Richmond International Airport

[eandslee]

54 minutes ago, Niccckk said:

I have a deep feeling it has to do a huge part with our neighbor... Norfolk. Southwest definitely has more of a "base" there than in Richmond. It really does make 0 sense. They've even gotten rid of the old Airtrain route (TO MCO) which used to be daily, then Southwest took over and it was still a daily flight until like 2017.. then it was just a seasonal flight, then weekendly flight, then just a saturday flight, and now not a flight. They completely gave that route back to Spirit and Jetblue. I won't be surprised if you see Breeze try to pop in with the RIC - MCO route since that route is now daily out of Charleston..  I dunno, just need to figure out why Southwest isn't doing anything here.  

Like, one of the biggest underserved markets at RIC is Austin, which is a fairly big Southwest base... you'd think you'd see flights there? Or even, you have Southwest interrupt American with their Dallas flight and you have Southwest go straight to Love Field, their HQ... idk.

I think what Southwest wants to do in Richmond (if anything) has been the biggest mystery since they landed at RIC. With lots of fanfare, Southwest came to RIC with the thought that they would:

1) reduce airfare prices at RIC (aka the “Southwest Effect”)

2) open up new opportunities for many more destinations with their expansive network

Can’t confirm they had any affect on #1, but they definitely have been disappointing on #2.  No one here that I’ve spoken to can figure it out. There was some rumor about issues with the main Southwest rep at RIC several years ago, but not sure that’s a valid concern anymore.  Southwest did open up the RIC-MDW route, but then removed the RIC-DEN route.  Southwest’s relationship with RIC seems like an on-again/off-again rollercoaster ride that seems to barely be hanging on. I wish we knew what Southwest’s real intentions are here. Just tell us - do you want it to work at RIC or not?!  If so, prove it!  There’s a lot of opportunities being lost at RIC right now and it’s just frustrating. 

Edited September 1, 2022 by eandslee

[Flood Zone]

17 hours ago, eandslee said:

Thanks for posting this chart!  I was looking at the cities that beat us out like Hartford, Milwaukee, Jacksonville, Fort Myers, Raleigh/Durham, even Salt Lake City...RIC should be up there with those guys given the size of our city.  I understand that there are other factors at play that makes us smaller, but geez...Charleston, SC is even seeing more passengers!  We need some factors that play into RIC's growth, more air service, and just more folks using RIC over the other airports that are within a 3-4 hour drive.  How can that drive be much better than boarding a flight in Richmond?  I know...cost, flight options, etc.  These need to change.  Hate that the Richmond Metro area bleeds potential passengers to other airports!  This has very much to do with the economy in Richmond.  We need the big corporations...we need the Apples, the Amazons, the Googles...we've got Lego...and CoStar.  Don't get me wrong, Lego is a huge win; CoStar probably more so, but we need more and bigger to get the airport service that this place deserves.  We have the basis for something huge...we just haven't arrived yet (we're so close I can feel it)!

I'm not going to bother distinguishing each of these markets, but I will note that Fort Myers is the spring training home of the Red Sox. I'd love to see a month-by-month chart for that airport; March must stick out like a skyscraper! :-)

Not that I really think RIC has underperformed too badly -- given the size of our market, our proximity to other markets with multiple airports, and let's just say a multi-generational reputation that this airport is kind of small potatoes -- but I wonder if its location within the metropolitan area hurts its growth. The burgeoning population areas are in the western reaches; I wonder if RIC would be more attractive if it were a 10-minute drive for someone in Short Pump. That might be a small factor, at most, and of course not adjustable, but it's something I've thought about for awhile.

[eandslee]

2 hours ago, Flood Zone said:Not that I really think RIC has underperformed too badly -- given the size of our market, our proximity to other markets with multiple airports, and let's just say a multi-generational reputation that this airport is kind of small potatoes -- but I wonder if its location within the metropolitan area hurts its growth. The burgeoning population areas are in the western reaches; I wonder if RIC would be more attractive if it were a 10-minute drive for someone in Short Pump. That might be a small factor, at most, and of course not adjustable, but it's something I've thought about for awhile.

