Plaza-Midwood Projects (Central, Commonwealth, The Plaza)

[atlrvr]

Well yes, I admit there have been leasing issues.....many letters of intent never converted into leases as they expected. They also had a major office lease of ~60,000 sq. ft. that fell apart late in negotiations....I'm not sure why, but my guess is parking. Grubb has made parking pretty much unlimited for the time being to its tenants, with the understanding that parking lots will disappear as development occurs. They will be replaced by decks, but they won't be built for a while....the Whole Foods will include the first private deck.

My take on it is this. Office demand has slowed, and they can't get financing for large office buildings without a pre-leasing. The apartment tower no longer is financially feasible due to rising construction cost. I think they were looking at redesigning it as a 4-5 story project, but haven't heard much else. The Whole Foods WILL happen, and will include a significant condo component located above the grocer and parking deck. The theatre is dead based upon Regal's disinterest in the project and Ghazi's inclusion of a theatre at EpiCentre. Retail is only the result of getting other components completed as getting retail spaces alone isn't enough to win financing.

Right now.....their primary focus is on the Whole Foods/Condo building, which is why the BK parcel was such a thorn in their side. I think the philosophy is the WFs will make the whole area more appealing to office leasees and justify higher rents for aparments. Right now though, they are still sinking millions of dollars in on a regular basis, so I'm not worried yet.

[uptownliving]

Of course, but all of this is a trickle compared to their initial publicity and the vast amount of land they already have. They tore down Tonic prematurely if they are working at this pace, and have had plenty of other parcels from 3rd all the way to parts of Independence Park. The BK was only a small piece, why not build on all the other land? Too much going on with SouthPark it would appear.

From the very begining Grubb has been saying that Elizabeth is a 10 year project that will be built in phases.

I think that once the Whole Foods project starts going it will be the domino that makes everything else fall into place for this project.

[dubone]

I think Whole Foods will be part of it, the streetscape project that begins this fall will be another part of it. A big effect, though, will be when trains are approved connecting this street to downtown.

If Presby fell through, which may have been the 60ksf office leasing that atlrvr is referring to, then that just means it fell through from the perspective of being on Grubb's land. Presby seems to be building their own project at 5th and Hawthorne.

[Charlotte_native]

I think Whole Foods will be part of it, the streetscape project that begins this fall will be another part of it. A big effect, though, will be when trains are approved connecting this street to downtown.

If Presby fell through, which may have been the 60ksf office leasing that atlrvr is referring to, then that just means it fell through from the perspective of being on Grubb's land. Presby seems to be building their own project at 5th and Hawthorne.

I think it is just safe to say it isn't going as planned. When the sign boards went up a couple of years ago, when they began demolishing buildings, they had planned on working then. I think Presby pulling out was a lot of wind out of their sails. I just hope this gets moving. It is now one more dead spot with lots of drab areas and little activity. If not for the NoFO, Visulite, Andersons, Carpe Diem businesses and the stuff at the corner of Independence and Elizabeth, this area would be practically desolate.

It just seems to be that the projects that were started in SouthPark are far further along (well, obviously they are further along) and might be draining off energy and money from this. To me this area is terribly important for creating some activity, energy, and life to the areas just across from 277 and with all the hoopla about Whole Foods and the residential component, nothing has happened but opening a bar that is accessed throught the corridors of an office. Oh, and a couple restaurants. Everything else was there before Grubb.

[atlrvr]

I'm not sure who was going to take the 60k sq. ft. in the proposed building on the other side of the yellow house.....Presby does have a ~120k sq. ft. building in the works for 5th and Hawthorne as Dubone mentioned, but that has surprisingly quiet. A year and a half a go, Novant was in a big rush to get through due diligence.

[voyager12]

Liz Ave does seem to be in slow mode, similar to sections of Noda. I love that street though and it has great features already: an awesome view down to the skyline and the few restaurants and bars/clubs already there give it some of the much needed urban character Charlotte lacks. Watching the Grubb project inch along is frustrating because there was so much fanfare and overboard PR when this project was announced and the reality on the ground has been very different.

[fz dogmother]

Thanks to everyone who helped clear up my confusion about the Faison and Conformity Corp. sites. I heard, too, that Conformity Corp. had sold its site, but have no idea to whom. Meanwhile that lot is looking more and more scruffy, with weeds the size of small trees. To whom would one direct a request to do something about that, I wonder?

