Plaza-Midwood Projects (Central, Commonwealth, The Plaza)

[sfmartin]

The Vyne's website is now fleshed out a bit. I had thought this was going on the opposite side of Central - but I guess Tuscan hasn't released any info on their site yet. The site plan doesn't get me particularly excited, but I like the park on the corner.

One positive note from Dougie's article is that they hope to move the old Plummer house rather than junking it.

[CLTNative]

I obtained a brochure for The Vyne. This document says they DO have land on the opposite side of Central that is to be included in the project. Phase II is my bet. The house across Central has already been moved/demolished correct? I would think they would start on that side of the street since the, from what I remember, that lot is already cleared.

I put the brochure out so people could see it. If you go to page 5, there is a paragraph above the site plan that mentions 12 acres total.

The Vyne Brochure

I just saw the article that mentions Tuscan.

Edited May 9, 2007 by CLTNative

[28202]

I bet the Celadon developers aren't going to be very happy to read that their representation is redirecting the prospects to other competitors sites...

[CLTNative]

Its all marketed under Helen Adams anyway, i don't think it matters. I simply expressed an interest in "Green" projects.

The word on the street for the Tuscan site is single family and townhomes starting around $200K. Nothing official yet. I do like the price points so far for the area. I really do not think that area of Central is ready for ultra-luxury projects seen in other parts of town.

[CLTNative]

Also, I meant to add that Celadon, though a nice project, is fairly picked over by now. Almost all of the remaining units are well beyond my price range.

[appatone]

I'm happy developers are finally going green but I don't like the look of the place. It sort of reminds me of a 1970's Blowing Rock Condo Plex. Or the really beat up 70's apartments in Boone that they over price the college students for. It has a mid century modern look to it but in an already dated/not so great kind of way.

[A2]

I concur appatone. The project is not truly modern IMO, and looks like it will fail to age well. (JMHO) :whistling:I know Beauty is in the "Eye of the Beholder", but this project is just not doing it for me. For that matter, nor did the canary yellow C27. I am fairly upset that we are sticking to a 70's style theme with this one. I hope this does not become the context for Centrals style of development with future projects. I love the eclectic look and feel of Central and would hate for a bunch of 70's style units to flood this wonderful, diverse part of the city.

A2

Edited May 10, 2007 by A2

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

Drove by old Fire and Ice today and noticed Snug Harbor is finally open for business. It was dark so I could see inside. It looked really cool inside and inviting. Also, they had a really large deck and patio area out back with lots of cool stringed- up lighting. Seems like a really good addition to what is already going on in this area. A live music venue is finally back in the PM. You bet I'll support this place-starting tommorrow night!

While I'm certainly glad to see such a spot open in my 'hood, that is one ugly building! I was hoping they would do something -- anything -- to it to make it look better/cooler/urban.

[cinco]

While I'm certainly glad to see such a spot open in my 'hood, that is one ugly building! I was hoping they would do something -- anything -- to it to make it look better/cooler/urban.

i agree it could be nicer... i'll find out some info on what they plan, if anything, to do on the outside. these guys aren't millionaires and i know that they put all their energy into getting the inside ready to open up shop. the owners are local midwoodians and are fervent about the hood. it's people like this who make plaza midwood the success it is and will be. same with zada jane... those guys just don't have the resources to do it over night, but, i feel like the wait will be worth it. i think in both cases - form will take some time following function.

i plan on going to snug - tonight.

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

i agree it could be nicer... i'll find out some info on what they plan, if anything, to do on the outside. these guys aren't millionaires and i know that they put all their energy into getting the inside ready to open up shop. the owners are local midwoodians and are fervent about the hood. it's people like this who make plaza midwood the success it is and will be. same with zada jane... those guys just don't have the resources to do it over night, but, i feel like the wait will be worth it. i think in both cases - form will take some time following function.

I understand that totally. And again, don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled to see them in PM!

[Conformity]

Some more questions from a developer about Commonwealth and Pecan:

Some background:

I live in Elizabeth.

Work 2 blocks down the street.

60-70% HT1 for grocery trips (Cotwold otherwise)

John's at least once a week. First name basis (as Jimmy is with most folks).

Dish for lunch meetings with employees, Lulu's for non-employees.

Nova's strawberry cream cheese croissants on Sunday mornings.

Etc. etc. Obviously, I have some Elizabeth allegiances as well.

