Norfolk History

[skylinefan]

I remember taking friends down to Norfolk from the DC area in the 80's for Harborfest and one of them made a little joke, he said Norfolk's tourist campaign could be "Norfolk come see our vast parking lots". Thank goodness those days are over and there is much more to do Downtown then Waterside and Chrystler Museum of Art.

Edited May 22, 2007 by skylinefan

[skylinefan]

A part of Norfolk History passed away this week Frank Guida. For those of you too young to remember Frankie's Got It record store on Granby St. it was the place to go to get the latest in soul, rock and roll, and everything else. I recall buying my first record a 45 rpm of the Monkee's hit "Take the Last Train to Clarksville" in 1968 or '69 when I was 6 or 7 years old.

Here is the story from the Pilot:

http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?...&ran=231717

[vdogg]

Norfolk downtown named endangered site

Profit-driven development threatens precious old buildings in downtown Norfolk and at Hampton's Fort Monroe, according to a statewide historic preservation group.

The Downtown Norfolk Historic District and Fort Monroe in Hampton were named Thursday to a list of 11 Most Endangered Historic Sites in Virginia. The Association for the Preservation of Virginia Antiquities/Preservation Virginia compiles the list each year.

[Glassoul]

Norfolk downtown named endangered site

If it's architecturally significant then it efforts should made to preserve it. If you're trying to save something for the sake of it being "old", that is in my opinion, not justification enough

[vdogg]

If it's architecturally significant then it efforts should made to preserve it. If you're trying to save something for the sake of it being "old", that is in my opinion, not justification enough

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. I do think they have a pretty soliid argument with the Hilton project, more could've been done to save those buildings (particulary the Watt Rettew & Clay building). That said, when they start crying over the buildings lost on the Granby site, when they were not significant and were practically nothing more than utility closets, I have trouble taking the preservationists seriously.

[Sky06]

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. I do think they have a pretty soliid argument with the Hilton project, more could've been done to save those buildings (particulary the Watt Rettew & Clay building). That said, when they start crying over the buildings lost on the Granby site, when they were not significant and were practically nothing more than utility closets, I have trouble taking the preservationists seriously.

I'm a preservationist at heart, and I believe absolutely everything that can be done to preserve historic or historically significant buildings should always be done. I think the Ikon building falls into this cateogry.

However . . .

I'm totally confused as to why this issue is coming up now. Why didn't this come up in the 70's when the real loss of historic buildings in DT occurred? Most of the recent and future construction (105 W. Main, Trader, Harbor Heights, 301, Granby, Wachovia, Snyder) has or will occur on vacant lots or in the case of a few like Granby will take place on sites with no significant structures needing to be preserved (unless you call a small concrete box with no historic significance "important"). Yes, the Ikon building is an example, and yes, the city constantly needs to be reminded of its responsibility for preserving its history. But to call the entire downtown "endangered" seems to be puzzling at the least and a personal attack at the worst.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Sky06

[tombarnes]

I don't think it's a personal attack at all. It's merely a way to increase the general awareness of the sad truth that much of Norfolk's history has already been swept away. People need to be aware that the cumulative loss of buildings affects the area as a whole. Whether the buildings on the site of the Granby Tower were worth saving is not the point here. Other structures may indeed be worth saving. As each one is lost, ofr one reason or another, the viability of an "historic district" is lessened each time. There may well be adequate reasons for the demolition of a particular building, but the overall cost to the city needs to be taken into account.

[burt]

Freemason and Ghent are both historic treasures and appear to be pretty much intact. As long as they remain I cannot imagine the city's Historic Designation being removed.

By the way, can anyone tell me where Gosport is (or was)? It had connections to the battle between the Monitor and the Merrimack, I think.

Edited May 26, 2007 by burt

[Glassoul]

Freemason and Ghent are both historic treasures and appear to be pretty much intact. As long as they remain I cannot imagine the city's Historic Designation being removed.

