downtown USA - the 10 best

[monsoon]

Well put.  I'd add that the fast food chains aim at low earners.  It's a good sign to not have them.  People earning 150K don't eat at McDonalds.  Value Meal?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm what about the people making $150K/year who just like McDonald's food? I remember Bill Clinton being very partial to Big Macs.

[G W North]

I don't see any retail closings as good myself, especially if that space remains vacent for months. I don't eat crap like KFC, but it's nice to have it available for those who do, and ample chains is the sign of a healthy residential population, and a sign that major corporations have confidence in a neighborhood. The city of Detroit probably lacks chains more than any other major city, but it's not a good sign, it's a sign that it's not healthy and that people don't have the confidence in it. And IMO, independents aren't inherently better than chains. As for 24-hour stores, no place "needs" them, but I wouldn't want to live in a downtown where I have to walk a mile just to get to one. You live above a 24-hour Safeway, so you probably take it forgranted.

I can't myself compare downtown Seattle now to what it was years ago. The only time I spent in it was in the summer of 2003. I thought it was great to visit, but lacked some of the conveniences that would make me want to live there (or at least live there without a car).

[pwright1]

'ample chains is the sign of a healthy residential population.'

So if you came to dt Seattle and looked at its residential areas and didn't see a bunch of chains around you would be skeptical? I guess developers of these condos and the citizens who live in them see things quite differently. As a real estate agent in this community things are sizzling hot in dt Seattle. When people choose to live downtown they are looking for convenience but not in the KFC, McDonalds, Orange Julius kind of way. I have yet to have anyone ask about proximity to 7/11 or Kentucky Fried Chicken or Applebee's. They like being close to the Pike Place Market, the water, the retail core, galleries, fine restaurants, nightlife, the theater, museums and work. I have dealt with clients who have given up their car when they moved dt. Most haven't, some have. The ones who have either walk, ride the bus for free within downtown or use Flexcar.

[G W North]

I didn't say downtown Seattle doesn't have a strong residential population. I was just surprised at how many major chains weren't represented (though obviously many chains are represented as well). I have no idea if most people care if the nearest 24-hour grocer is a 5-minute walk or a 20-minute walk. It may sound meaningless, but I take things like that forgranted, and am looking for things like that in my search for a new place. You can keep your car, but if I'm going to keep my car, I'm not going to want to pay downtown prices.

[stinkweed]

I didn't say downtown Seattle doesn't have a strong residential population. I was just surprised at how many major chains weren't represented (though obviously many chains are represented as well). I have no idea if most people care if the nearest 24-hour grocer is a 5-minute walk or a 20-minute walk. It may sound meaningless, but I take things like that forgranted, and am looking for things like that in my search for a new place. You can keep your car, but if I'm going to keep my car, I'm not going to want to pay downtown prices.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not sure I get this argument. Does having a 7-11 in your neighborhood make it a 24 hour joint? Your other problem seems to be that Seattle doesn't have all the proper chain stores? So if your moving to NY you would check the neighborhoods by chain stores located within a five minute walk?

Metro, everybody knows that people who make 150K and up goto Burger King.

My last point is that IMO independant shops are always better than chain stores. Why? The owner cares more than the child working at cash register. Also, the money is more likely to stay within the community. My opinion anyway.

[G W North]

I'm not sure I get this argument.  Does having a 7-11 in your neighborhood make it a 24 hour joint?  Your other problem seems to be that Seattle doesn't have all the proper chain stores?  So if your moving to NY you would check the neighborhoods by chain stores located within a five minute walk?

Metro, everybody knows that people who make 150K and up goto Burger King.

My last point is that IMO independant shops are always better than chain stores.  Why?  The owner cares more than the child working at cash register.  Also, the money is more likely to stay within the community. My opinion anyway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm going to reiterate what I've already stated.

No, having a 7-11 does not make a neighborhood "24 hours". But personally, I want the convenience of no more than a 2-3 minute walk to the nearest open convenience/grocery store even if it's just for pop and chips at 3am. I don't give a damn if it's a chain, an independent store, or whatever.

As for the chain store/restaurant thing, I just want the convenience of a choice. If I lived in Belltown, sometimes I wouldn't want to cook dinner, and wouldn't want to spend the money on a sit-down restaurant. It's not so much that Wendy's, Jack in the Box, or Taco Bell aren't convenient, but that I saw very few of these types of places in downtown Seattle, be they chains or independents. That's not to say there were none, but they were less abundant than I would have expected in the downtown of a 3 million+ metro. If you're walking around and are hungry for a slice of pizza for example, you're choices are fairly limited. You aren't likely going to randomly encounter one in a given 2 or 3 block stretch for instance.