Also, dubone wrote:

As for infrastructure, the city is planning a streetcar line running right in front of these projects within the next 3-5 years. It is, in my view, the main purpose that Faison and Conformity are envisioning so many units on these sites. Also, there is enough connectivity in that area, so 300 units will not make that much of a difference to traffic as it might in the exurbs. That is, the infrastructure to support this infill development has been there for years, but finally now the area is becoming valuable enough to be developed in more units.

How certain IS the streetcar project? I searched the charmeck/CATS transportation site, but aside from a proposed system map, I could find nothing to indicate it's a done deal. I've heard that the line WILL run as far up as Presby, but after that? It also appeared to me that this project is far from its full funding, so I'm wondering how realistic it is to expect the streetcar will be up and running by 2011?

If I've missed something here, which is a distinct possibility, I apologize for my ignorance of where the streetcar project stands. I'm both a newbie and an outsider to the "scoop," but I am devoted to being a part of my community, as well as a devotee of an urban (more walking, less driving, more time for the dog, etc) lifestyle. Guess I'm concerned about how/when/whether these projects will coelesce, especially as the weeds continue to grow...

I'm glad to hear, tho, that Whole Foods is moving along. It's that type of enterprise, that IMHO is often the catalyst for other good things to follow.

[Charlotte_native]

How certain IS the streetcar project? I searched the charmeck/CATS transportation site, but aside from a proposed system map, I could find nothing to indicate it's a done deal. I've heard that the line WILL run as far up as Presby, but after that? It also appeared to me that this project is far from its full funding, so I'm wondering how realistic it is to expect the streetcar will be up and running by 2011?

If I've missed something here, which is a distinct possibility, I apologize for my ignorance of where the streetcar project stands. I'm both a newbie and an outsider to the "scoop," but I am devoted to being a part of my community, as well as a devotee of an urban (more walking, less driving, more time for the dog, etc) lifestyle. Guess I'm concerned about how/when/whether these projects will coelesce, especially as the weeds continue to grow...

The Streetcar system is still in the works. CATS has progressed with much of the planning, design, and routes, but is still trying to shore up funding and to identify (unless they have by now) the maintenance facility. Their initial plans, if this comes about, and it looks fairly strong that it will for the first run, call only for a line from J.C. Smith on Beatties Ford road on the west side of town, to Presby and Elizabeth Ave to the east. It would run straight down Trade Street through town. Additional spurs would be added, most likely to be first would be somehow connected to Central AVe -- i think via Hawthorne but not sure. One of the sites for the maintenance facility that has been discussed is in this area (actually on the other side of Central near Belmont) so that would speed up this leg if that were to come about.

The info I saw at one of their meetings indicated that the first runs could be in the works next year if funding worked out.

[dubone]

You can also search UP for info on the streetcar. Basically it is not fully funded yet, but with its route being the most utilized transit-corridor in the city (maybe the state), and with the whole streetcar project costing only $150m, I believe strongly that it will be built. The only question is whether it is built in 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, whatever. But since CATS engineers have rated it very well for likelihood of winning federal funds, it is almost certain that this will be pursued and meet success.

The city and CATS are so confident that the streetcar line will eventually be approved for full funding, that it is spending the money to lay the tracks on almost the entire length of Elizabeth Ave when it is torn up for the streetscape project this year.

To update on what C_N wrote, the phasing no longer true. CATS will pursue the entirety of the line from Eastland to Beatties Ford/85. It will go through Plaza-Midwood, up Clement to Hawthorne south of Hawthorne Middle. Then it would go from Hawthorne to Elizabeth Ave to Trade St to Beatties Ford.

[Charlotte_native]

To update on what C_N wrote, the phasing no longer true. CATS will pursue the entirety of the line from Eastland to Beatties Ford/85. It will go through Plaza-Midwood, up Clement to Hawthorne south of Hawthorne Middle. Then it would go from Hawthorne to Elizabeth Ave to Trade St to Beatties Ford.

GREAT! I'm glad to hear they have added that spur -- it makes the whole thing more complete, IMHO, with it connecting Central. Terminating at the Hospital didn't make much sense. I wonder if they did indentify the maintenance facility (and in that area) or if they just decided to go the full run. At any rate that is great news.

[uptownliving]

CATS is going to further study both vehicle maintenance sites during Preliminary Engineering. One site is over at Barnhardt Manufacturing in Plaza Midwood and the other is at the CMUD facility on Beatties Ford Rd.

