Plaza-Midwood Projects (Central, Commonwealth, The Plaza)

[SouthEndCLT811]

Ah thanks for digging into it.  Driving out that way at lunch for some personal stuff (potentially buying a home out that way) and was curious.

 

I think this development and Morningside will really liven up this part of Central.  Not to mention there are a few other lots that could potentially be redeveloped.  I just hope all the charming single story retail buildings can be re purposed as the neighborhood evolves.

[Niner National]

FYI, the new owners of Brodt plan to demo the former Shine Salon spot and the other house for parking for the new brewery.

[Guest]

FYI, the new owners of Brodt plan to demo the former Shine Salon spot and the other house for parking for the new brewery.

BOOOOO!!!!!!!! I don't want a brewery there anymore.

Unless they are bulldozing it for a sizable beer garden as well.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Guest

[archiham04]

I am less worried about the additional parking/loss of structure and more worried about the 3 curb cuts for this one business.  There is an alley access (almost) at the rear of the property.  I wish they could shore up the sidewalk here and max out the onstreet diagonal parking...

[pgsinger]

BOOOOO!!!!!!!! I don't want a brewery there anymore.

Unless they are bulldozing it for a sizable beer garden as well.

 

They probably need the extra parking to comply with zoning restrictions as the new use will eliminate any grandfathered zoning exceptions.  No way they get a variance with the existing parking spaces and the use change to a restaurant.  So, it is either brewery + parking - buildings, or no brewery.  Regardless, parking is getting really tight and will only get tighter as Legion Brewing, Workman's Friend, and the various apartment complexes open (more residents will mean more visitors).  These two buildings are pretty crappy, so I have no issue seeing them go.  I do hope they do a large outside area, which I expect anyway since it is in PM and a brewery.  It would be pretty freaking cool if they went up and did another large rooftop, though I have no idea if that is possible.

 

One thing that has not been discussed in this thread yet is the possibility of future bike B-Cycle locations in PM.  One or two here in the heart of PM, Veteran's Park, and then one up near 5 points, would be ideal.  Add two more in Elizabeth (7th-Pecan and 7th-Hawthorne) and you have bike connectivity all the way to South End! 

[plaza-midwooder]

They probably need the extra parking to comply with zoning restrictions as the new use will eliminate any grandfathered zoning exceptions.  No way they get a variance with the existing parking spaces and the use change to a restaurant.  So, it is either brewery + parking - buildings, or no brewery.  Regardless, parking is getting really tight and will only get tighter as Legion Brewing, Workman's Friend, and the various apartment complexes open (more residents will mean more visitors).  These two buildings are pretty crappy, so I have no issue seeing them go.  I do hope they do a large outside area, which I expect anyway since it is in PM and a brewery.  It would be pretty freaking cool if they went up and did another large rooftop, though I have no idea if that is possible.

 

One thing that has not been discussed in this thread yet is the possibility of future bike B-Cycle locations in PM.  One or two here in the heart of PM, Veteran's Park, and then one up near 5 points, would be ideal.  Add two more in Elizabeth (7th-Pecan and 7th-Hawthorne) and you have bike connectivity all the way to South End! 

I couldn't agree more about the comments above both on Legion and on B-Cycle. I keep sending emails to B-cycle asking them to open up another location in PM but to no avail. Maybe if enough people bug them it will happen...

[tozmervo]

having talked to the ED of BCycle before, I know P-M, NoDa, etc are all close to their heart for expansion. It's really a combination of real estate and $ to make it happen

[Guest]

having talked to the ED of BCycle before, I know P-M, NoDa, etc are all close to their heart for expansion. It's really a combination of real estate and $ to make it happen

don't they have one of these? I though everyone did...

[kermit]

If the city was willing to take the lead I honestly think that a plan for comprehensive bike infrastructure in the inner ring combined with bikeshare expansion could be TIGER grantable. To have a shot at wining it would need to have a creative component to it that makes it more than just paths and bikes (e.g. complete streeting or closing off Elizabeth and Trade to cars and making it a ped / bike / streetcar corridor). Perhaps throw in a pilot program to combine CATS passes with bcycle membership (plus combined transit / bike lane (path) route maps posted at stations and in CATS LRT vehicles) to create better integration between modes.

Edited October 28, 2014 by kermit

[southslider]

Real estate shouldn't be a problem for B-Cycle in Plaza-Midwood. They have the City lot at Thomas and Central, plus numerous curb extensions along Commonwealth.

