The Southeast US

[monsoon]

The decline of the inner city is not recent. It really began in the 1920s -1930s. At that time cities were seen as dehumanizing crowded places where the upper class took advangage of the poor by forcing them to work in the factories of the industrial age. Many intellectuals of the time went as far as proposing to tear down cities. This view persisted through the depression, through WWII and once the prosperity of the post-War time came, and the GI bill which gave millions college degrees at government expense, the vast exodus began to the suburbs.

If you look at any TV show in the 1950s, they were all focused on the suburbs because that was considered the place to be. Even Lucy and Ricky decided to leave dirty dangerous NYC on their very popular TV show I Love Lucy for a large suburban house in Conn. It was worsened when court ordered busing for school desegregation occured in the late 1960s and early 1970s as Whites fled the cities for mostly white school systems. (later to be followed by middle class Blacks).

The liberalism spoke of above was also anti-city. There was a big backlash against technology in the 1960s again because of dehumanization, but in addition now included the new environmental movement. This movement blamed pollution and loss of resources, over population etc on technology. One of the responses was self sufficiency so again people left cities.

This was not a Southern phenomenon. But one of the interesting side effects was that people leaving the large Northeastern and Midwestern cities did not move to just to local suburbs, but fled to the promised land of the South and the West. Once cheap air conditioning became available people could move anywhere, and we are where we are today.

As mentioned above there is this notion from new urbanists that everyone should be living in a condo or apartment in a very densely populated setting. But I have never seen any of these people address the reasons that people have been leaving the cities for the last 80 years. There seems to be huge memory block. I personally don't think most people want to move back to the cities they have been abandoning for the last 80 years and are perfectly happy in the suburbs. I don't see this as a bad thing either.

[alslex1]

  I personally don't think most people want to move back to the cities they have been abandoning for the last 80 years and are perfectly happy in the suburbs.  I don't see this as a bad thing either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. I'm not sure where all this "anti - suburb" talk is coming from and bad mouthing (again) to southerners. The last time I checked northern cities- New York included had suburbs AND sprawl. Was Levittown, New York (Long Island) not a suburb!?! There is a difference between sprawl and suburbs, not every suburb has Wal- Marts filling the landscape.

[Charleston native]

I did not mean to suggest it was the sole cause of suburbanization.  There are many causes of that, in my opinion.  In the South, these include:  advent of the automobile, advent of highways, subsidization of suburbia by govt, bad zoning, integration, etc.  As to the vagrancy issue though, they do cause people to avoid downtown.  People do not want to see this kind of human debris.  It is sad that people like this are living on the streets, and they should, for their own good as well as others, be removed from the streets.  No sane person would prefer to live out of a stolen grocery cart underneath the overhang of a building.  Just yesterday, three vacant historic houses burned in Jacksonville and I guarantee you the fire was started by a deranged homeless person (it has happened before).  This is another example of their deletrious effects on urban life.  And, as I said, both parties are guilty with regard to unleashing the "homeless" on America.  I just think we need some sanity in our government as to this issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Riverside, you are so right. Vagrancy was not the sole cause of suburbanization, but it definitely feeds the fire to people who are looking for pleasant, safe places to live, such as my fiancee and me. If you walk around parts of DT Columbia, for instance, you come across quite a few vagrants who are either mentally unstable or are just looking for another handout to get either liquor or drugs.

I do agree with most of the posts since my previous one as well. monsoon, you did a very good analysis of how the suburbs exploded and specifically when it happened. All of these are very good points. They need to be included when new urbanists start stating their dreams of an "urban utopia".

[Charleston native]

That doesn't always hold true anymore -- that trend is quickly reversing... As suburban areas continue to spread out, crime is spreading outward into the suburbs just as quickly.

Suburbia is actually becoming the preferred grounds where drug traffickers like to do business. Suburbanites are now among their biggest clients, and since they tend to be more affluent and develop more expensive habits, they are cash cows.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Granted, I'll give you those points, but also keep in mind that many residents in the suburbs will not let their communities fall into disrepair and crime like the inner cities did. There might be a drug dealer who hangs out in a nice neighborhood, but many people will take note of this and inform their law enforcement agencies. Many suburb communities have "crime watchers", and if there are even suspicious characters in their neighborhood, they will be reported.

The inner city will be the main haven for criminial activity until more affluent people move in or the cores are redeveloped. I believe that both can happen in some cities...especially here in the Southeast. It's already happening in my hometown, Columbia, Savannah, Jacksonville, and Charlotte, just to name a few examples.