Here's the thing....I can't figure out what to build there.

I appreciate the architectural images you've posted and they will be helpful. But here's the thing...no building, no matter how architecturally interesting, succeeds without a market.

Steelhaus was slow, but is picking up. We will likely have units left upon completion...a first for us.

Central 27 has units available

Plaza Vu is forthcoming.

The market has more choices than ever before.

Who buys here?...and specifically, why?....beyond the vibe of Thomas. What do they look like? You know....not literally, figuratively. I am a 40 year old white dude, who thinks dinner on Thomas, a movie at the Manor and an 11 PM bedtime is pretty big living. I'm liberal, but that shows up mostly through my choices at work, not overtly in how I live. I'm not even remotely hip or alternative and, while sensitive to my neighbors who are, I do not claim to understand what they might want from our development there (if they want to be there at all).

Who's the buyer. It's not young females....perceived security issues are too great. Pull up there and do a 360 walk around and ask the question again.

And if there is a buyer, what can they afford?...which brings us to another issue.......

Given the understandable affinity for Mom and Pops in the Thomas street area....an affinity I share. What happens when I have to lease my newly erected retail for $19 to $22/SF.... a reality, not open for the pontification that often follows this topic. But you need retail, right?....good for the neighborhood and buyers (if any) do not want to be on the ground floor at this location (of that much, I am certain).

There's a part of me that says....the idea of housing there in a mixed use format is a romantic one....it is not rooted in any way in demonstrable market data. But the other side of me says, the market is there, you just can't find it. That's the side I want to play to.

I've considered charretting it with the community and may well do so, but much of that input will be biased (as is all input, I suppose) toward things that have nothing to do with the risk associated with actually doing the develoment. To be more clear, if every business proprietor and 10 of their customers came to a charrette, will I have heard from a single actual buyer? about their needs and wants, as opposed to the emotions of those already connected to the area.

Any and all insights would be appreciated. I'd really appreciate getting your responses privately, but I suppose that doesn't really benefit the group....but it is a big group if you know what I mean.

Metro M.........am I alright along this line?

[Neo]

Metro M.........am I alright along this line?

You're ok, just tread carefully.

[SpanishMoss]

Some more questions from a developer about Commonwealth and Pecan:

Some background:

I live in Elizabeth.

Work 2 blocks down the street.

60-70% HT1 for grocery trips (Cotwold otherwise)

John's at least once a week. First name basis (as Jimmy is with most folks).

Dish for lunch meetings with employees, Lulu's for non-employees.

Nova's strawberry cream cheese croissants on Sunday mornings.

Etc. etc. Obviously, I have some Elizabeth allegiances as well.

Metro M.........am I alright along this line?

Conformity... First let me state that I love your projects. Per your post, it would be wonderful if your design would capture something similar to the "Rainbow Row" concept of Charleston (mixed-used of course). With the proposed design of Morningside Village along with PlazaVu, I think it would wonderful compliment to our community (pulling togethor Chantilly and Elizabeth). Answering the question "Who buys here?...and specifically, why?....", PEOPLE are buying here. Those people are from different locations such as New York, Boston, Chicago, Philly, etc... And those PEOPLE have an appreciation for urban dwellings. I am a 30 year old black man and I have enjoyed PMW since 2000. I purchased a home here because of the diversity, location, and fear of living in Mr. Robinsons Neighborhood. In talking with friends and collegues (the ones who are single\married, no kids, different ethinic background), they love what is happening with PMW. They wish they can buy in but are currently tied into homes that they purchased in the University area . Per their comments, the space must have a sizable living room and kitchen (for entertaining purposes) and that's basically it; everything else is features (but hose are the people that I have met).

[voyager12]

As a total layman when it comes to development issues I imagine community sensitive developers like Conformity are constantly torn between respecting neighborhood identity and ensuring profitability at the same time. Plaza Midwood is one very few areas of Charlotte that actually has some character. I have no information or understanding to base this on but I would rather see this corner be all residential with a design that fits the quirky spirit of the neighborhood. As opposed to an intensive mixed use site that would be forced to include chain stores and therefore contribute to the erosion of the area's much loved but quite fragile personality.

[Miesian Corners]

Can someone please tell me what's "green" about the Vyne? A visit to their website has large headlines about "Green", but when you read the links, there is no mention of what is environmentally friendly about it. And don't give me the line about energy star appliances and compact fluorescents. I live in a 1950s ranch with those. Does that mean I live in a green home? Sounds like Tuscan is misrepresenting their project.