I’ve also given RIC’s location in the metro some thought, but if the airport were an easy move, I don’t think it would improve passenger traffic that much (if at all) if it were placed in the west end. At least where it is currently located, it is able to easily tap into, not only the Richmond Metro market, but also it’s an easy drive (and getting easier with the I-64 widening project) for folks to drive to RIC from the eastern part of the state (which is quite populated), while also very accessible from folks from all over central Virginia. Also, it’s not far for folks living all the way up in Fredericksburg and lower NOVA areas (i.e. Stafford). The only thing I think would be nicer would be to get rid of the railroad that runs on the southern boundary of the airport, which restricts the ability for the airport to expand south (i.e. extend RWY 2-20 and/or build a longer parallel runway with a similar orientation).

[Icetera]

56 minutes ago, eandslee said:

The only thing I think would be nicer would be to get rid of the railroad that runs on the southern boundary of the airport, which restricts the ability for the airport to expand south (i.e. extend RWY 2-20 and/or build a longer parallel runway with a similar orientation).

There are plenty of examples of runways overlapping entire expressways, so while certainly a larger expense, I imagine the small road and track would not be insurmountable to cross over.

[I miss RVA]

I don't ever see that rail line ever being dispensed with - isn't it Norfolk Southern's primary freight line between Hampton Roads and Richmond? Doesn't the Amtrak run from Newport News to MSS use that line as well?

[Icetera]

14 minutes ago, I miss RVA said:

I don't ever see that rail line ever being dispensed with - isn't it Norfolk Southern's primary freight line between Hampton Roads and Richmond? Doesn't the Amtrak run from Newport News to MSS use that line as well?

Close, it is the main CSX/AMTRAK line from Fulton Yard to NN.  NS runs North of the airport to West Point. 

[I miss RVA]

13 minutes ago, Icetera said:

Close, it is the main CSX/AMTRAK line from Fulton Yard to NN.  NS runs North of the airport to West Point. 

Ahhhh - okay - gotcha!! Good to know. Thank you for the clarification on that one! 

[Niccckk]

BREEZE AIRWAYS ROUTE UPDATE

 

Breeze Airways has indefinitely cancelled the Richmond to Palm Beach route. This route was supposed to resume in October, but is no longer planned to.

To be honest this doesn't severely effect RIC since we already have jetBlue and Spirit flying to the relatively close-by Fort Lauderdale Airport, but is still disappointing.

[blopp1234]

Breeze has further cut their schedule, not just from RIC but from almost all airports they operate from. RIC lost all flights to Providence and West Palm, taking Breeze down to 5 year round routes and 1 seasonal route out of RIC. However we fared much better than many other cities.

Breeze’s prescience at ORF has shrunk to 7 year round routes, with 5 seasonal routes including big destinations such as New Orleans, Charleston and Pittsburgh.

Providence, a focus city, has been cut to 4 total routes for the near future and New Orleans has shrunk to 8 year round routes and 2 seasonal routes.

Seems as though Breeze expanded way to quickly and is looking to cut out routes that have lower ridership during the winter season, where ridership is usually lower among all routes. 
 

I don’t think we should be very discouraged by the Providence route as it never seemed like a plausible route to begin with, however the PBI route hurts alittle. Seems like it could come back as seasonal once Breeze better figures out how to allocate resources as it had decent demand and had been upped from 1x per week to 2x per week recently.

I would look for Breeze to pounce on longer distance markets that are better suited to the a220 and have higher ridership (Think Los Angeles or Phoenix) or are popular tourist destinations (Austin or Fort Myers) in the future as opposed to routes to Hartford and Providence, which have to compete with driving and a plethora of Amtrak trains that may take longer but allow for increased flexibility.

[I miss RVA]

1 hour ago, blopp1234 said:

Breeze has further cut their schedule, not just from RIC but from almost all airports they operate from. RIC lost all flights to Providence and West Palm, taking Breeze down to 5 year round routes and 1 seasonal route out of RIC. However we fared much better than many other cities.

Breeze’s prescience at ORF has shrunk to 7 year round routes, with 5 seasonal routes including big destinations such as New Orleans, Charleston and Pittsburgh.

Providence, a focus city, has been cut to 4 total routes for the near future and New Orleans has shrunk to 8 year round routes and 2 seasonal routes.

Seems as though Breeze expanded way to quickly and is looking to cut out routes that have lower ridership during the winter season, where ridership is usually lower among all routes. 
 