[pgsinger]

having talked to the ED of BCycle before, I know P-M, NoDa, etc are all close to their heart for expansion. It's really a combination of real estate and $ to make it happen

 

How much RE do they need and how much cash would it take?  There is probably enough demand in PM and the surrounding areas to raise some decent cash from individuals.  If CMC was willing to match donations for new locations, then it could be easily achieved.  Knowing someone over at CMC that is connected to this area, I could pose that question.    I found an article that stated a bcycle station in Madison, WI costs $30k-$60k.  Not sure how much of that is RE costs, but that might not be too hard to raise with some corporate matching.

 

If the city was willing to take the lead I honestly think that a plan for comprehensive bike infrastructure in the inner ring combined with bikeshare expansion could be TIGER grantable. To have a shot at wining it would need to have a creative component to it that makes it more than just paths and bikes (e.g. complete streeting or closing off Elizabeth and Trade to cars and making it a ped / bike / streetcar corridor). Perhaps throw in a pilot program to combine CATS passes with bcycle membership (plus combined transit / bike lane (path) route maps posted at stations and in CATS LRT vehicles) to create better integration between modes.

 

Would this hurt other local TIGER grants, i.e. the Gold Line?  Also, a thought on Elizabeth between Kings and Hawthorne, would be to close it to through traffic except rush hour.  I honestly wonder if it shouldn't be closed permanently anyway.  One thing that is starting to happen due to the boom in PM and the continued over crowding of Independence is the North/South streets in Elizabeth and PM are becoming crushed with traffic.  It takes far too long to get from Providence or Randolph to Monroe or Central using Hawthorne and Caswell.  It's actually faster to head all the way to Kings and go down 7th or continue through to Central.  Some of this is clearly the closure of Elizabeth and Kings, but if you shut down Elizabeth to Hawthorne, you force traffic up Kings to 7th and Central, and reduce through traffic to Hawthorne, making it easier for people to go North on Hawthorne.  Though, I am not sure how you get rid of the bottle neck at 7th and Pecan.

[teeg]

Driving between PM and Elizabeth has always been a hassle, but I have noticed that it is much worse recently.  I am sure that the gold line construction in front of Presby made matters worse, but even before that it was a mess.  And it's reopened now, but Caswell is still choked.

 

I cannot picture what else the could do with Pecan/Clement at 7th, but I have long wondered if a lot of the backups there are because Hawthorne does not have a dedicated left turn lane and signal at 7th.  If you were leaving Presbyterian or Mercy with the intention of going inbound on 7th, Clement is the easier and much safer choice.  Even with the bottle neck, once you get to 7th you can make the left without fighting oncoming traffic.  Reducing Hawthorne to 3 vehicle lanes (+ bike lanes!), with the center lane left turn only, might help take some of the pressure off of Caswell, and make Hawthorne a heck of a lot more pleasant to boot.  

[southslider]

Gold Line Phase 2 would convert Hawthorne at 7th from 4 lanes to 3 lanes, including left turn lanes.

Edited October 29, 2014 by southslider

[Midwoodian]

Two quick questions about some rumored developments in PM:

 

1.  I saw someone mention a Bruegger's Bagels potentially coming into PM in this thread a while back...are there actual plans/rumors of this going in or was that wishful thinking?

2.  Anyone know where things stand with the Advanced Auto Parts.  Honestly, I wish it wouldnt go in...IMO that lot would be so much better for another use.  Are they wanting to add competition to the AutoZone down the hill?  I just dont get putting an Advanced Auto parts there...but thats me...

 

Thanks!

[archiham04]

Driving between PM and Elizabeth has always been a hassle, but I have noticed that it is much worse recently.  I am sure that the gold line construction in front of Presby made matters worse, but even before that it was a mess.  And it's reopened now, but Caswell is still choked.

 

I cannot picture what else the could do with Pecan/Clement at 7th, but I have long wondered if a lot of the backups there are because Hawthorne does not have a dedicated left turn lane and signal at 7th.  If you were leaving Presbyterian or Mercy with the intention of going inbound on 7th, Clement is the easier and much safer choice.  Even with the bottle neck, once you get to 7th you can make the left without fighting oncoming traffic.  Reducing Hawthorne to 3 vehicle lanes (+ bike lanes!), with the center lane left turn only, might help take some of the pressure off of Caswell, and make Hawthorne a heck of a lot more pleasant to boot.  

I feel your pain.  It is interesting that you mention Clement.  At one time Clement was planned to be the main artery between the neighborhoods, with a bridge over the tracks... this pre-dates independence.  If you look at the right-of-way for Clement in Elizabeth... it is identical to Hawthorne.  At the very least I think they should put a bike/pedestrian connection at the end of Clement, connecting across the tracks to Chantilly.