You don't have to agree with these criteria. I was just expressing my opinion. I don't know if it's in the top 10 downtowns or not, because I haven't visited every major city.

Finally, I don't agree that independents are always better than chains. I know people like to put down chains on these boards, but they usually became major chains in the first place because they give people what they want.

[stinkweed]

I'm going to reiterate what I've already stated.

No, having a 7-11 does not make a neighborhood "24 hours". But personally, I want the convenience of no more than a 2-3 minute walk to the nearest open convenience/grocery store even if it's just for pop and chips at 3am. I don't give a damn if it's a chain, an independent store, or whatever.

As for the chain store/restaurant thing, I just want the convenience of a choice. If I lived in Belltown, sometimes I wouldn't want to cook dinner, and wouldn't want to spend the money on a sit-down restaurant. It's not so much that Wendy's, Jack in the Box, or Taco Bell aren't convenient, but that I saw very few of these types of places in downtown Seattle, be they chains or independents. That's not to say there were none, but they were less abundant than I would have expected in the downtown of a 3 million+ metro. If you're walking around and are hungry for a slice of pizza for example, you're choices are fairly limited. You aren't likely going to randomly encounter one in a given 2 or 3 block stretch for instance.

You don't have to agree with these criteria. I was just expressing my opinion. I don't know if it's in the top 10 downtowns or not, because I haven't visited every major city.

Finally, I don't agree that independents are always better than chains. I know people like to put down chains on these boards, but they usually became major chains in the first place because they give people what they want.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know of any downtown ( I know NY, Boston and Philly best) that would fit your criteria. Can you think of any? Major chains are IMO usually marketing power houses. Franchise's provide a well planned turn key operation with marketing in place. This increases the chance a given place will survive. The average restuarant has about an 80 percent or higher chance of failing.

[G W North]

I don't know of any downtown ( I know NY, Boston and Philly best) that would fit your criteria.  Can you think of any?  Major chains are IMO usually marketing power houses.  Franchise's provide a well planned turn key operation with marketing in place.  This increases the chance a given place will survive.  The average restuarant has about an 80 percent or higher chance of failing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You don't know of any downtown that has chains, independents, and all-night grocery stores?

[stinkweed]

You don't know of any downtown that has chains, independents, and all-night grocery stores?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not every 2 to 3 blocks as you describe. Please tell me.

[stinkweed]

Not every 2 to 3 blocks as you describe.  Please tell me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Come to think of it, Philly doesn't have a single all night grocery store that I can think of. I guess we're not as good a downtown as I thought. Also, as far as chain fast food goes I think we only have a handful at street level that I know of. There are some in the shops at liberty place but they are for the suburbaners who commute in for work. They shut down around 6 or so. Not many people here eat at chain stores. South street has a few and I know of 2 mcdonalds and a wendy's. Off broad there is an olive garden and a few high end things like Roy's and a couple of steak houses like capitol grill. Other than that I don't know. Say 30 out of 200 restuarants downtown. Seems like a good mix to me.

[G W North]

You seem to be too caught up on my comments. I wasn't asking anyone to agree with what I was saying. I was just expressing what I would be looking for personally (and what I am looking for, for that matter).

Though I am surprised a city of the size of Philadelphia would have no all-night grocery stores, especially if the downtown population is 80,000. My downtown probably has 25-30 24-hour grocery stores. One individual chain probably has 12-15 of those (this chain's stores are too large to be called "convenience stores", but too small to be called "supermarket"). When do the grocery stores in downtown Philly close anyways? Are most of them shut down by 1am or 2am? Even the convenience stores?

Is this important? I wasn't suggesting it's important to anyone, I was suggesting it's important to me.

BTW, does downtown Philly have lots of late-night/all-night restaurants, or are those few and far between as well?

[monsoon]

Man, I grew up in Myrtle Beach where there is 24 hour everything. (and warm enough weather where you can enjoy it too) Yet I don't think we ever had a need to go buy a can of cat food or shoe polish at 3am in the morning. Is there that much a need for a 24hour grocery to make a place a decent place to live?

[stinkweed]

You seem to be too caught up on my comments. I wasn't asking anyone to agree with what I was saying. I was just expressing what I would be looking for personally (and what I am looking for, for that matter).

Though I am surprised a city of the size of Philadelphia would have no all-night grocery stores, especially if the downtown population is 80,000. My downtown probably has 25-30 24-hour grocery stores. One individual chain probably has 12-15 of those (this chain's stores are too large to be called "convenience stores", but too small to be called "supermarket"). When do the grocery stores in downtown Philly close anyways? Are most of them shut down by 1am or 2am? Even the convenience stores?