I don’t think we should be very discouraged by the Providence route as it never seemed like a plausible route to begin with, however the PBI route hurts alittle. Seems like it could come back as seasonal once Breeze better figures out how to allocate resources as it had decent demand and had been upped from 1x per week to 2x per week recently.

I would look for Breeze to pounce on longer distance markets that are better suited to the a220 and have higher ridership (Think Los Angeles or Phoenix) or are popular tourist destinations (Austin or Fort Myers) in the future as opposed to routes to Hartford and Providence, which have to compete with driving and a plethora of Amtrak trains that may take longer but allow for increased flexibility.

I'm still trying to get my head around Breeze and ORF (they have focus-city status, do they not?) - particularly when we've seen via the latest statistics that, YTD through July, RIC is OUTPERFORMING ORF to the tune of just north of 200,000 passengers (RIC at just over 2.1 M YTD, ORF at  about1.9 M YTD) - so with RIC OUTPACING ORF, exactly WHY did Breeze select ORF over RIC? There is no way -- at least not in my mind -- why there should be flights to Pittsburgh AND New Orleans out of ORF but not out of RIC. Not when RIC is performing better, and not by a tiny margin (if it was 50K passengers, that would be one thing... but 200K is a significant difference).

Just my two well-worn, rusty-copper pennies worth on the topic.

[Niccckk]

9 hours ago, I miss RVA said:

I'm still trying to get my head around Breeze and ORF (they have focus-city status, do they not?) - particularly when we've seen via the latest statistics that, YTD through July, RIC is OUTPERFORMING ORF to the tune of just north of 200,000 passengers (RIC at just over 2.1 M YTD, ORF at  about1.9 M YTD) - so with RIC OUTPACING ORF, exactly WHY did Breeze select ORF over RIC? There is no way -- at least not in my mind -- why there should be flights to Pittsburgh AND New Orleans out of ORF but not out of RIC. Not when RIC is performing better, and not by a tiny margin (if it was 50K passengers, that would be one thing... but 200K is a significant difference).

Just my two well-worn, rusty-copper pennies worth on the topic.

Yeah my head is also still kind of baffled with Breeze on their "focus-city" at Norfolk. Like they had the perfect opportunity to hop in right when the Concourse A expansion completed,  and they did, but not in the way they did at Norfolk. The stars had aligned for Breeze to have a base here. There must've been something preventing them from doing so at RIC? That's what I don't know.

[wrldcoupe4]

I wish them the best in both cities but I assume they could swap a focus city if they wanted to, right?

[blopp1234]

My guess is access to Virginia Beach was the sole reason that ORF was chosen. Due to high levels of leisure traffic, which is what Breeze targets, ORF seemed like a great spot to have a bunch of lower frequency routes to the Midwest.

RIC actually has better PDEW to NOLA, which is why we still have the route at 4x per week year round, however our numbers to Pittsburgh are abysmally low as it’s a very short flight so they lose lots of passengers to driving. You can see this with other nearby cities, such as Charlotte and Philadelphia, which have direct flights but low PDEWs, however the difference is that those cities are hubs for American so they can warrant a direct flight due to the vast amount of connections they offer. Pittsburgh no longer is a hub so unless there were high numbers of passengers traveling my between the 2 cities, a route wouldn’t be picked up. 

Breeze’s strategy for choosing focus cities doesn’t matter a whole lot for what cities get new service as Breeze doesn’t allow passengers to book connecting flights so being a focus city isn’t as big of a deal, outside of increasing jobs at the airport. This is why Providence, which is a focus city, only has 4 routes year round and Richmond has 5, yet isn’t a focus city.

Hate to be a downer but look for Breeze to keep scaling back lower demand routes across their network until mid winter.

[Shakman]

Operation cost could be a factor.  Airports charge airlines fees.  Does ORF have lower airline fees than RIC?

[Icetera]

12 hours ago, I miss RVA said:

I'm still trying to get my head around Breeze and ORF (they have focus-city status, do they not?) - particularly when we've seen via the latest statistics that, YTD through July, RIC is OUTPERFORMING ORF to the tune of just north of 200,000 passengers (RIC at just over 2.1 M YTD, ORF at  about1.9 M YTD) - so with RIC OUTPACING ORF, exactly WHY did Breeze select ORF over RIC? There is no way -- at least not in my mind -- why there should be flights to Pittsburgh AND New Orleans out of ORF but not out of RIC. Not when RIC is performing better, and not by a tiny margin (if it was 50K passengers, that would be one thing... but 200K is a significant difference).