I don' t think the grades would support it, but connecting Clement under Indy would also help congestion.

I also think they chould build a bridge at Louise.  The residents on Louise would probably have a conniption.

[teeg]

^ Clement was even set up for streetcar service, right?  But I meant to say Caswell.  Not sure how I mixed that up, except that I often sneak through the neighborhood to avoid Pecan.  My apologies to everyone how lives on Clement, and also 8th.  I'll try to stick to the main roads going forward.   

[southslider]

Correct, Clement in Elizabeth was setup for streetcar, but never built. Ironically, Clement in Midwood wasn't setup for streetcar, though Gold Line is planned to use Clement (and Hawthorne) as a way around the Central CSX railroad crossing. Still, that may never be built either, given it's outside Phase 2, which isn't even officially funded yet

[pgsinger]

I believe it is that lot and the lot to the west.  In fact, the demo I saw yesterday was to the first building to the west of your street view link.  I'll try to get a pic up tomorrow.

 

This is a few days late, but you know the saying.

 

 

[Guest]

I've been looking over the plans for the new outdoor patio for Healthy Home Market... Does anyone understand the function? I see there'll be a little bit of outdoor seating, but what about the rest of it. Will they have the opportunity for an outdoor farmers market. I find it hard to believe they would removed a dozen parking spots for a small outdoors seating area and a very large overhang.

[southslider]

^Patio also benefits adjoining businesses in same commercial center

[Yulupa76]

Hey guys, let me introduce myself.  I am a Commonwealth resident (since 2006) and have become an almost daily peruser of UP-Charlotte (great discussions and a great source for learning about the latest development rumors!).  I became a convert to new urbanism and moved to Commonwealth from the 'burbs (Arboretum area) in 2006 when the proposed Gold Line, Briar Creek greenway, Morningside Village, etc. made  the Central Ave. corridor /PM look like a sure bet (lesson learned). 

 

I was discouraged to hear about the planned demo of the two houses to provide surface parking next to Brodt Music.  While I understand the need for parking for the new brewery, it seems like a step backward.   It also seems like the no-brainer fix is a shared parking facility.  I would think would it would be profitable (and enhance property values and tax revenue) and free up a lot of space currently used for parking for more aesthetically pleasing, pedestrian friendly options (like more patio dinging, outdoor markets, etc.).   

 

Anyone have any thoughts on what it would take to make that happen? When is the last time (if ever) the city built a shared parking facility and where?

I understand why the city/county reluctant to use  eminent domain powers but I would think a facility could be a boon to all involved.  I've gotta believe the PM business owners have put some thought into this issue but don't know if lobbying anyone a city hall would make any difference.   Any shared thoughts would be greatly appreciated.   Thanks!

[pgsinger]

Hey guys, let me introduce myself.  I am a Commonwealth resident (since 2006) and have become an almost daily peruser of UP-Charlotte (great discussions and a great source for learning about the latest development rumors!).  I became a convert to new urbanism and moved to Commonwealth from the 'burbs (Arboretum area) in 2006 when the proposed Gold Line, Briar Creek greenway, Morningside Village, etc. made  the Central Ave. corridor /PM look like a sure bet (lesson learned). 

 

I was discouraged to hear about the planned demo of the two houses to provide surface parking next to Brodt Music.  While I understand the need for parking for the new brewery, it seems like a step backward.   It also seems like the no-brainer fix is a shared parking facility.  I would think would it would be profitable (and enhance property values and tax revenue) and free up a lot of space currently used for parking for more aesthetically pleasing, pedestrian friendly options (like more patio dinging, outdoor markets, etc.).   

 

Anyone have any thoughts on what it would take to make that happen? When is the last time (if ever) the city built a shared parking facility and where?

I understand why the city/county reluctant to use  eminent domain powers but I would think a facility could be a boon to all involved.  I've gotta believe the PM business owners have put some thought into this issue but don't know if lobbying anyone a city hall would make any difference.   Any shared thoughts would be greatly appreciated.   Thanks!

 

I'll have to let someone else speak definitely to the city's previous efforts to build a parking deck.  I believe the 7th Street Station deck had some city funding, and then Levine world obviously has some public/private partnership to get the park and decks done there.  However, I believe these were both City Center Partners (CCP) driven developments.  CCP has yet to turn their focus to the "inner ring" having solely focused on Uptown and South End historically and currently looking towards N. Tryon (though their area of focus remains inside 277).  Without a strong group like that, I would think there is no hope for a public/private deck.  I also do not think the city would use Kilo type eminent domain to put a deck in.