[RiversideGator]

The inner city will be the main haven for criminal activity until more affluent people move in or the cores are redeveloped. I believe that both can happen in some cities...especially here in the Southeast. It's already happening in my hometown, Columbia, Savannah, Jacksonville, and Charlotte, just to name a few examples.

This is very true. I have personally run off several vagrants from my area in Riverside and I had a crack dealer arrested who was living in the alley/garage behind my house. Without my intervention, he would probably still be there. Now, people feel safe again. Activity in the form of normal law abiding people are the best antiseptic to an unsafe area. Also, police occasionally walking downtown area streets (instead of driving by at 40 mph) would help.

[I-275westcoastflorida]

Ive said this once before i want to live in a suburb not the kind where for a mile the houses look exactly the same but i want a house with a yard/pool and my own custom look for my house when im old enogh to do all that. I dont want to live in a building in which i have no land, have to follow stupid rules, and those things, like ive said ive said something like this in a suburb topic so im not gonna go on. The south will keep growing areas in Florida, Texas, NC, Georgia will populate very quickly and continue to grow i doubt many people will abandon the south to go to the north for a 800 sqft home for over 200k. The same goes for the west, mid-west.

[teshadoh]

I'm coming in late in this conversation - particularly concerning Kunstler. But after a lengthy email conversation after the release of his last book, which he roundly issued a doomsday forecast for most southern cities, I am resigned into thinking he is a propagandist. He doesn't simply feel suburban areas will decline - but any city with a considerable suburban mass will decline with it. That being - Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, Dallas, etc. are all doomed. Additionally he incorporates the worst tools used by neo-conservatives for the sake of his battle - bias & propagating lies. One of the topics we discussed was he proclaimed to me that Atlanta's downtown was completely dead - he for example, literally was unable to find any restaraunts. So I named a number of areas as well as some wonderful urban streets with a number of restaraunts. He later acknowledged he might not have looked hard enough & I can't blame him - downtown Atlanta isn't the most convinient area. But at a later date in an interview, he reused his "I couldn't find anything to eat in downtown Atlanta" story.

Just like neo-conservatives - he emphasizes the negativity while completely ignoring the positives to illustrate his point. Kunstler was very significant in the 1990's with the arrival of new urbanism & remergance of urban areas - but he shot his load with his last book. Considering his present book is fictional, I view his assault as being a means for his departure from the stage he elevated himself to. As he responded, he feels no need to promote urbanism anymore - because he feels he already succeeded in that, he simply wanted to vent his anger at suburbia - using Las Vegas & Atlanta as his scapegoats.

[Miesian Corners]

One thing is clear: Kunstler is a fool.  The sky-is-falling, we-are-running-out-of-natural-resources crowd is ALWAYS proven wrong.  The reason is we are not dealing with a static system but instead humans have the ability to adapt to changes.  Man's knowledge doubles every ten years, so it is hardly believable that we will just cease to innovate and will abandon cities b/c of some possible (although unlikely) environmental crisis.  What he describes could only happen if there is some kind of nuclear exchange with China or Russia.  Absent this, we will be fine and probably a lot better off in 2025 than we are now.  I think the real motivation behind his comments is his bias against the South and Southwest.  What kind of mental illness must you have to believe this Kunstler nonsense?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't really buy into the Kunstler arguement, but you might want to rethink the "people don't just abandon cities" thing. One look at history and you'll see it's one of the things man is good at: building, forgetting, moving to the next best place. Ephesus, Carthage, Pompeii, Jericho, Love Canal, Wilkes-Barre, Scranton, Centralia (which will be ablaze for the next 1,000 years due to a coal fire underneath it)...

[Eastwestrob]

This is probably not the reply you are expecting or desiring, but I think the South has poor prospects for the future.  The reason is energy and the failure of suburbia.  I will pull a quote from James Howard Kunstler:

"The regions that have benefited the most from cheap energy -- the west and the southeast -- are going to suffer the most in an energy-challenged era. I have maintained that we will see cities like Phoenix and Las Vegas virtually depopulated in the next fifty years as all their artificial means to support human settlement grow scarce. Imagine Phoenix without cheap air conditioning. Those fleeing the Sunbelt deserts will have to go somewhere, and whether it is northern California or Michigan their influx is liable to create friction, greater scarcity, and more conflict.

      I tremble to think what life will be like in Florida and Georgia twenty years from now. I suspect they will become places of violence and lawlessness as the suburban infrastructure fails economically and the discovery dawns on them that suburbia was their economy -- and now its over. What will they do in Atlanta and Orlando? I believe the southeast will revert to being an agricultural backwater, perhaps with an overlay of despotic fundamentalist Christian politics."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha F.....g Haha Ha.