By the way, can anyone tell me where Gosport is (or was)? It had connections to the battle between the Monitor and the Merrimack, I think.

Gosport was the name of the Norfolk Naval Shipyard prior the Navy's commandeering of it in the Civil War (a couple months after the battle between the Monitor and Virginia) in 1862 when the area surrendered to the Union. Despite the name, it is located on the west bank of the Elizabeth River in Portsmouth.

[4307]

picture taken from the french ship "dixmude" 1953

[Padman]

Love the old streamlined cars. That's a heavy cruiser in the foreground, but I can't identify her. Behind, you can see the larger (single) funnel cap of another cruiser, perhaps Des Moines class or similar.

[mikeas]

One other interesting note. You can go to their site and look at the construction progress timeline and superimpose that over this year since it's starting pretty much at the exact same time it was supposed to start last year.

Off topic...Everytime I see Bute Street and Granby on a map I wonder when someone is going to try to develop that little triangle lot again:

[Padman]

Off topic...Everytime I see Bute Street and Granby on a map I wonder when someone is going to try to develop that little triangle lot again:

Thanks for the picture of the old Flatiron building. Years ago, it was slated for condo conversion--didn't pan out as downtown was pretty dead in those days. Now there is a building that really should have been saved. Now I think that little lot will be where Granby Tower pooches will relieve themselves.

Edited July 3, 2007 by Padman

[vdogg]

Thanks for the picture of the old Flatiron building. Years ago, it was slated for condo conversion--didn't pan out as downtown was pretty dead in those days. Now there is a building that really should have been saved. Now I think that little lot will be where Granby Tower pooches will relieve themselves.

The guys at arcstudio could do wonders with that lot. They probably wouldn't be too keen on it since Cosmo was shot down though.

[urbanvb]

Too bad, that's a really neat building. The light fixtures remind me of the ones at the Harrison Opera House.

[brikkman]

Thanks for the picture of the old Flatiron building. Years ago, it was slated for condo conversion--didn't pan out as downtown was pretty dead in those days. Now there is a building that really should have been saved. Now I think that little lot will be where Granby Tower pooches will relieve themselves.

Someone should send them an email asking them to consider that lot; maybe they can make the "code" requirements on that lot. They can even get a bridge from the building to GT parking garage.

[Marco757]

Thanks for the picture of the old Flatiron building. Years ago, it was slated for condo conversion--didn't pan out as downtown was pretty dead in those days. Now there is a building that really should have been saved. Now I think that little lot will be where Granby Tower pooches will relieve themselves.

What buildings did Norfolk save? It seems they tore down everything. When you think of it there is not one historical building on the water front in downtown??...even in the Freemason district. Everything (mostly) on Main street came down as well(Commericial Place). I live on the corner of Duke & Tazewell in Freemason and my building is the only original building for blocks until you go closer to the YMCA

[Padman]

What buildings did Norfolk save? It seems they tore down everything. When you think of it there is not one historical building on the water front in downtown??...even in the Freemason district. Everything (mostly) on Main street came down as well(Commericial Place). I live on the corner of Duke & Tazewell in Freemason and my building is the only original building for blocks until you go closer to the YMCA

Not many, but the major ones that come to mind offhand are: Royster Bldg. (houses NRHA), the old City Hall (MacArthur Memorial), the old Norfolk Academy, several churches, the old customs house, old library, the old Seaboard Citizens bank building, the Law Building (across from Royster), some theatres, most of what is on Granby Street, most of what is on Monticello Ave., a few lesser office buildings, the Federal Courthouse building, some condo conversions, the old cold storage warehouse (now condos) and most of the Freemason neighborhood. It's important to remember that not much of downtown Norfolk post-WWII 1950s was in great shape, and not many players were willing to invest there. And Norfolk was not a large town until WWII, so there wasn't that much to preserve in the first place. While the bustle of downtown that you see in the really old photos looks lively, not many of the structures were first rate and even fewer could be converted to viable use in that age of spreading suburbs. Lack of money....that's the root of it.