Just my two well-worn, rusty-copper pennies worth on the topic.

While ORF may underperform compared to RIC, the Hampton Roads metro is larger and served by two airports that combined outperform RIC (barely), so it makes sense in my mind.

[I miss RVA]

3 hours ago, Icetera said:

While ORF may underperform compared to RIC, the Hampton Roads metro is larger and served by two airports that combined outperform RIC (barely), so it makes sense in my mind.

On the one hand, all very well and true. However - RIC DOES draw from the Hampton Roads market (the Penninsula side) - maybe not a whole lot, but it does siphon off some enplanements (no doubt hurts PHF much more than it does ORF) - and yes, ORF does siphon off some RIC traffic as well.

Now, we're talking well down the road here, but aren't projections for the RVA metro to slightly outpace Hampton Roads metro in terms of overall growth in the coming decades? I seem to recall seeing where Richmond will pass Norfolk in population in the next couple of decades (at the current pace of growth - and I think a lot of population figures from the 2020 census are WAYYYYYYY low across the board) - I believe Norfolk's population is forecast to shrink, and Virginia Beach's, while it will continue to grow, is forecast to slow significantly (in other words, not boom the way it has for the past 30 years). We'll probably all be dead and buried by the time the RVA metro catches Hampton Roads, IF and when that were to ever happen - but from what I recall, there would be some incremental catchup in the coming decades.

Here again is where my "beat-a-dead-horse" argument kicks in - we're just not growing fast enough, both city and metro. I'm glad as I can be that the CEO of Greater Richmond Partnership has publicly STATED this and stated that she sees it as a problem that needs to be corrected. I know some folks don't like hearing this, but market size matters.

[mintscraft56]

11 hours ago, Niccckk said:

Yeah my head is also still kind of baffled with Breeze on their "focus-city" at Norfolk. Like they had the perfect opportunity to hop in right when the Concourse A expansion completed,  and they did, but not in the way they did at Norfolk. The stars had aligned for Breeze to have a base here. There must've been something preventing them from doing so at RIC? That's what I don't know.

I mean, as a Norfolk Resident im surprized myself that they choose us.....I just wish they would be doing a little more since we are a focus city of theirs. 

4 hours ago, I miss RVA said:

On the one hand, all very well and true. However - RIC DOES draw from the Hampton Roads market (the Penninsula side) - maybe not a whole lot, but it does siphon off some enplanements (no doubt hurts PHF much more than it does ORF) - and yes, ORF does siphon off some RIC traffic as well.

Now, we're talking well down the road here, but aren't projections for the RVA metro to slightly outpace Hampton Roads metro in terms of overall growth in the coming decades? I seem to recall seeing where Richmond will pass Norfolk in population in the next couple of decades (at the current pace of growth - and I think a lot of population figures from the 2020 census are WAYYYYYYY low across the board) - I believe Norfolk's population is forecast to shrink, and Virginia Beach's, while it will continue to grow, is forecast to slow significantly (in other words, not boom the way it has for the past 30 years). We'll probably all be dead and buried by the time the RVA metro catches Hampton Roads, IF and when that were to ever happen - but from what I recall, there would be some incremental catchup in the coming decades.

Here again is where my "beat-a-dead-horse" argument kicks in - we're just not growing fast enough, both city and metro. I'm glad as I can be that the CEO of Greater Richmond Partnership has publicly STATED this and stated that she sees it as a problem that needs to be corrected. I know some folks don't like hearing this, but market size matters.

I mean I dont think we will all be too long gone to see it happen. Plus, anything can happen with our populations. After all, the projections are only educated guesses. Norfolk or Richmond could by some freak luck become some popular city for a year and see massive increase of growth, like Charlotte did or, like what Chesapeake is seeing. Anything is on the table for both our cities. It just takes some positivity to be optomistic for it.

[wrldcoupe4]

Would love to see both regions pick up the pace. 