[atlrvr]

Conformity,

Your site has really intrigued me much in the same way its confounded you. Over the last few weeks, I made a couple of attempts in Sketch-Up to create a model of what I thought was appropriate, just to delete them.

First, let me comment on Steelhaus. Great project, wrong site, though I completely understand why you did it. Your land basis was low enough that you could afford to take the risks with the design, audience, and price point. Of course the land was cheap because of the fact it was the wrong site (and you bought before the Great Charlotte Land Rush began). Luckily it was a small enough project that I doubt you'll be sitting on a lot of units.

The right site for Steelhaus, from a market standpoint, is the Autowerks site, but I know there is no way that the numers would come close to working, as it always the catch. You need higher $$$psf, and those likable artist probably can't swing that much cash, or at least not enough to fill the number of units you'd need to build.

Before I make my suggestion, let me address your most recent question. Who buys here? That in itself is the sticking point. 6 or 7 years ago, I used to frequent Urban Evolution, when it was still Urban Evolution, and talk to the workers, many who owned in PM or had friends who did. They were always talking about the great houses they bought on Thomas or Plaza for $60k, and how they had friends rewire it themselves, so it didn't burn to the ground. They used to roll their eyes incredulously about people they heard paying $110k from "renovated" places. Needless to say, that demographic still frequents PM, but they aren't buying anymore.

The next round of buyers transformed it into the gayborhood, and pushed the prices up quickly with their lousy dual disposable-incomes (and no kids) and trendy renovations. That paved the way for 4-5 years ago the place to be a true yuppies' pardise. A stablized neighborhood, where there was visions of large home value appreciations and the bragging rights of living some bohemian lifestyle. Prices were destined to climb, but then something happened. That something was neighborhood schools. Eventually yupppies have kids, and then being trendy takes a backseat to being responsible parents. Prices that were rapidly closing in on Elizabeth and Dilworth all of a sudden lost a leg, because Shamrock isn't exactly Eastover. At this time this buyer moves on, and is replaced by a younger version of themself.

So, what was left was a great neighborhood that couldn't break into the "superstar" neighborhood range. The ultimate affect though was that Central Ave was where cool "young" couples live, and with low interest rates and HGTV, everyone became a real estate pro. Chantilly was their first victory, then Commonwealth-Morningside, and anywhere else where people could join the "greater Plaza Midwood" community for less money. Believe me, I'm still kicking myself for not buying a 1926 bungalow on Logie about 18 months ago for $123k as I was playing hardball to get to $118k. That would have been the best return on $5k I would have ever made.

If my long-winded tale seems to have lost direction, let me summarize it as, people LOVE Plaza Midwood, BUT they love it because it represents a pioneering spirit.

Anyway, my feeling is, this project doesn't have a "buyer". Land prices have evolved, but the neighborhood hasn't, its just expanded geographically. It's not going to become a place where the transplant family decides to raise their teenagers, the corporate executive isn't going to have his "city condo" here, and the trust fund college grad can't use P-M as part of his pick-up line at Bentley's.

Plaza-Vu hasn't exactly blown them away with sales (interestingly, of the 10-11 units reserved, only 1 is on the 2nd floor, the rest are 1st or 3rd floor units). But at $220-$240psf and Eastern European dormority design, I don't get the feeling that the pioneer spirit of the Plaza Midwood buyer is evoked....not when single-family options surrounding the future savior (Morningside Village) exist at a similar price point.

.......

I do see a silver lining though. Your site is prime to become Charlotte's first true urban rental building. I imagine studio's and 1 bedrooms only, in a 3-story "urban walk-up". I still stand by my scaled down Seattle project as a design inspiration, but forget the street level retail (I've been really thinking about the commercial aspect, but that's would be a whole seperate long-winded post). You can get renters to occupy the ground floor long before a buyer, because you've eliminated the biggest draw-back, re-sale potential.

You need no coumminty amenities, that's what the neighborhood is for. You don't need to waste money on the riduculous such as granite countertops and stainless steel appliances. This building sells itself on design, location, and price.