 

Also, putting a deck in would not remedy the parking issues for Legion Brewery, or any other business for that matter.  Unless they were in very close proximity (think 100ft) and had reserved spaces in a deck, the city would not count those spaces for parking requirements.  There would be some possibility that a deck in the area would make the city more receptive to zoning variances for reduced parking, but I am not aware of any examples for that.  There are only real two hopes for improved parking that I can see.  The first is an office building going in somewhere.  A mid-rise building that could lease its parking after hours.  The second, and maybe more likely, would be an apartment complex that fronts a street like Central and has significant retail.  Then the complex may reserve parking for those retail units and set up a security gate for resident's cars. You won't see most complexes doing this because their parking will be in high demand during evenings and nights.  

 

My hunch is, we need to get through the most recent bubble of apartment building and hope that it gets us to a critical mass of population to start making retail on Central more viable for future developments.  Then we may see more retail focused complexes in the next cycle.

 

However, with respect to these two buildings, seriously?  They should go.  Neither does a good job of utilizing space on their parcel, and the one in the back is never going to be anything interesting given its lack of visibility.  I am all for holding on to existing buildings, but it doesn't make sense in every situation.  Just compare these buildings to the rest of the Commonwealth strip, buildings like the Diamond, Okra, Brodt should absolutely be kept...but not these two.

[Niner National]

I agree with pgsinger about these buildings. Sure, I'd rather not see a parking lot go up there, but I don't mind seeing those two houses go. If a parking deck is ever developed in the neighborhood, the parking lot could always be developed into something else.

[NCpride]

Agreed these two buildings should go to make way for structures that will better utilize the space. I hate to hear a parking lot will take their place. In lieu of more surface lots/decks, folks that don't live in Plaza should just get a ride with Lyft or Uber, espeically if they're coming over to drink at one of the neighborhood bars.

 

Veering off topic a bit, but still related to the best use of space in Plaza; my biggest wish for the neighborhood would be to doze everything in the Family Dollar shopping center and essentially turn that entire parcel into a Charlotte version of Dolores Park. A pipe dream I know, but wow would it add so much character to the area and create even more demand for urban-style retail and residential surrounding it.

 

[km1789]

I'll have to let someone else speak definitely to the city's previous efforts to build a parking deck.  I believe the 7th Street Station deck had some city funding, and then Levine world obviously has some public/private partnership to get the park and decks done there.  However, I believe these were both City Center Partners (CCP) driven developments.  CCP has yet to turn their focus to the "inner ring" having solely focused on Uptown and South End historically and currently looking towards N. Tryon (though their area of focus remains inside 277).  Without a strong group like that, I would think there is no hope for a public/private deck.  I also do not think the city would use Kilo type eminent domain to put a deck in.

 

Also, putting a deck in would not remedy the parking issues for Legion Brewery, or any other business for that matter.  Unless they were in very close proximity (think 100ft) and had reserved spaces in a deck, the city would not count those spaces for parking requirements.  There would be some possibility that a deck in the area would make the city more receptive to zoning variances for reduced parking, but I am not aware of any examples for that.  There are only real two hopes for improved parking that I can see.  The first is an office building going in somewhere.  A mid-rise building that could lease its parking after hours.  The second, and maybe more likely, would be an apartment complex that fronts a street like Central and has significant retail.  Then the complex may reserve parking for those retail units and set up a security gate for resident's cars. You won't see most complexes doing this because their parking will be in high demand during evenings and nights.  

 

My hunch is, we need to get through the most recent bubble of apartment building and hope that it gets us to a critical mass of population to start making retail on Central more viable for future developments.  Then we may see more retail focused complexes in the next cycle.

 

However, with respect to these two buildings, seriously?  They should go.  Neither does a good job of utilizing space on their parcel, and the one in the back is never going to be anything interesting given its lack of visibility.  I am all for holding on to existing buildings, but it doesn't make sense in every situation.  Just compare these buildings to the rest of the Commonwealth strip, buildings like the Diamond, Okra, Brodt should absolutely be kept...but not these two.

 

 

Center City Partners administers the Municipal Services District within the I-277 loop and South End, and cannot focus outside of those boundaries as that is the tax pool their funding comes from. The only way that they could extend their reach into the inner ring is if the majority of businesses/residents in an area elect to tax themselves at a special rate so that CCCP services could available in that area.