downtown USA - the 10 best

[stinkweed]

The 10 best......

1. Charlotte....Hey it's in N.C.

2. Atlanta.....CNN!!!

3. Memphis....all that country music has to be for something

4. Jacksonville.....ah! what density can do

5. Raleigh.....it's just great

6. Albany.....they shoud flatten NYC and model it after this city

7. San Deigo.......nice weather

8. Orlando....see number 7

9. Richmond.....home of big tabaco

10. Any other city in the south

The 10 Worst....

1. NYC....too small not enough people

2. Chicago....nothing special here

3. San Fran....boring

4. Philly....no density

5. Boston....see philly

6. Seattle....too many young people hangin around

7. D.C. Too much stuff happening in this town

8. Minneapolis....who needs it

9. Cleveland

10. Pittsburgh/Baltimore tie

[peaceloveunderstanding]

are you serious? Or maybe your just crazy.

[bobdreamz]

The 10 best......

1. Charlotte....Hey it's in N.C.

2. Atlanta.....CNN!!!

3. Memphis....all that country music has to be for something

4. Jacksonville.....ah! what density can do

5. Raleigh.....it's just great

6. Albany.....they shoud flatten NYC and model it after this city

7. San Deigo.......nice weather

8. Orlando....see number 7

9. Richmond.....home of big tabaco

10. Any other city in the south

The 10 Worst....

1. NYC....too small not enough people

2. Chicago....nothing special here

3. San Fran....boring

4. Philly....no density

5. Boston....see philly

6. Seattle....too many young people hangin around

7. D.C.

[teshadoh]

The 10 best......

1. Charlotte....Hey it's in N.C.

2. Atlanta.....CNN!!!

3. Memphis....all that country music has to be for something

4. Jacksonville.....ah! what density can do

5. Raleigh.....it's just great

6. Albany.....they shoud flatten NYC and model it after this city

7. San Deigo.......nice weather

8. Orlando....see number 7

9. Richmond.....home of big tabaco

10. Any other city in the south

The 10 Worst....

1. NYC....too small not enough people

2. Chicago....nothing special here

3. San Fran....boring

4. Philly....no density

5. Boston....see philly

6. Seattle....too many young people hangin around

7. D.C.  Too much stuff happening in  this town

8. Minneapolis....who needs it

9. Cleveland

10. Pittsburgh/Baltimore tie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is funny - but I would seriously consider some of your sarcastic best downtowns to be fairly decent: San Diego, Memphis (I think you were thinking of Nashville), Richmond, & even Charlotte. For a city it's size - certainly Atlanta has a shameful downtown (which fortunately I can say is improving).

As for your humerous worst - though central DC is incredible - but is it really a cohesive downtown? Of course it's not Washington's fault that the federal government is so prominant there - but it does result in a divided & in a sense sprawling downtown (due to the height limits).

[stinkweed]

That is funny - but I would seriously consider some of your sarcastic best downtowns to be fairly decent:  San Diego, Memphis (I think you were thinking of Nashville), Richmond, & even Charlotte.  For a city it's size - certainly Atlanta has a shameful downtown (which fortunately I can say is improving).

As for your humerous worst - though central DC is incredible - but is it really a cohesive downtown?  Of course it's not Washington's fault that the federal government is so prominant there - but it does result in a divided & in a sense sprawling downtown (due to the height limits).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sprawling downtown......yeah, a large dense core is a pretty bad thing. I'd prefer san deigo's shopping mall downtown feel any day. And really if a town doesn't have a bunch of skyscrapers it's not really a city anyway, right? I'll go back and bump richmond up to number 2. How's that?

[teshadoh]

sprawling downtown......yeah, a large dense core is a pretty bad thing.  I'd prefer san deigo's shopping mall downtown feel any day.  And really if a town doesn't have a bunch of skyscrapers it's not really a city anyway, right?  I'll go back and bump richmond up to number 2.  How's that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No need to be so defensive -

But get back to me when you feel like discussing this, because your response has nothing to do with my comment...

[stinkweed]

No need to be so defensive -

But get back to me when you feel like discussing this, because your response has nothing to do with my comment...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How better shall I reply? Do you read these posts? 10 best. You teach me. What is your 10 best? This could possible develop into a real dialogue.