[sfmartin]

CATS will pursue the entirety of the line from Eastland to Beatties Ford/85. It will go through Plaza-Midwood, up Clement to Hawthorne south of Hawthorne Middle. Then it would go from Hawthorne to Elizabeth Ave to Trade St to Beatties Ford.

How did they solve the issue of crossing the bridge over 74?

Wasn't it Conformity Corp who refised to negociate streetcar r/w paralleling 74 on the south side of their site?

I had also heard talk of pushing Commonwealth through to connect with Sunnyside - eliminating the Midas shop.

[uptownliving]

How did they solve the issue of crossing the bridge over 74?

Wasn't it Conformity Corp who refised to negociate streetcar r/w paralleling 74 on the south side of their site?

I had also heard talk of pushing Commonwealth through to connect with Sunnyside - eliminating the Midas shop.

They will cross 74 on the Hawthorne bridge and then continue on Hawthorne past Central Ave, under the railroad tracks and then hang a right at the Barnhardt manufacturing complex...and then another right onto Clement, so that it will come out to Central at the White Rabbit Bookstore.

This avoids the Conformity Corp property as well it avoids having to build an expensive bridge over the railroad tracks.

Edited August 31, 2006 by uptownliving

[dubone]

Here is more info on the railroad crossing for the streetcar, among other things:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...st&p=368865

Commonwealth will not be extended to Hawthorne.

[atlrvr]

The developers of the Morningside project completed the purchase of the Morningside Apartments and adjacent land last week.....looks like this is going forward on schedule. I think this is the one project and C are the two projects I'm most excited about.

[dubone]

That is great. This will be a major boon to the area, and be highly supportive of transit planned on Central. I'm excited about a lot of projects, but I'm excited about it too.

[j_design]

It looks like the purchase of Morningside Apartments is listed on Charlotte.com. I wonder if they plan on calling the project "Morningside Village" - thats whats listed..

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/business/15502088.htm

[uptownliving]

According to the CBJ the Morningside development has been bumped up to a $400M development from the original $275M. They also state that construction should start in 2Q2007 and will be phased over about 5 years to completion. That means that this will be completed about the sametime the planned Central Ave StreetCar comes online.

[atlrvr]

Just to add a view additional things from the article.....the components are being designed by 6 different architects, and the development consultants have been travelling to lots of other urban cities to get a sense of development styles.

I know I've expressed my like for this project, but I would also like to add, that I believe it will be one of the highest quality, in terms of urbanddesign, architecture, and materials, projects in the city.

[sfmartin]

Do you/ya'll know of any action proposed along Central, particularly at/around the Morningside Dr, Lyon Ct, Iris Dr intersections, generated by this development? I would imagine that the commercial properties there will be snatched up in short order.

[dubone]

With the increase in density, those commercial spots are certain to be recycled.

[atlrvr]

Someone bought one of the houses turned offices at Lyon and Central....but I believe that they are just adding an addition, nothing really urban.....other than that I don't know, but I agree that the area there is sure to explode.

[dubone]

I wish they build a bridge over Independence on Hanover or one of the other neighborhood streets that used to connect.

Independence is a valley through there, and Chantilly is quite cut of by the rairoad, Briar Creek and Independence. It would do well to have a small two-lane bridge connecting the neighborhoods.

It is quite a bit to have no connections for a full mile.

I'm one who thinks the urban freeways serve an important citywide need, but their impact must be mitigated with frequent cross bridges.

[atlrvr]

I think the city should begin thinking about selling the development right to all freeways within Charlotte Route 4......land hasn't gotten expensive enough yet to justify it to developers, but it will......actually, I guess this would be an NCDOT issue. Maybe the city should request it with the proceeds helping fund the NCDOT portion of the transit plan.

[dubone]

There aren't that many places where this is an option. Maybe over about 1/3 of Brookshire 277, 1/2 of Belk 277, Independence from Central to Briar Creek.

I would be VERY happy, though, if just these sections were sold, streets were connected across the freeways at those spots, and development were placed on top.

I know that is just the Boston coming out of you, but I don't think air rights over freeways will work in Charlotte for at least another decade. Firstly, cars and trucks put terrible things in the air, and that won't get too much better until hybrids, hydrogen, or ethanol (I think that pollutes less) are in widespread use. Secondly, land is no where near valuable enough to justify it. I still like how you think. A few more months in the people's republic and I can only imagine what I ideas you'll bring to us.