Plaza-Midwood Projects (Central, Commonwealth, The Plaza)

[Miesian Corners]

1 hour ago, tozmervo said:

I get what you're saying about the materiality of the larger buildings. It has the same fiber cement panel look that doesn't really jive with P-M.  I'm also a little concerned that the street level renderings almost entirely focus on the *interior* of the development, as opposed to how it integrates into Central & Pecan. 

Central and Pecan will still be a terrible setback CVS. 

[JacksonH]

1 hour ago, Urban Cowboy said:

This project is literally saving and tastefully incorporating historic structures. The only historic charm in Plaza Midwood IMO is residential along Thomas Avenue. And arguably the business frontage along Central. I'm all for this project. And this is 1.5 blocks from the gold line terminus. We should be encouraging this type of development. It has LOTS of retail, office, and residential. And continues Commonwealth through the development, effectively extending the urban fabric of PM's core. PM will never be the PM of 15 years ago. So odd how people like to complain (not saying you are JacksonH). But how many of these people *really* want to live in the PM of years ago? 

 

 

Don't get me wrong.  I'm actually very excited about this project.  I just think a few tweaks here and there could make it much better aesthetically.  Either way it will be a vast improvement over what's there now.

[Cadi40]

Personally speaking I cannot stand the South End Banker Brewery Bros (B.B.B. for short), but that's not a valid reason for me not to like the project. Let's hope for some decent retail establishments. I think I mix of local business and soft good retailers would do the area well. 

[cltbwimob]

I think this project looks awesome. Sure it has a bit of a SouthEnd look, but it looks like the buildings are reasonably high quality and aesthetically pleasing.  Coupled with the fact they are saving the 2 historic buildings and will have lots of ground level retail...grade A in my opinion.

Wish more development/redevelopment of the early-mid 2010s looked like this.  
 

*Edit: needs some sort of pedestrian connection to Sunnyside (perhaps a bridge over the RR tracks) to make Gold Line accessibility super convenient.

Edited September 7, 2021 by cltbwimob

[kermit]

I like it too, the center historic building, with new rooftop area added, has a Kings Cross / St Pancras vibe with the mix of modern and historic. 
 

Edited September 8, 2021 by kermit

[j-man]

8 hours ago, jtmonk said:

I like it.

 

This project actually looks more Plaza Midwood than a lot of the more recent apartments put into the area. I love the outdoor space and the color scheme going on. Love the office building and the smaller building in the middle. Wish the apartments had a little bit more of a Plaza Midwood look. They are a bit too modern but overall seems like a solid looking project. How will it  mesh with the neighborhood, I don’t know, but I hope it is well received and doesn’t displace people or local businesses. And lastly my wish is that all the retail will be local retailers and no big names. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by j-man

[southslider]

7 hours ago, Urban Cowboy said:

But how many of these people *really* want to live in the PM of years ago? 

 

I used to live a block from this site and am happy to finally see urban infill here. When I first moved to PM back before Obama, my boss joked if my bungalow were ever broken into, I could just go over to the various pawn shops to recover my stuff.  I'd often be the only one walking across the tracks on Central before there were any apartments.  Change is good.  I can always look at my Hipsters in the Ghetto magnet when I'm feeling nostalgic. 

[kermit]

^ In June 2000 I was looking for my first house in Charlotte. My favorite was on Thomas st near Kinsington. Unfortunately I decided it was out of my price range (around $180k), so I ended up in  Dilworth, which, strangely, was cheaper than PM at the time.

Edited September 8, 2021 by kermit

[Norm2]

I haven't looked at this new development closely, but i hope it has store fronts and engagement in the streets that surround it. I don't want this to be a Metropolitan situation where the internal road as the store front and the surrounding roads are ignored

[Madison Parkitect]

19 hours ago, tozmervo said:

I get what you're saying about the materiality of the larger buildings. It has the same fiber cement panel look that doesn't really jive with P-M.  I'm also a little concerned that the street level renderings almost entirely focus on the *interior* of the development, as opposed to how it integrates into Central & Pecan. 

This is my biggest problem with it, it seems like a very inward-facing development when it really should open up to Central. Even the linear park is shoved back against the railroad behind the dog park. It makes the park space only really available to people who work or live in the development. I like the design and love that they're saving the historic buildings, but I have a real problem with the site plan.

11 hours ago, kermit said:

^ In June 2000 I was looking for my first house in Charlotte. My favorite was on Thomas st near Kinsington. Unfortunately I decided it was out of my price range (around $180k), so I ended up in  Dilworth, which, strangely, was cheaper than PM at the time.