[teshadoh]

How better shall I reply?  Do you read these posts?  10 best.  You teach me.  What is your 10 best?  This could possible develop into a real dialogue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you - that's better. My responses were not to indicate that I thought they were top 10 material, but to give them some defense. It depends on what scale you are comparing - population, density as well as how to compare different sized cities. The cities of Charlotte, Memphis, Jacksonville, Raleigh, Orlando or Richmond are obviously uncomparable to your favored lists due to their significant disadvantage - size. Not counting metropolitan areas, but none of these cities urban areas is even above 1 million. So do these downtown's compare unfavorably to any city? Or is it because they could not possibly compare - except for smaller cities of Columbus, Albany, Omaha, Portland, etc...

But considering the size of these cities - Charlotte is fairly respectable in my view. Little of their historic core remains of course due to urban renewal of the 1960's - but the city has made amends to it's loss. It is arguable though of the 'human scale', with the overabundance of modernism - how it will age over time. But for now - for a city the size of Nashville or Jacksonville (based on UA) I would suggest it isn't too bad.

Richmond has a beautiful historic core - rather dead except for the small entertainment district, & the Fan district immediately to downtown's west - it's architectual significance redeems it's lack of activity. In my view - I'll take a relatively static core of 100+ buildings over a bustling shopping mall any day.

Now - San Diego & Atlanta are comparable to the larger cities, and I completley agree for a city it's size - Atlanta's downtown is embaraseeing. San Diego's though, is at least improving over the parking lot dominated environment it was a decade ago. There is a large & growing residential section in downtown proper, an lively entertaining area in the historic section & despite the cheesiness of a shopping mall in downtown - it at least provides downtown with something that other city's lack, a very real sense of activity & mixed use. Basically, I like the human scale of San Diego's downtown, it reminds me of a neighborhood in itself. Plus I do admit I am a sucker for a gorgeous bay & steep hills on the edge where a mammoth & lush park exists.

As for Washington - I do think it has a great downtown. It is certainly worth making it one of the most visited downtowns in the US, I definitely enjoy my trips there. But I only question the great influence on government employment from being a truly varied downtown on the scale of the great downtowns. There are many elements that make it great - there is a large residential population but because the focus is on the government / museaum complex - I just think it loses it's focus. Compared to other cities whose focus is on a major artery or park, in Washington - there isn't enough mixed use for me to consider it a top 10.

As for my top 10, I admit ignorance - it's hard for me to list, but I'll try (though not ranked):

NYC

Boston (from my understanding - haven't been though)

Philadelphia (from my understanding - haven't been though)

Chicago

Seattle

Portland (not the biggest but a great human scale to it)

San Francisco

New Orleans

I only listed 7, only because what makes a downtown great is a variety of factors. There may be other cities that meet all those criterias, such as Minneapolis but I haven't been or don't know enough to provide an educated decision. Though from what I've seen - Minneapolis & Baltimore do have wonderful downtowns, but I'm not going to rank them without knowing more. I did include Boston & Philadelphia, because I think I have seen enough proof they are great.

But as for your 'any other city in the south' quip - though I can understand your general bias against cities in the south. I would suggest the cities of Savannah, Charleston, New Orleans & Miami Beach consist of worthy downtowns. Though heavily influenced by the tourism trade, dismissal of these cities as inconsequential only reflects in one's ignorant bias.

[Loughlin]

Philly has a tiny little downtown area, too.  You should check it out someday.

So, San Diego has a better downtown than Chicago and New York.  Ok, everyone has an opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chicago downtown is boring is hell for a city of its size(i dont understand all the hype) and New York smells like fish evrywere .

[Recchia]

Why is Albany, NY on anyones list? You guys must be joking around, right? Albany is the drabbest, boringest, deadest city in my opinion. It becomes a suburb about a half mile from its downtown, and Empire State Plaza (i think its called, the one with the Corning Tower and the three small towers) looks like a bunch of Sony Playstations turned onto their sides.

I don't know how to pick a top five cause I've only been to cities in the northeast, but I'd say my favorites are NYC (cmon nothin at all compares to it in this country) and Philly.

[G W North]

I spent a few days in Seattle two summers ago. Though I was only there for a few days, I spent nearly the entire days walking and walking and walking - downtown, Belltown, Lower Queen Anne, Upper Queen Anne, Pike/Pine, Capitol Hill, International District, Waterfront, Pioneer Square, West Seattle Fremont, Ballard, "The Ave.", etc.