[I miss RVA]

1 hour ago, mintscraft56 said:

I mean, as a Norfolk Resident im surprized myself that they choose us.....I just wish they would be doing a little more since we are a focus city of theirs. 

I mean I dont think we will all be too long gone to see it happen. Plus, anything can happen with our populations. After all, the projections are only educated guesses. Norfolk or Richmond could by some freak luck become some popular city for a year and see massive increase of growth, like Charlotte did or, like what Chesapeake is seeing. Anything is on the table for both our cities. It just takes some positivity to be optimistic for it.

I hear you on that - however, I must counter: what's happened in cities like Charlotte and Austin, Texas, as fast meteoric as the growth has been been, has been taking place over the past 35-40 years and there are a wide variety of factors that prevent THAT kind of explosive growth in Richmond or Norfolk, both of which are land-locked and, by law, have absolutely ZERO recourse for expansion via annexation. Virginia Beach has come the closest, given that she has plenty of room into which to expand and fill - and even then, she hasn't grown nearly as fast as Charlotte and Raleigh are growing, much less Austin which has gotten as big as she has even faster (by about 10 years faster).

In metro Richmond, barring some kind of a publicly agreed-upon (likely via referendum), legislatively approved and court-confirmed merger(and yes, by law it will require ALL of those levels of agreement/confirmation) between the city and either Henrico (a very remote possibility, but extremely EXTREMELY unlikely) or Chesterfield (not even a snowball's chance in hell that will EVER happen in our lifetimes), Richmond's going to have to do it the old-fashioned way. And unless/until the city is 1.) able to land some HEAVY-HITTERS in terms of job creation and 2.) willing to REALLY throw off the shackles to some EPIC-scale development FAR above and beyond what she's doing now (and, frankly, she's doing a pretty decent job of it now even though despite all of the recent unprecedented citywide development there still seems to be only incremental return in terms of actual population growth, which I simply don't understand) that's going to mean a continuation of this frustrating snails pace of incremental growth. Having a hamstrung airport doesn't help - and I say hamstrung in the fact that - yeah it's growing, but it's still only at the level of a nice, slow-but-steady growth REGIONAL airport. It's not growing explosively - hitting even that national-level or international-level airport. I'm afraid as far as the Commonwealth is concerned, the ONLY airports that will be at that high level (major national/international-level airport) are Dulles and National. No other airport across the Commonwealth will be able to approach those levels of service in our lifetimes. Certainly not mine.

I think we missed our chance on ALL of this kind of stuff 40 to 50 years ago - and we'll just have to content ourselves with simply getting whatever we can get and being happy with it. Ground chuck will never be filet mignon -- but they're both beef. I guess that's something.

Edited September 7, 2022 by I miss RVA

[wrldcoupe4]

Here are a few things that stifled Richmond more than Richmonders, even though we all have been a self loathing bunch for too long (including /especially all you expats):

Virginia’s concept of independent cities 

Virginia’s moratorium on annexation

virginia’s limitation on interstate banks in the 20th century

systemic racism and segregation that creative disproportionate levels of extreme poverty 

Location on the 95 corridor for many of the illicit drug pandemics in the 80s and 90S

the frustrating part is that we can change almost all of these if the willpower is there.
 

long term, we won’t be as susceptible to sea level rise as Hampton roads. How detrimental will that be long term? 

Edited September 8, 2022 by wrldcoupe4

[I miss RVA]

2 hours ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

Here are a few things that stifled Richmond more than Richmonders, even though we all have been a self loathing bunch for too long (including /especially all you expats):

Virginia’s concept of independent cities 

Virginia’s moratorium on annexation

virginia’s limitation on interstate banks in the 20th century

systemic racism and segregation that creative disproportionate levels of extreme poverty 

Location on the 95 corridor for many of the illicit drug pandemics in the 80s and 90S

the frustrating part is that we can change almost all of these if the willpower is there.
 

long term, we won’t be as susceptible to sea level rise and Hampton roads. How detrimental will that be long term? 

