The Southeast US

[Spades]

do belive that cities such as Phoenix, LV, Dallas, and Houston are in deep doo doo. THERE DESERTS!!!!! Human beings have no business living in deserts...it's not natural.

HUH?? I can understand Phoenix and LV but Dallas and Houston?? They are no where NEAR the desert and the majority of Texas is not in the desert.

[RiversideGator]

Miesian: Sorry about the Love Canal reference. I guess I had my 70s environmental history wrong. Either way, my point is that, while cities have been abandoned in the history, I dont agree that a lack of oil would result in the collapse of any large cities in the US. Furthermore, I dont think we are nearing the end of the oil supply. And, I am not a fan of suburbia by any means (the neighborhood I live in pre-dates mass ownership of cars) - I am just stating my opinion re the future. I believe modern man will be able to adapt to any oil shortage in short order, for example, via the ethanol plants, denser cities and electric cars mentioned above.

[Miesian Corners]

Not a prob, Gator. I'm not the most optimistic person in the world. It's my one character flaw. Don't tell anybody.

There's a great debate on an urban planning site I go to called cyburbia.org. The concept is called "Peak Oil". Basically, the concept refers to the "Hubbert peak" of oil production. Global oil production is expected to follow the rough shape of a bell curve with peak annual production coming when we have extracted roughly half of the planet's oil. After that point, annual production (extraction) is expected to decrease over time, with dire consequences as prices are bid through the roof.

Even other energy sources require oil in some fashion. Example: it takes a combustion engine to remove coal from the hills of West Virginia. The plastics that make up the computers that we're using come from petroleum. The global economy is based on oil. It's one of the reasons I get so angry at the current Adminstration's refusal to promote conservation as a way to curb our dependence on foreign supplies.

Ok, I'll stop here before I start a tangent. Check out cyburbia, though. Great site if you're a planner or want to play one on TV.

Cheers!

[Miesian Corners]

I don't see how oil is that critical to our everyday lives. Sure, you can't drive around but my (Charlotte) energy is generated by a nuclear plant and I could buy an electric car. Doomsday scenarios just because of a lack of oil do not make sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Moon, see above. How much plastic is that electric car made of? How much petroleum was used by machines in the construction of Cowan's Ford and McGuire and Lake Wylie? We're doomed, I tell you, doomed!

[monsoon]

Moon, see above.  How much plastic is that electric car made of?  How much petroleum was used by machines in the construction of Cowan's Ford and McGuire and Lake Wylie?  We're doomed, I tell you, doomed!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once the price is right, coal can be substituted for oil for most purposes. As I mentioned on the cyburbia site, there is no indication that we are close to the Peak oil limit. We have yet to see anything that existed during the fuel shortages of the 70s and the resulting high prices in the early 80s. And doomsday scenarios abounded then too. Its just the present generation likes to believe they are the first to deal with these problems. Go ask your parents what it was like.

[Miesian Corners]

Once the price is right, coal can be substituted for oil for most purposes.  As I mentioned on the cyburbia site, there is no indication that we are close to the Peak oil limit.  We have yet to see anything that existed during the fuel shortages of the 70s and the resulting high prices in the early 80s.  And doomsday scenarios abounded then too.  Its just the present generation likes to believe they are the first to deal with these problems.  Go ask your parents what it was like.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I lived through the 1970s and dealt with lines for gas. I am also the child of parents who believe in conservation...and my dad owned a gas station! We slept under lots of blankets in the winter and had fans in the summer. My mom drove a 1974 Toyota Corolla wagon because it got 35 mpg. Dad had a Datsun pickup.

The difference between the 1970s and now is that conservation doesn't even come into play for Americans today. They don't care. They don't even turn off the lights when they leave a room. One of the biggest arguements about sprawl is that it encourages people to be in cars. It's not sustainable. Freeways are the lifeblood of them. And the more we sit in traffic, the more gas we use.

And why do any of us need an SUV? Are you really going to need a 4x4 on the way to the Harris Teeter? Will the Navagator have to ford a stream when driving down Providence Rd?

On to the coal arguement. High sulfur content (air pollution), damanging to extract from the earth, and labor intensive (using combustion engines, no doubt). As I posted on Cyburbia, West Viriginia is being torn apart by "mountaintopping". The courses of rivers have been changed, valleys filled in, and heavy metals now abound in rainwater run-off. Coal is not the end all, be all. It will cost us more in the end.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

we still have so much oil to go before we are really suffering though. the general consesus is 40 years, and that is known oil reserves. I am sure when are coming down on 10 to go, we will feel the need to develop our alternative fuel sources to the point of commodity. Or maybe I put too much faith in humanity

How high did the prices of gas get to in the 70s? I mean right now, to me, the current price is still no big deal, more then I want to pay but nothing that cripels my lifestyle.

[Miesian Corners]

we still have so much oil to go before we are really suffering though. the general consesus is 40 years, and that is known oil reserves. I am sure when are coming down on 10 to go, we will feel the need to develop our alternative fuel sources to the point of commodity. Or maybe I put too much faith in humanity

How high did the prices of gas get to in the 70s? I mean right now, to me, the current price is still no big deal, more then I want to pay but nothing that cripels my lifestyle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It wasn't the price so much as it was the shortage. The fuel crisis was all about lack of supply (OPEC's first big slap at North America). Gasoline was rationed. You could only fill up on certain days of the week. You sat in line to do that. No fuel at all on Sundays where I grew up.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

wow, I had heard of the lines but I didn't know it worked like that. That would really suck.