IMO, downtown Seattle still has a ways to go. One of the areas in which it's lacking is 24-hour stores/restaurants. 7-11 and AM/PM have dozens of locations all over the city, but if you're in the middle of downtown, you've got to walk almost to the Space Needle to get to the nearest one. There are some independent convenience stores - but none of them looked to be open 24/7. With restaurants too - if you want to go for a bite after you leave the bar at 2am, it seems like there are only 4 or 5 places that will still be open - it's not like other downtowns where you can just randomly walk a couple blocks and find an all-night convenience store and an all-night restaurant. I also drove all around downtown my second night there (my legs were too tired to walk anymore) - and there was very little pedestrian traffic, even considering it was a Wednesday night (although it was only 10pm or so). There was SOME pedestrian traffic on 1st and 2nd Ave. in Belltown, but I drove the entire length of the Waterfront from Pioneer Square to where they're building that sculpture park for example, and saw nary a sole.

Downtown Seattle is also ignored by many major chains (moreso restaurants than stores). Some see this as go, but (and call me greedy), I want to be able to choose from chains AND local independents.

They can build thousands of new residential units - but unless there is a critical mass of businesses open late - they will never see substantial levels of pedestrian traffic until the wee hours seven days a week.

That said, the Retail District, Waterfront, and Pioneer Square (1st Ave. only) did have very heavy pedestrian traffic in the daytime. Belltown, the rest of Pioneer Square, and the International District were quite sparse even in the middle of the day though. I really do think the city needs to do more to encourage 24-hour stores and restaurants in places like Pioneer Square and Belltown though - not just one or two, but a critical mass.

[teshadoh]

Additionally stinkweed - after reviewing some lists, I think I understand your joke. There are some very screwed up notions of what makes a great downtown.

[pwright1]

Seattle has come a come along way since the late 80's or early 90's. No it is not a 24 hr downtown but it's only getting better. A few more chain stores and restaurants have open since you were here. Quite a few local restaurants have opened all around downtown which is always a good thing. A large grocery store will be opening next year. A few condo towers have opened recently. And what downtown has anything on the scale of the Pike Place Market? I can go on but I'm not. Your right it's not a 24 hr downtown GW North. But one thing I can say and that is it still is definately in the top 10. I've been to just about all of them. Even lived in some and Seattle is one of my favorite.

[rockhilljames]

I'm going to list my top 10...but it will only list cities I've actually been to. I can't comment on somewhere I haven't actually experienced (like Philly, for example...)

1. NYC (I mean...really)

2. San Francisco

3. Chicago

4. Boston

5. Charleston

6. New Orleans

7. DC

8. Richmond

9. Charlotte

10. Tempe

Places I'd like to visit that I think would probably make my list based on what I've seen of them:

Philly

Denver

Seattle

Portland

Austin

San Diego

Miami

Balitmore

Madison

Columbus

Minneapolis

....

[G W North]

Seattle has come a come along way since the late 80's or early 90's.

[pwright1]

I just found it a bit odd how many chains ignore the area bounded by the stadiums, Denny Way, the water and I-5. The area is relatively densely populated, has a huge office population, department stores, museums, attractions, sports stadiums, etc. According to their website for example, 7-11 has dozens of locations within the city limits, but why none in Belltown, the Retail District, Pioneer Square, etc. There are certainly lots of people there who would use it - especially in say the Southern part of Belltown. Other chains that aren't in the area (to my knowledge) - Denny's, Blockbuster, Hollywood Video, Burger King, Wendy's, Dominos, KFC, Orange Julius, Pizza Hut, Safeway, Pier One....

Hopefully some of the new condo towers will recruit some of these for their ground floor. It's great to have independents and all - it just felt weird that so many of the major chains were lacking.

