, I wonder how successful it will be as tourists, in my opinion, are the most likely users of mass transit in any city.

[monsoon]

I think the stats just offered speak for themselves as to rail transit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed they do. From even the very optimistic numbers I see here. Only 70K people/day use rail mass transit in Fla even though we are talking about a state that has 17M people in it.

Much smaller Charlotte's very first LRT is projected to initially carry 15K/day when the system starts up and once the current plan is built out there will be 250,000 people/day using the system. Charlotte/Meck has 800K people in comparison.

I don't think anyone has to be too much of a math genius to figure out who is doing the better job here.

Regarding Orlando, as I said earlier, Orlando's system as a vote for 25% of its cost from the 5 local govenments. I will be much more excited about this plan once the Feds respond to the feasibility of the project. They end up shooting down 4 out of every 5 plans submitted. Given that Orlando is the most unsafe metro in the country for pedestrians, they are going to have a major uphill battle to convince anyone that people will use this system.

[RiversideGator]

monsoon: I must say that use projections for mass transit are basically meaningless. They are almost always high because they are issued by companies that have a vested interest in the numbers being high (or else the mass transit might not be built). Again, I think every city should do this and I hope Charlotte is successful, but let's wait till the hay is in the barn before we add things up.

[bobliocatt]

Indeed they do.  From even the very optimistic numbers I see here.  Only 70K people/day use rail mass transit in Fla even though we are talking about a state that has 17M people in it. 

Much smaller Charlotte's very first LRT is projected to initially carry 15K/day when the system starts up and once the current plan is built out there will be 250,000 people/day using the system.  Charlotte/Meck has 800K people in comparison.

I don't think anyone has to be too much of a math genius to figure out who is doing the better job here. 

Regarding Orlando,  as I said earlier, Orlando's system as a vote for 25% of its cost from the 5 local govenments.  I will be much more excited about this plan once the Feds respond to the feasibility of the project.  They end up shooting down 4 out of every 5 plans submitted.  Given that Orlando is the most unsafe metro in the country for pedestrians, they are going to have a major uphill battle to convince anyone that people will use this system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I tend to think otherwise. Orlando's original light rail proposal in the late 1990s, had already been approved by the Fed/State governments, who were willing to cover 80% of the costs. Unfortunately, Orange County killed the project, by not agreeing to cover its small share. Given that Orlando is a tourist mecca, there's only one congested interstate in the metro, all local authorities have agreed to fund their share and that the metro is a dangerous place for pedestrians, Federal funding should be the least of their worries.

As far as Charlotte's projected numbers, lets wait to the system is actually built, up and running, before we get down on our knees and marvel at it's success. After all, the Jax Skyway also had some healthy ridership projections before it was built and Boston's Big Dig was a lot cheaper than it eventually turned out to be. Plus as I said earlier, Charlotte will be the most spreadout and least dense metro in this country to have a LRT line. This is a big risk, that hopefully will pay off, for Charlotte and other low density sprawling metros in the future.

[prahaboheme]

Will the Orlando system include any stops at any of the theme parks?  If not, I wonder how successful it will be as tourists, in my opinion, are the most likely users of mass transit in any city.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Riverside, this commuter system is intended to ease the congestion on I-4 for commuters from Osceola, Volusia and Seminole counties into downtown. So basically, its a local system, not tourist. The lightrail proposal, with a projected path that will start at the airport and end at the convention center, hooks up with the commuter rail at the Sand Lake station, and will most defintely be implimented for tourist use.

[monsoon]

Riverside, that is fine. Forgetting projections and plans on paper, here is a ranking or what is currently happening with rail transit in both states. I still argue for its size, NC is doing much better than Fla. The only place in Fla, that has anything close to reasonable rail transit is Miami yet it is bigger than Charlotte and RDU combined. Not a good showing if you ask me.

1. Miami (5M metro)

   heavy rail line

   commuter rail system

   metro mover

2. Charlotte (1.3M metro)

   2.5 mile Trolley System

   LRT under construction

   35 Commuter rail system in environmental studies

   Southern terminus for NC intra-state railsystem

   Southern terminus for SEHSPR (in Tier II environmental studies)

3. RDU (1.2M metro)

   35 mile dual tracked commuter rail system, awaiting Full Funding letter, Contract awarded for trainsets.

   Main hub for NC intra-state railsystem

   Detailed track and Route design taking place for SEHSR from RDU to Richmond

4. Tampa (2.3M metro)

   2.5 Mile Historic Trolley

5. Jacksonville (1.2M metro)

   Skyway system (closes on Sunday)

[RiversideGator]

monsoon: On a per capita basis, NC may have a slight edge if all the proposals are built. I see what you mean. I hope it all goes through and I hope FL has more proposals for the same in the future.

Praha: Thanks for the info. It sounds like a good plan. I guess there is no way to attach any transit to the Kingdom Of Disney?

[Viper]

250,000 people/day using the system

Will never happen. At least not in ourt lifetimes.

LA's subway barely hits over 100k per day. The 13.7 mile Gold Line only gets 14k per day, subway and three light-rail lines is 218,000 and LA is one of the most dense cities in America.

You forgot to add the 29 mile BRT system in Jax (in development). It might not be rail but it is a mass transit system in the same style.