This dude is totally wacked.

sounds like another scare tactic

Phoenix by the way has the largest Nuclear facility in N.America.

Don't exactly hear about rivers drying up in the south.

I suppose Florida and Goergia are going to revert back to the "old-west"and settle things with an old fashioned gun fight.

[sandiego2]

Your curious when the South will get respect?

They sure get a lot of respect here!

Suck on that for a while. lol

edit: Due to the site's filters, you'll have to click on the link, and modify the link to what you think was most likely edited out.

Well this gravy train is ****ing over. Take your liberal-bashing, federal-tax-leaching, confederate-flag-waving, holier-than-thou, hypocritical bull**** and shove it up your ***.

A lovely exerpt.

[RiversideGator]

San Diego: Judging from your learned post, you are obviously a very intelligent individual.

[monsoon]

Indeed. We already banned him once for his most informative posts. Tough to get rid of these pests.

[Charleston native]

I only have enough time right now to make a post here.

All I have to say about that San Diego dude is: WTF??

Good grief!

[timalucas]

This is probably not the reply you are expecting or desiring, but I think the South has poor prospects for the future.  The reason is energy and the failure of suburbia.  I will pull a quote from James Howard Kunstler:

"The regions that have benefited the most from cheap energy -- the west and the southeast -- are going to suffer the most in an energy-challenged era. I have maintained that we will see cities like Phoenix and Las Vegas virtually depopulated in the next fifty years as all their artificial means to support human settlement grow scarce. Imagine Phoenix without cheap air conditioning. Those fleeing the Sunbelt deserts will have to go somewhere, and whether it is northern California or Michigan their influx is liable to create friction, greater scarcity, and more conflict.

      I tremble to think what life will be like in Florida and Georgia twenty years from now. I suspect they will become places of violence and lawlessness as the suburban infrastructure fails economically and the discovery dawns on them that suburbia was their economy -- and now its over. What will they do in Atlanta and Orlando? I believe the southeast will revert to being an agricultural backwater, perhaps with an overlay of despotic fundamentalist Christian politics."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard! What would the north be like without cheap heat?

I'm sorry, but without energy, the south would be far more livable than the north! Face it, the south has a growing economy and prosperous cities partly because of the more livable climate!

[timalucas]

I don't really buy into the Kunstler arguement, but you might want to rethink the "people don't just abandon cities" thing.  One look at history and you'll see it's one of the things man is good at: building, forgetting, moving to the next best place.  Ephesus, Carthage, Pompeii, Jericho, Love Canal, Wilkes-Barre, Scranton, Centralia (which will be ablaze for the next 1,000 years due to a coal fire underneath it)...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, Pompeii was distoyed by a volcano!

[RiversideGator]

And Carthage was destroyed intentionally by the Romans. Love Canal was affected by the Three Mile Island nuclear facility accident. How do these fit in with your theory?

[monsoon]

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard!  What would the north be like without cheap heat? 

I'm sorry, but without energy, the south would be far more livable than the north!  Face it, the south has a growing economy and prosperous cities partly because of the more livable climate!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually many would say the South did not become liveable until the invention of cheap airconditioning which consumes vast amounts of electrical power.

[timalucas]

Actually many would say the South did not become liveable until the invention of cheap airconditioning which consumes vast amounts of electrical power.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There were plenty of poeple living in the South before Air Conditioning.

Charleston and Savana are some of the oldest cities in the country, and most southern cities have downdowns comprised of 150+ year old buildings. All I'm saying is Heat takes lots of power too, and I'd rather have a Tennessee Summer than a New England winter!

[ryanmckibben]

Blah, blah, blah, blah. What is it with you guys? Why does this alays turn into a "my city is better then yours" contest. Put your d*cks back in your pants. Honestly what is the average age hear?

I wish I had the optimism of those who blindly run into the future assuming everything will be just fine. Newsflash...humans have not only abandoned cities throughout it's history, we have also abandoned entire civilizations and ways of life. Sometimes becuse of natural didasters but often times because of the shortsightedness of it's leaders/citizens. I you think that can't happen to America, please pull your head out of your a** and go read some history books. Rome stood for over 500 years before it fell, and we've only been around about 230 years. And yes, comparing Rome to America is more then fair, in fact Rome was arguably more powerfull then America at it's peak if you look at the two relative to their time. Bottom line is if you had told a Romanduring the height of the empire that Rome would eventually fall he would have told you that you were crazy.