Now I know right now "price" is the stumble-block, but look at your competion....their is none, except for the people renting out 1brs at The Rutzler , and they're not doing too poorly. The rest are 2br homes going for $900-$1,000/mth for 900-1100 sf in inferior locations. So, you're looking at $1/sf for a larger unit, that requires finding that pesky roomate, maintaining the yard, and you still can't stumble home from Thomas St. Tavern. I think you see the premium.

I know it's not your normal model, but looking at your land basis, and scribbling on the back of a napkin, I think you can get there, and add something to the neighborhood that is in the spirit of what made it successful, attractive to the urban pioneer.

[CLTNative]

Atl- Wow. I am definitely intrigued by this plan. The only big thing I would add to your plan would be a ton of parking for patrons.

I am a 25 year old owner in the Commonwealth area and I never expected to make a ton of money off of my condo. I grew up near here and loved the idea of buying my first piece of real estate here. I love the, friendly, rock-a-billy attitude of the venues near by as much as the cute houses and tree lined streets.

Long story short, I am happy to hear about new condo projects in the area. but I think rentals with tons of public parking could do wonders for the increasing crowd running around Thomas Ave. There is a major parking issue along that strip almost any day of the week. The beauty mall and their booting issue need some "instruction by example" on how to solidify their place in a neighborhood that continuously supports local entrepreneurs. Not to get onto a tangent, but that area needs parking. I also agree that the bulk of the money in the project should be spent on an amazing exterior. That alone would make this project stand out throughout the city. I am eager to see something that is outside of the box and simple in nature. Something with a basic, clean design, covered with some sort of art. I, personally, love 7th st Station and its interactivity. I would like to see something like that around here. It becomes a tourist attraction of sorts for the entire hood. Who doesn

[voyager12]

Can someone please tell me what's "green" about the Vyne? A visit to their website has large headlines about "Green", but when you read the links, there is no mention of what is environmentally friendly about it. And don't give me the line about energy star appliances and compact fluorescents. I live in a 1950s ranch with those. Does that mean I live in a green home? Sounds like Tuscan is misrepresenting their project.

It will be interesting to see how this project fares and whether it whithers on the vine ( okay maybe it was not THAT funny). It's become very trendy and popular for builders to describe every project as green friendly and in many cases it's all cachet and there is no foundation in reality when you get beyond the glossy brochure and web site. The frontier is being pushed down Central with this one and perhaps signaling a new gentrification beachhead with all the positives and negatives that goes along with such a transformation. This area cannot be called PlazaMidwood and while it's not that far from it, the walk from this location is not very pedestrian friendly and beckoning. One of the Vyne's major pluses is being close to Dim Sum on Central I love that place and am going in a couple hours for Mother's Day brunch

[Conformity]

Thanks UP.

I cannot reply to all the comments right now, but wanted to say thanks. I'll follow up.

[SpanishMoss]

I heard a rumor that Harris Teeter is looking into moving into the family dollar location. Any truth?

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

Can someone please tell me what's "green" about the Vyne? A visit to their website has large headlines about "Green", but when you read the links, there is no mention of what is environmentally friendly about it. And don't give me the line about energy star appliances and compact fluorescents. I live in a 1950s ranch with those. Does that mean I live in a green home? Sounds like Tuscan is misrepresenting their project.

I'm reserving judgment on their level of "green" until I see how many trees the builder cuts down - and how many they save - on that VERY wooded parcel of land.

[orulz]

Interesting article in the O today about Central Avenue.

Suburban codes squelch hopes for Central

The upshot is, the commercial areas of Central Avenue are zoned B1 and B2, which is a very suburban zoning classification, requiring large minimum setbacks and buffers between buildings. If Central is to turn into a more walkable area, the definitions of the B1 and B2 designations must either be changed, or the corridor must be rezoned with another designation.

[Sbishop66]

Can anybody comment about the Graduate opening at the corner of Central Avenue and the Plaza? This was mentioned in this week's Creative Loafing in the story about the Comedy Zone. Supposedly, the Charlotte Comedy Theater is moving to the Graduate from SK Net Cafe on June 1. Where is it going to be?

[cltgirl]

Yea, I saw that article about the Comedy Theatre too, but it is confusing the way they word it. At first it sounds like the Comedy Theatre is moving into the current Graduate location (downtown) and that the Graduate is coming to PM, like you suggest:

"The Charlotte Comedy Theater, an improvisational comedy group, is moving June 1 from SK Net Caf

[boochops]

I don't know about the comedy theater, but the Grad is definitely going into the old Joe's space on Central and Pecan.