[RiversideGator]

I must have missed that 250,000 number in monsoon's statement. That is a much higher ridership total than is possible in the current environment in most American large cities (2 million plus MSA), much less Charlotte. I wish someone could post which American cities have actual ridership of 250,000 plus. I would guess maybe NYC and Chicago only. These are very ambitious numbers and, I suspect, grossly inflated.

You forgot to add the 29 mile BRT system in Jax (in development). It might not be rail but it is a mass transit system in the same style.

Viper: And, I believe the BRT system in Jacksonville is supposed to be the precursor to a countywide light rail system. I wish we had gone light rail first or at least something using the existing rail network as Lakelander has proposed. As for the Skyway, dont forget that this crosses the river from the CBD to the Southbank where thousands of residential units are under construction or planned. So, ridership on this system will go nowhere but up. Once this happens, expansion will likely occur and the system can be tied into countywide light rail.

[Viper]

Indeed it will. The Skyway passes within 1000 feet of almost 4,000 units planned or already U/C and another 2,000 units planned only another 1,000 feet away.

Yes, the BRT will lay ground work for light rail but I didn't mention it since I'm not as familiar with its planning or funding.

[Aessotariq]

Since we're mentioning BRT as well, I should mention the South Dade Busway in Miami. It's currently undergoing Phase II-b of a major extension right now that will take it to the southern extreme of the county, at Homestead and Florida City near SW 344th Street. It is a precursor to light rail or heavy rail extension in the future.

The Busway's ridership is particularly high among "choice riders", i.e., people with cars who choose to take the bus instead of driving. It has been so successful that its ridership is actually higher on the weekends than during the week. Ridership averages 12,500 on weekdays, and 13,600 on weekends. The northern terminus of the Busway is the Dadeland South Metrorail station, which you can take up to downtown Miami and points north.

Also, daily ridership on Miami-Dade's bus system averages 208,000. Rail may begin to absorb some of that bus volume and increase the number of choice riders, but I do think it's going to be a while before we see ridership in the hundreds of thousands. We're slightly under half way from 100k with just one rail line... With better intermodal connectivity, more track, and greater high-density TOD, reaching 100k isn't too far-fetched. With Miami-Dade's and Broward's population expected to increase by a million each in 30 years, we may see that sooner than we think.

[monsoon]

I must have missed that 250,000 number in monsoon's statement.  That is a much higher ridership total than is possible in the current environment in most American large cities (2 million plus MSA), much less Charlotte. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If the entire Charlotte system is built out that is the projection for the system. (2025) At the momemt this would include 5 rail transit corridors (4 LRT, 1 commuter rail line), crosstown modern electric street car system, a downtown circle loop electric street car line, and the Historic Trolley. This will be centered around a new Multimodal Train Station in the downtown area that will include the above mentioned mass transit system, the city bus system, the North Carolina Railroad, the High Speed Rail project, and Amtrak. I don't know of any other city of Charlotte's size in the nation that has such ambitious rail plans. (and the ability to pay for it)

BTW, the similar DART LRT and Commuter rail in Dallas is now approaching a ridership of 100K/day. I will note this exceeds the entire ridership of the state of Fla.

To answer the question about cities that have ridership above 250,000 beyond Chicago and NYC.

There is Washington DC's Metrorail system which has an average daily ridership of 500,000 and 750,000 on a weekday. Its busiest day was 850,000, and ridership increases every year. It should be noted this system is the same age as the one in Miami. DC did it correctly, Miami has not managed to even get a 10th of the number of people on the rails in the same period. I was surprised by this.

Septa in Philly has an average daily ridership of 850,000.

MBTA in Boston is around 820,000 average per day.

BART in San Francisco's average daily ridership exceeds 300K/day. This does not include the City operated Trolleys, LRT and Streetcars which averages another 151K so we have a total around 450K/day

And this one is really good. Atlanta's Marta carries 286,000 on a weekday. Again this system is the same age as Miami's

Miami's ridership is dismal when compared to its peers. If you are looking for rail mass transit, Florida is not your state.

[RiversideGator]

All of the metros which you cited as having more than 250,000 in daily ridership have between 3 and 10 times more people in their metro areas. All I am saying is 250,000 for Charlotte in the foreseeable future is stretching it. I certainly hope the Charlotte area gets this done though. As for FL rail transit, I think Miami will pass 250k per day about 50 years before Charlotte will.

[monsoon]

Portland's metro is roughly the same size as Charlotte, and its ridership numbers already exceed Miami. I don't think Miami will ever get to 250K myself.

[up+down=midtown]

youre talking about portland and city with great urban planning and great mass transit compared to miami which is trying to improve urban planning and is trying to upgrade and install new mass transit such as streetcar,metrorail expansion,new bus routes and in the future maybe even a light rail into miami beach or an expansion of the metromover.

[Aessotariq]

Also, all of the cities mentioned, except Atlanta and Dallas, experienced significant pre-automobile, pre-WWII growth, so their propensity for transit is naturally going to be greater, and the mindset is already there. Atlanta was fortunate to get enough money to build two lines that extended in all four directions when it had the chance.

Portland is just a special case on its own. The planning there is simply extraordinary and serves as the model that should be emulated everywhere.

[monsoon]

The mindset certainly wasn't in DC. The Metrorail system there is only 30 years old and at the time, most of the middle class had abandoned it for suburban Virginia & Maryland.

[bobliocatt]

The mindset may have not been there at the time the metro was built in DC, but its definately there now.