And I'm not trying to sound argumentative - I'm just curious - what chains have opened downtown since I was there in the summer of 2003?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To tell you the truth I don't know where you live but Seattle doesn't really take well to some of these chains you mentioned. Some like Denny's, Wendy's, Burger King were downtown but since dissappeared. And what on earth would we need a 7/11 for when there are so many little convenience stores all around downtown. For Pier One we have Cost Plus, Bed Bath & Beyond, Pottery Barn, Restoration Hardware, Macy's and tons of similar places scattered throughout downtown, let alone the Pike Place Market. Have you been on Western Avenue which is a mecca for furniture and accessories? There's at least 10 spots downtown where you can rent and purchase videos. When more residential towers open soon in dt Seattle I guarantee you will not see anything like KFC, McDonalds, Burger King, 7/11. Thank goodness. A nice big grocery store, yes in 2006. Some new recent chain openings dt: Walgreens, Bartell Drugs, Subway, Krispy Kreme, Johnnie Rockets, PF Changs, Cold Stone Creamery, Fox Sports Grill, Ruth Chris Steakhouse, American Eagle Outfitters, New Balance, TMobile, 2 Fitness Centers (can't think of the names) with another later this year just to name a few. Plus the 42 story WaMu Center Tower/Seattle Art Museum expansion is opening in 2006.

[stinkweed]

Additionally stinkweed - after reviewing some lists, I think I understand your joke.  There are some very screwed up notions of what makes a great downtown.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. I'm not the first to say this, it may have been you. I don't feel like going back to read all the posts. American cities are seriously flawed. We compartmentalize everything.

Take my home city, Philadelphia. We have a central business district with many tall buildings. Many people would say this is the sign of a healthy urban core. But if you don't work in these buildings they are useless except to look at. Philly's real downtown starts below Market street. This is where all the mixed use buildings are and where the life is. When I said "any other city in the south" I sadi it because new cities don't have a chance.

Be it Charlotte, Houston, Jacksonville or any of the others. Cities are build as semi urban car oriented industrial parks. We're starting to see residential unit put into these environments but IMO it's far too late. When cities like Philly, Boston and Seattle are struggling with these problems and are far more urban than most, how can others manage. If you ask me, cities like Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and even Trenton have more of an urban feel than Charlotte, San Deigo and Jacksonville ever will. And I like Charlotte and San Deigo. If the base isn't there I just don't think you can go back and manufacture one.

For example, my mother lives in Pheonix. Every time I go she talls me how they're trying to make a "downtown". How can you have a downtown with 6 lane streets everywhere?

[G W North]

>>To tell you the truth I don't know where you live but Seattle doesn't really take well to some of these chains you mentioned. Some like Denny's, Wendy's, Burger King were downtown but since dissappeared.<<

I was just making the point that many chains avoid the downtown. I don't know if Seattle "doesn't take to well" to them, because many of them litter the rest of the city and the suburbs. Downtown dwellers just don't have the convenience of many of them within walking distance. Whether you think this is good or bad is up to you, I was just pointing this out.

>>And what on earth would we need a 7/11 for when there are so many little convenience stores all around downtown.<<

How many of them are open 24/7 though? I assume most of them aren't simply because I didn't see signs indicating that they are (all night stores/restaurants almost always have a neon sign indicating so). Maybe they are open 24/7?

>> For Pier One we have Cost Plus, Bed Bath & Beyond, Pottery Barn, Restoration Hardware, Macy's and tons of similar places scattered throughout downtown, let alone the Pike Place Market. Have you been on Western Avenue which is a mecca for furniture and accessories? There's at least 10 spots downtown where you can rent and purchase videos.<<

I wasn't claiming the downtown lacked retail overall, just that many prominent chains weren't represented. Some people see that as good, some don't.

>>When more residential towers open soon in dt Seattle I guarantee you will not see anything like KFC, McDonalds, Burger King, 7/11. Thank goodness.<<

We just disagree here. Not having the choice of going to these places when you're downtown is not good IMO. Independents and chains can co-exist successfully. If I don't like a certain store/restaurant I just don't visit it. Personally though, I don't see having the choice as bad.

>>A nice big grocery store, yes in 2006.<<

I am aware of that, although it just barely falls into the area specified. It's still a long walk for many people downtown.

>>Some new recent chain openings dt: Walgreens, Bartell Drugs, Subway, Krispy Kreme, Johnnie Rockets, PF Changs, Cold Stone Creamery, Fox Sports Grill, Ruth Chris Steakhouse, American Eagle Outfitters, New Balance, TMobile, 2 Fitness Centers (can't think of the names) with another later this year just to name a few. Plus the 42 story WaMu Center Tower/Seattle Art Museum expansion is opening in 2006.<<

Most of those chains were there 2 years ago. I know a few weren't (like American Eagle).

Again, I wasn't putting down downtown Seattle, I was just pointing out some of the things it's missing. I'm well aware of what it's NOT missing (ie, what it does have). Downtown Seattle is probably in the top 10, but it still has a ways to go in a few areas.