Is this important? I wasn't suggesting it's important to anyone, I was suggesting it's important to me.

BTW, does downtown Philly have lots of late-night/all-night restaurants, or are those few and far between as well?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When you say grocery I think of supermarkets Superfresh, Acme and the like. Is this regional or is this waht your asking. We do have several all night 7-11 and Wawa types open all night (circle K in south and west I think) As far as restaurants we have a dozen that I can think of. You keep referring to things you've stated in the past. Sorry, I don't feel like going back and reading the whole thread. Are you moving? looking for a town like you describe?

[stinkweed]

When you say grocery I think of supermarkets Superfresh, Acme and the like.  Is this regional or is this waht your asking.  We do have several all night 7-11 and Wawa types open all night (circle K in south and west I think)  As far as restaurants we have a dozen that I can think of.  You keep referring to things you've stated in the past.  Sorry, I don't feel like going back and reading the whole thread.  Are you moving?  looking for a town like you describe?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I love the all you can eat buffets in Myrtle beach but a bit redneck for me. I rented a house with my asian girlfriend for the 4th a few years back. You can imagine the look on her face as the locals drove their golf carts in the parade with confederate flags.

[G W North]

Well, personally I'm an insomniac on the weekends, so at the very least I want some 24-hour convenience stores within walking distance. Plus the culture here is to go out to eat after leaving the club at 2:30am or so. So at least a few restaurants open until at least 4am is good. Luckily Chinatown is packed with places for the after-club crowd (some of these places are open 24 hours, many close at 4am or 5am). My friends and I have waited 20 minutes for a table at 3am in Chinatown at some of the more popular places.

Of course, on top of amenities, there are aesthetic concerns. I wouldn't want to live in a neighborhood with above-ground parking garages or lots vacant buildings/retail spaces.

I'm looking for a new place to live this week. My current door-to-door commute averages about 45 minutes in the morning, and about 50-55 minutes coming home in the evening. This is absurd, and I am sick of it. I want no more than 25-30 minutes each way, door-to-door.

As far as supermarkets, probably 40-50% of the major supermarkets here are open 24 hours.

[monsoon]

I love the all you can eat buffets in Myrtle beach but a bit redneck for me.  I rented a house with my asian girlfriend for the 4th a few years back.  You can imagine the look on her face as the locals drove their golf carts in the parade with confederate flags.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well Myrtle Beach caters to all tastes. You should have rented one of the multimillion dollar condos if you were wanting to impress your woman with material things.

[stinkweed]

Well, personally I'm an insomniac on the weekends, so at the very least I want some 24-hour convenience stores within walking distance. Plus the culture here is to go out to eat after leaving the club at 2:30am or so. So at least a few restaurants open until at least 4am is good. Luckily Chinatown is packed with places for the after-club crowd (some of these places are open 24 hours, many close at 4am or 5am). My friends and I have waited 20 minutes for a table at 3am in Chinatown at some of the more popular places.

Of course, on top of amenities, there are aesthetic concerns. I wouldn't want to live in a neighborhood with above-ground parking garages or lots vacant buildings/retail spaces.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, to be young again. I also spent many a night in chinatown competely hammered and waiting for dumplings. I forgot, several places in our chinatoen are open all night. My favorite was My Ly Wa, the best dumplings in town. What town are you from anyway?

[stinkweed]

Well Myrtle Beach caters to all tastes.  You should have rented one of the multimillion dollar condos if you were wanting to impress your woman with material things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We ate at the buffet as I said. Muti-million dollar condos don't fit into the budget.

[G W North]

I'm not really young, I just act that way, LOL.

[monsoon]

GW, you have always spoken with a wisdom that gives away your age to us that are "in the know". I have greatly appreciated your participation at UP.

[RestedTraveler]

I'm a late bloomer; however, here are my picks:

Chicago

Boston

Denver

Greenville (South Carolina)

New Orleans

Seattle

Baltimore

Detroit

Cleveland

Milwaukee

[ironchapman]

New York has the best, by far. SanFran is pretty nice. Same thing goes for Bosotn.

My favorite is Chicago's.

My hometown Atlanta's is probably second on my list. It's not very dense, but we're working on it.

[Clobber]

Here're mine (in no particular order)

New York

Miami

Seattle

Boston

San Fran

Chicago

I also like New Orleans, San Antonio, and Memphis. I think Memphis in particular has one of the more impressive downtowns atmosphere-wise for a city its size (and, in the South I'd say for a city of any size). It certainly isn't yet reflected in its skyline, however (although that will be changing). If it had a skyline to reflect its street-level vibrance, it'd be outstanding.

Heard decent things about Denver, Jacksonville, but can't personally vouch for 'em.