Exactly this. Everyone up in arms about how it's "gentrifying Plaza Midwood" doesn't remember that it's never been cheap to live there. It was just a cheap place to hang out along Central/Thomas. But Plaza Midwood is a country club neighborhood with literal mansions on the other side of Central.

[RANYC]

31 minutes ago, Madison Parkitect said:

This is my biggest problem with it, it seems like a very inward-facing development when it really should open up to Central. Even the linear park is shoved back against the railroad behind the dog park. It makes the park space only really available to people who work or live in the development. I like the design and love that they're saving the historic buildings, but I have a real problem with the site plan.

Exactly this. Everyone up in arms about how it's "gentrifying Plaza Midwood" doesn't remember that it's never been cheap to live there. It was just a cheap place to hang out along Central/Thomas. But Plaza Midwood is a country club neighborhood with literal mansions on the other side of Central.

There's quite the fury on social media, but not a fury unique to Charlotte.

New developments in many parts of America bring in luxury units, wealthier people with more discretionary income who attract more upscale commercial offerings, driving up surrounding residential and commercial rents.  And given the wealthier people are smaller and smaller shares of the population, you end up with a lot of alienation and then anger.  We see progress in the redevelopment of an unsightly parking lot, and others see eventual banishment (even though many of them don't likely live there, but just go there to hang out or to patronize cheap shops).

If each Charlotte neighborhood were better defined by some community or district civic asset, maybe there wouldn't be the same fears and sense of alienation.  If there were a Plaza Midwood Square or Public Plaza, guaranteeing the public a quirky place for assembly and cultural celebration and enrichment, then maybe large-scale projects like this wouldn't be so unsettling to people.

Edited September 8, 2021 by RANYC

[CTiger]

4 hours ago, Madison Parkitect said:

This is my biggest problem with it, it seems like a very inward-facing development when it really should open up to Central. Even the linear park is shoved back against the railroad behind the dog park. It makes the park space only really available to people who work or live in the development. I like the design and love that they're saving the historic buildings, but I have a real problem with the site plan.

The rendering that shows Central looks to include wide sidewalks and retail.  I think the city needs think about how to slow traffic down on that stretch of Central to see much more than that.   It feels way better walking up between Pecan and Thomas because it goes down to one lane and everyone drives a bit slower.   Its the same issue with South Blvd in Southend.   I'd love to see some patio dining options in this area, but not sure it would feel too cozy there.

Regardless, I think it would be hard for this development not to be a big improvement here.   I wish we could go back in time and hold some of the other developments on this strip to a higher standard in this regard, because everything around this has already closed itself off to Central and Pecan.  If you look at what is around this development you have a CVS surrounded by surface parking, an apartment building's leasing office, Snooze which sandwiched parking between itself and the sidewalk, a pawn shop with bars on the windows, Midwood Smokehouse which also sandwiched parking between itself and the sidewalk, two more commercial buildings with zero pedestrian interaction, and the corpse of a Dairy Queen from 70 years ago.   Pecan isn't too much better.

[kermit]

7 minutes ago, CTiger said:

I think the city needs think about how to slow traffic down on that stretch of Central to see much more than that.  

Take two lanes away for streetcar, include elevated crosswalks every block. 99% of folks passing through in a car should be on Independence anyway.

[southslider]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

Take two lanes away for streetcar, include elevated crosswalks every block. 99% of folks passing through in a car should be on Independence anyway.

Speaking of elevated crosswalks, about the only thing I'd change with this proposal is a ped bridge over the RR to provide an easier walk from the Sunnyside station on Gold Line.

And if you're thinking Gold Line will be eventually go farther east, then this very development is a poster child for leveraging the increase in tax valuation to pay for it sooner.

[RANYC]

2 hours ago, CTiger said:

The rendering that shows Central looks to include wide sidewalks and retail.  I think the city needs think about how to slow traffic down on that stretch of Central to see much more than that.   It feels way better walking up between Pecan and Thomas because it goes down to one lane and everyone drives a bit slower.   Its the same issue with South Blvd in Southend.   I'd love to see some patio dining options in this area, but not sure it would feel too cozy there.

Regardless, I think it would be hard for this development not to be a big improvement here.   I wish we could go back in time and hold some of the other developments on this strip to a higher standard in this regard, because everything around this has already closed itself off to Central and Pecan.  If you look at what is around this development you have a CVS surrounded by surface parking, an apartment building's leasing office, Snooze which sandwiched parking between itself and the sidewalk, a pawn shop with bars on the windows, Midwood Smokehouse which also sandwiched parking between itself and the sidewalk, two more commercial buildings with zero pedestrian interaction, and the corpse of a Dairy Queen from 70 years ago.   Pecan isn't too much better.