[stinkweed]

I'm confused. Are you guys arguing for more chain stores in downtown Seattle?

[G W North]

I was just pointing out that many chains avoid the area, which I found very unusual, as some of the chains have lots of locations in other neighbourhoods in the city. The downtown is still well retailed (1800 retailers according to the official website).

[pwright1]

I'm confused.  Are you guys arguing for more chain stores in downtown Seattle?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It looks that way. But the fact is we don't need more chains. Downtown Seattle has more than their fair share of chains. I pointed out to GW a few more chains opened downtown. He pointed out most of those were there when he visited 2 years ago. The fact is some have more than one location within dt which were added within the past year. So no they were not here 2 years ago.

GW the fact is dt Seattle is not a 24hr dt and neither are 99.9% of the rest of the large downtowns in the U.S. We don't need 24hr 7/11s. We don't need Denny's, KFC, Burger King or Wendy's. GW stated you don't like don't go in. Well, we didn't go in and as a result those places shutdown. There's at least 10 places dt where you can buy or rent videos. Why have Blockbuster or Hollywood? Besides they're nearby anyway. The new condos need to recruit these places?

Oh yeah that's right, swanky condo above, smelly greasy fried chicken and hamburgers below. I know you're not serious.

And for 24hr restaurants, we have them. Sorry none are chains though.

[mmmKane02]

Certainly, I love Washington DC (agree with you there, Sunshine!)

Also, NYC, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, Minneapolis, Seattle, Miami Beach...

[stinkweed]

It looks that way.  But the fact is we don't need more chains.  Downtown Seattle has more than their fair share of chains.  I pointed out to GW a few more chains opened downtown.  He pointed out most of those were there when he visited 2 years ago.  The fact is some have more than one location within dt which were added within the past year.  So no they were not here 2 years ago. 

 

GW the fact is dt Seattle is not a 24hr dt and neither are 99.9% of the rest of the large downtowns in the U.S.  We don't need 24hr 7/11s.  We don't need Denny's, KFC, Burger King or Wendy's.  GW stated you don't like don't go in.  Well, we didn't go in and as a result those places shutdown.  There's at least 10 places dt where you can buy or rent videos.  Why have Blockbuster or Hollywood?  Besides they're nearby anyway.  The new condos need to recruit these places? 

Oh yeah that's right, swanky condo above, smelly greasy fried chicken and hamburgers below.  I know you're not serious. 

And for 24hr restaurants, we have them.  Sorry none are chains though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well put. I'd add that the fast food chains aim at low earners. It's a good sign to not have them. People earning 150K don't eat at McDonalds. Value Meal?

[G W North]

We don't need 24hr 7/11s.

No you don't need 24 hr 7/11s if you have lots of other 24-hour convenience stores/small grocery stores. You may personally not need 24-hour stores, but many people do prefer to have the within walking distance, and to not be forced to walk a mile just to get to one. Walking around downtown Seattle for miles I saw zero (correct me if I'm wrong here), the closest one being the 7/11 by the Space Needle. If someone living at Cristalla or around Pike Place Market needs a few groceries very late at night they have a long walk. And I no you have 24-hour restaurants downtown, my motel was right beside one (The Hurricane). I was pointing out that you don't have many. As for the chains, again I prefer choice of independents or the major chains. Some people don't.

You seem to have taken way too much offense to my comments. I was not putting down downtown Seattle. I was just pointing out that it had a ways to go in some areas.

Not having certain choices is not a good thing. Even some of the local chains avoid the area bounded by Denny Way, the stadiums, I-5, and Elliot Bay (Pagliacci Pizza, Kidd Valley, Dick's). I'm not arguing that Seattle isn't in the top 10 downtowns, if that's what you're afraid of.

People earning 150K don't eat at McDonalds.

Downtowns shouldn't only be for the rich though, they should be for people of all income levels.

[pwright1]

I do admit Seattle has a way to go and it takes time. But for a city to transform its dt from what it was just a few years ago to what it is today is quite remarkable to say the least. I still say why bring in fast food chains when it was already done and just did not work. In fact I think Seattle has less fast food chains than any city I've ever lived or visited. I was up at the QFC market at Pike and Broadway. What did I see? Another closed down vacant Burger King. Believe me I did not take offense. We're just having a conversation.