PERFECTLY stated, Coupe! You just outlined pretty much all of the items that comprise the "variety of factors" I'd mentioned the previous post (plus one or two I hadn't thought about). I honestly just didn't feel like going through them - and I'm grateful that you did. Thank you! I'll just add a couple of thoughts to your absolutely spot-on points:

1.)The independent cities designation and the moratorium on annexation are structural AND infra-structural-level killers for Richmond's growth that came into existence roughly 100 years apart (independent city status in 1871, the annexation moratorium in the 1970s). They are the bane to this city's future growth to this very day. This has done nothing but all but eliminate ANY chance for the kind of legit regionalism that has boosted the growth of some of today's fastest growing cities that either have merged with their surrounding county or are free to annex their surrounding county. THIS ALONE prevents Richmond from doing what major North Carolina cities or Nashville or Austin have been and are doing in terms of regional management of population growth with the cities being the primary beneficiaries.

2.) The limitation on interstate banking was absolutely an economic death knell for Virginia banks and financial systems because our next door neighbor to the south has no such limitations and -- unshackled -- was able to gobble up financial institutions faster than PacMan and Mrs PacMan combined and consolidate exorbitant amounts of banking power, primarily in one specific city, which shall remain nameless. This has torpedoed what used to be referred to as the "Wall Street of the South" (Richmond's Financial District). Wanna know who is old school Richmond? Someone (like me!!) who actually remembers when RVA actually WAS considered by many to be the financial capital of the South.

3.) Generations of systemic racism/segregation/Jim Crow absolutely created disproportionate levels of extreme poverty that was concentrated in the city, and even then, in pockets in the city. Of course, this in turn, led to such unfathomable moves by the city as embracing the "urban renewal" movement that led DIRECTLY to the complete, total and utter destruction and full-on elimination of what was once Fulton Bottom. (Don't get me started on this one - I'm old enough to remember Fulton in the late '60s - BEFORE it was bulldozed into oblivion...)

4.) I would add to your third point: the cultural and political blowback after the DOJ and SCOTUS held the city's feet to the fire and FORCED the city government (and secondarily, the Commonwealth) toward a new paradigm of Richmond political structure and governance led to an unbelievable amount of rancor, vitriol, infighting, lack of cooperation, political back-stabbing, etc., and it held wide open the door for corruption at City Hall -- all of which lasted, unfortunately, for a generation at least. The city's economic progress ground to a full-on halt as the leaders were too busy fighting over every single possible thing politically and culturally (both big AND small) to notice that residents were leaving the city in droves and taking businesses with them. I still question whether the powers that be on the City Council and in the upper echelons of city leadership have yet to fully recover from decades-long mismanagement and uncooperative, totally non-unified governance.

5.) The drug situation in the '80s and '90s here was horrific. How disheartening was it to see the name "Richmond" at the top of the list (vying with New Orleans and Detroit) of "murder capital of the U.S."  In retrospect, it is quite remarkable that some of Richmond's worst areas (outside of the public housing projects which were brutal hotspots within hotspots) have today become some of the city's faster-growth areas that, in some cases, have just about completely turned around (Manchester being the one that comes to mind most readily).

6.) Hard to say down the road how much climate change will impact Central Virginia from the standpoint of sea level rise. I've seen projections (mind you, these were projecting out likely beyond all of our lifetimes - as in closer to 2100) that show the 'new' Atlantic seaboard moving as far west as the fall line. If this were to come to pass, it  would cut into the RVA metro significantly from the east. Oh where oh where to put a new airport!

And I fully agree with you - what is particularly frustrating is that we CAN change almost all of these things if the willpower to do so is there. So far, through nearly 60 years (as of next month) of living on this planet, I have yet to see that willpower so much as raise its head, much less stand up and be counted.

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by I miss RVA

[mintscraft56]

12 hours ago, I miss RVA said:

I hear you on that - however, I must counter: what's happened in cities like Charlotte and Austin, Texas, as fast meteoric as the growth has been been, has been taking place over the past 35-40 years and there are a wide variety of factors that prevent THAT kind of explosive growth in Richmond or Norfolk, both of which are land-locked and, by law, have absolutely ZERO recourse for expansion via annexation. Virginia Beach has come the closest, given that she has plenty of room into which to expand and fill - and even then, she hasn't grown nearly as fast as Charlotte and Raleigh are growing, much less Austin which has gotten as big as she has even faster (by about 10 years faster).