There's gotta be a study or data on this.  You don't get a vibrant line of storefronts for pedestrians to walk from shop to shop, unless speeding cars on the drag aren't in the pedestrian's awareness.  In this project, the developers create Commonwealth Street cutting through the center of the development - this new street is 2-lanes, and narrow enough so that Pedestrians feel prioritized because the sidewalk space is almost wider in the aggregate than the street width.  The reason this developer likely didn't extend the feel of the Central Avenue shopfronts to this project is that Central Avenue just isn't a pedestrian-prioritized street.  

Edited September 8, 2021 by RANYC

[atlrvr]

The site plans posted above literally show all frontage in Central lined in retail on the apartment ground floor and the existing retail building remaining with expanded outdoor seating.  There couldn't be any more retail on Central if they tried.  CVS breaks up the urban streetscape, but I'm sure there wasn't a price they could pay to get them to move.

[RANYC]

Walked by Atherton Mill yesterday and clearly saw that the Plaza Midwood Commonwealth project is so radically different, and frankly, better designed than Atherton.  That Atherton garage is so visually pronounced - no commitment to micro-retail or incubator space as far as I can tell - you have to walk across a parking lot (instead of a pedestrian plaza or public square) to get from Tremont or South Blvd to the O-Ku part of Atherton.  So yea, no comparison. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by RANYC

[Prodev]

13 hours ago, atlrvr said:

The site plans posted above literally show all frontage in Central lined in retail on the apartment ground floor and the existing retail building remaining with expanded outdoor seating.  There couldn't be any more retail on Central if they tried.  CVS breaks up the urban streetscape, but I'm sure there wasn't a price they could pay to get them to move.

CVS has lease term until 2042, so don't expect them to go anywhere anytime soon. I also remember some language in their lease that limited what you could do anywhere that was adjacent to their property line, so Crosland may have given them additional lease term in exchange for some more flexibility there, but that's just a guess. 

[nakers2]

Late to the game here, but I spent way too much time this week explaining to people that you can’t limit the growth of a place like Plaza without hurting the neighborhood. The residents there need to take this and “Plazafy” it, but anyone with half a brain ought to see this as a far better option than the huge parking lot that was once there. When I lived in Plaza I can personally attest that more often than not I’d drive to the other side of Plaza purely because of the poor pedestrian landscape that Central Square provided. This will create a much more walkable environment by engaging with foot traffic, and I guarantee this will not only have parking, but will also provide *public* parking. If it’s gonna exist, it needs to be available. Central Square was greedy. I had some facebook friend who was actually upset because “they’re taking away parking” and I’m like how? It’s not like you could park there without getting a boot. There’s no place in Charlotte where you can’t park your car within 5 mins of a business. I’ve tested it. 

[Synopsis101]

No ugly planting strips, which means I dig this development.

[southslider]

19 hours ago, Prodev said:

CVS has lease term until 2042, so don't expect them to go anywhere anytime soon.

At some point, spillover parking is going to become either such a headache, they'll willingly break their lease early, or so lucrative, they may as well just become a valet service.

[Third Strike]

6 hours ago, southslider said:

At some point, spillover parking is going to become either such a headache, they'll willingly break their lease early, or so lucrative, they may as well just become a valet service.

I wouldn’t mind CVS staying on that corner, but I would love it if they upgraded to a more urban store.  Something similar to this:

[go_vertical]

I wouldn't be surprised if that happened sooner rather than later. 

[go_vertical]

So the old Penguin sign has finally been replaced. Please tell me someone knows if it was saved or not. I know it's just a sign, but I think a lot of long time Charlotte residents hold it in high regard. I certainly do. When I first moved to the QC way back in the late 90's I rented a duplex with a friend off Hall avenue and the Penguin was a regular haunt. PBR pitchers and fried pickles.... oh the memories. I'd say that sign is as quintessential Charlotte as the Queen Park and JFG signs. 

[KJHburg]

5 minutes ago, go_vertical said:

So the old Penguin sign has finally been replaced. Please tell me someone knows if it was saved or not. I know it's just a sign, but I think a lot of long time Charlotte residents hold it in high regard. I certainly do. When I first moved to the QC way back in the late 90's I rented a duplex with a friend off Hall avenue and the Penguin was a regular haunt. PBR pitchers and fried pickles.... oh the memories. I'd say that sign is as quintessential Charlotte as the Queen Park and JFG signs. 

Yes I have heard it was saved cant remember by whom but I saw something on twitter about it I think.