The scarcity of energy will no doubt change the settlement patterns of Americans. Even if those who claim that American ingenuity will save the day are correct, prices of the new "magical" energy source will invariably be higher then the cheap hydrocarbon fuel of today. I don't think that places like Atlanta, Charlotte or Miami are in trouble, I do belive that cities such as Phoenix, LV, Dallas, and Houston are in deep doo doo. THERE DESERTS!!!!! Human beings have no business living in deserts...it's not natural.

[RiversideGator]

Ryan: Rome fell not because of an energy crisis or environmental disaster, but primarily because of barbarian invasion. You cant incorrectly cite history and then urge us to read our history books. By the way, I have a B.A. in History. How about you? Oh, and check your spelling before you post next time.

[timalucas]

Blah, blah, blah, blah. What is it with you guys? Why does this alays turn into a "my city is better then yours" contest. Put your d*cks back in your pants. Honestly what is the average age hear?

I wish I had the optimism of those who blindly run into the future assuming everything will be just fine. Newsflash...humans have not only abandoned cities throughout it's history, we have also abandoned entire civilizations and ways of life. Sometimes becuse of natural didasters but often times because of the shortsightedness of it's leaders/citizens. I you think that can't happen to America, please pull your head out of your a** and go read some history books. Rome stood for over 500 years before it fell, and we've only been around about 230 years. And yes, comparing Rome to America is more then fair, in fact Rome was arguably more powerfull then America at it's peak if you look at the two relative to their time. Bottom line is if you had told a Romanduring the height of the empire that Rome would eventually fall he would have told you that you were crazy.

The scarcity of energy will no doubt change the settlement patterns of Americans. Even if those who claim that American ingenuity will save the day are correct, prices of the new "magical" energy source will invariably be higher then the cheap hydrocarbon fuel of today. I don't think that places like Atlanta, Charlotte or Miami are in trouble, I do belive that cities such as Phoenix, LV, Dallas, and Houston are in deep doo doo. THERE DESERTS!!!!! Human beings have no business living in deserts...it's not natural.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First off, I don't see any city bashing in this thread!

Secondly - How many barbarian attacks have we been getting lately?

Thirdly - I believe there are ways to deel with the energy crisis, even if it means building more nuclear powerplants [in the desert] and building cities denser so people can actually use their legs (now there's a concept)!!

[RiversideGator]

I think the funniest part of Ryan's post was this: Dallas and Houston are in "deep doo doo" b/c they are (the contraction of which is they're) in the desert. I find this most amusing as they get a lot of rain, especially Houston which has basically Gulf Coast weather patterns like FL.

[Miesian Corners]

And Carthage was destroyed intentionally by the Romans.  Love Canal was affected by the Three Mile Island nuclear facility accident.  How do these fit in with your theory?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, Love Canal was abandoned due to a toxic dump underneath the area. Three Mile Island is adjacent to Harrisburg International Airport on the Susquehanna River in Pennsylvania.

My point was that cities do, indeed, get abandoned. Sometimes they die slow painful deaths (like Wilkes-Barre and Scranton, PA) due to changes in industry and economics. Sometimes they are blown to bits by volcanoes or swallowed by earthquakes and mudslides. These are environmental factors for which we are talking about. What happens in the event of global warming? How many world cities will be vacated?

I'm really not trying to start an argument. Just realize that this whole debate around oil and what it means to our survival is intently tied to our environment.

[teshadoh]

Actually, Love Canal was abandoned due to a toxic dump underneath the area.  Three Mile Island is adjacent to Harrisburg International Airport on the Susquehanna River in Pennsylvania. 

My point was that cities do, indeed, get abandoned.  Sometimes they die slow painful deaths (like Wilkes-Barre and Scranton, PA) due to changes in industry and economics.  Sometimes they are blown to bits by volcanoes or swallowed by earthquakes and mudslides.  These are environmental factors for which we are talking about.  What happens in the event of global warming?  How many world cities will be vacated? 

I'm really not trying to start an argument.  Just realize that this whole debate around oil and what it means to our survival is intently tied to our environment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting point - there is a website that is about ghost towns, not just ghost towns of the old west, but relatively modern ghost towns. Included are - towns that grew up around industrial sites such as a mill or mine - which illustrates how many towns / cities developed out of convinience and little else.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

I don't see how oil is that critical to our everyday lives. Sure, you can't drive around but my (Charlotte) energy is generated by a nuclear plant and I could buy an electric car. Doomsday scenarios just because of a lack of oil do not make sense.