In metro Richmond, barring some kind of a publicly agreed-upon (likely via referendum), legislatively approved and court-confirmed merger(and yes, by law it will require ALL of those levels of agreement/confirmation) between the city and either Henrico (a very remote possibility, but extremely EXTREMELY unlikely) or Chesterfield (not even a snowball's chance in hell that will EVER happen in our lifetimes), Richmond's going to have to do it the old-fashioned way. And unless/until the city is 1.) able to land some HEAVY-HITTERS in terms of job creation and 2.) willing to REALLY throw off the shackles to some EPIC-scale development FAR above and beyond what she's doing now (and, frankly, she's doing a pretty decent job of it now even though despite all of the recent unprecedented citywide development there still seems to be only incremental return in terms of actual population growth, which I simply don't understand) that's going to mean a continuation of this frustrating snails pace of incremental growth. Having a hamstrung airport doesn't help - and I say hamstrung in the fact that - yeah it's growing, but it's still only at the level of a nice, slow-but-steady growth REGIONAL airport. It's not growing explosively - hitting even that national-level or international-level airport. I'm afraid as far as the Commonwealth is concerned, the ONLY airports that will be at that high level (major national/international-level airport) are Dulles and National. No other airport across the Commonwealth will be able to approach those levels of service in our lifetimes. Certainly not mine.

I think we missed our chance on ALL of this kind of stuff 40 to 50 years ago - and we'll just have to content ourselves with simply getting whatever we can get and being happy with it. Ground chuck will never be filet mignon -- but they're both beef. I guess that's something.

Well, yes your right on almost all of that, however Norfolk is not really landlocked, I mean we have the biggest Naval base in the world for a reason. Also, I guess its just a "time will tell" situation. Maybe, hopefully somthing can change and allow both cities to grow together.  I guess I will just have to see what happens in my life time then too, im still in my late teens, so I still have much to learn and see before I can really argue against any of it, especially since it seems everything you have said is true. 

Edited September 8, 2022 by mintscraft56

[I miss RVA]

3 hours ago, mintscraft56 said:

Well, yes your right on almost all of that, however Norfolk is not really landlocked, I mean we have the biggest Naval base in the world for a reason. Also, I guess its just a "time will tell" situation. Maybe, hopefully somthing can change and allow both cities to grow together.  I guess I will just have to see what happens in my life time then too, im still in my late teens, so I still have much to learn and see before I can really argue against any of it, especially since it seems everything you have said is true. 

My young friend - Norfolk actually is landlocked - bordered by the Chesapeake Bay to the north, the river to the south and west and Virginia Beach to the east. She really has nowhere to expand. Check out the graphic (below).

Wow - late teens? It's SO cool that you're taking an interest in stuff like this at a young age. I did the very same thing - was very much into everything regarding urban planning, the city (in my case, Richmond) from even before I was a teenager (long story as to how and why that happened) - and as you've probably seen from some of my rants, I'm turning 60 next month (ugh!). You are 100% spot on in saying that time will tell - and that a lot of things can change.

All of that said - welcome aboard to the forums - I know you've posted before so you're hardly a newbie, but knowing that you're so young, I'm really glad you're here with us and contributing. 

Edited September 8, 2022 by I miss RVA

[flaneur]

@mintscraft56I think the post refers to Norfolk being unable to expand its geographic footprint via annexation as land-locked, not that it is literally land-locked in the way that Roanoke or other inland cities are. This is a legacy of the 1970s annexation moratorium decision, rooted in the legacy of racism too. All complex, but at least we're making progress, finally. 

[I miss RVA]

31 minutes ago, flaneur said:

@mintscraft56I think the post refers to Norfolk being unable to expand its geographic footprint via annexation as land-locked, not that it is literally land-locked in the way that Roanoke or other inland cities are. This is a legacy of the 1970s annexation moratorium decision, rooted in the legacy of racism too. All complex, but at least we're making progress, finally. 

Well said. You put it far more eloquently, and nailed. it. 

One other point: annexation was off the table for Norfolk even prior to the 1970s moratorium when the one jurisdiction with whom it shares a land boundary - Virginia Beach - came into existence as an independent city in 1962 when it fully merged with Princess Anne County. Prior to that time, Virginia Beach literally was just that - a beach outpost on the coast in the northeastern corner of Princess Anne Country. Once they merged, despite the largely (at the time) rural character of the city, Virginia Beach was no longer subject to annexation as an independent city.