Edited July 5, 2007 by Padman

[tombarnes]

I would counter that it was a lack of vision- not money- which doomed most of downtown Norfolk. Perhaps one should say that while there was certainly a vision for downtown Norfolk, it was the wrong vision. Countless buildings were swept into the trash heap of history in downtown, Ghent and other areas of Norfolk. Sadly, one can't go back and rewrite history, but the urban renewal fantasies of the 1960's and 70's did great harm to Norfolk. There was money aplenty to build the concrete extravaganza known as Scope. There was money for the drab federal building which replaced the Monticello Hotel. It wasn't a lack of money or vision- merely an outdated and discredited Modernist vision of the future which did the greatest damage to Norfolk's downtown. Could everything have been saved? Of course not.

[VAGATOR]

Sure some things could have been saved, but many people seem to forget how big a slum Downtown Norfolk was. It wasn't a Savannah or Charleston like some people try to make it out to be.

[skylinefan]

I would counter that it was a lack of vision- not money- which doomed most of downtown Norfolk. Perhaps one should say that while there was certainly a vision for downtown Norfolk, it was the wrong vision. Countless buildings were swept into the trash heap of history in downtown, Ghent and other areas of Norfolk. Sadly, one can't go back and rewrite history, but the urban renewal fantasies of the 1960's and 70's did great harm to Norfolk. There was money aplenty to build the concrete extravaganza known as Scope. There was money for the drab federal building which replaced the Monticello Hotel. It wasn't a lack of money or vision- merely an outdated and discredited Modernist vision of the future which did the greatest damage to Norfolk's downtown. Could everything have been saved? Of course not.

I tend to agree with you Tom, I seem to remember in the 1960s and 70's Norfolk used alot of Federal Money earmarked for urban renewal projects to build Scope and Chrystler Hall and other structures. I read an article recently about how NRHA and the City Coucil members use to go to Washington with empty suit cases and come back with suit cases full of money for urban renewal pipe dreams. Norfolk used this federal grant money very unwisely and in the process of leveling substandard houses also leveled many federalist era homes and ripped the heart out of Downtown and later Church St. I need to find a picture I saw once that showed Downtown when the Golden Triangle (Raddison) opened in 1964. The houses where Scope now sits were already leveled and there was a vast empty field between the Hotel and the waterfront. You almost wish you could go back in time and scream at Mayor Duckworth and others to stop the demolition of these old historic structures.

[Padman]

The lions share of the money for Scope came from the feds, and the awful Federal building was also financed by them. It's too bad that lack of vision did play a major role in this. A renovated Monticello Hotel should have been a better Federal Building than the one that they got. The two endangered buildings that we have to concentrate on today are the old Navy Y (Union Mission) and the Leaning Tower. If the Leaning Tower can be made structurally safe and sound, it's an instant icon in a premier location. Or is that too frivolous a notion for the community? The Union Mission has a classic exterior, but I hate to think how much work may be needed inside. It must be preserved, no question.

The next major structure on the endangered list (about 5-10 years from now) could be the Radisson, although it has some potential. Scope will be obsolete, but there are so many classic references in those flying buttresses and the coffered ceiling (like the Pantheon in Rome) that we need to find alternative uses for it. So with respect to major buildings from the 50s through the 70s, lack of vision (or maybe imagination) may be something to watch out also.

[tombarnes]

Padman, I completely agree that Scope and the Radisson/Golden Triangle ought to be preserved. They are both classic examples of their period. Speaking of which, what's up with the plans to demolish the Kirn Library? It's a hard building to love, but it too is emblematic of its peroid.

Edited July 5, 2007 by tombarnes

[Padman]

Padman, I completely agree that Scope and the Radisson/Golden Triangle ought to be preserved. They are both classic examples of their period. Speaking of which, what's up with the plans to demolish the Kirn Library? It's a hard building to love, but it too is emblematic of its peroid.

I don't know that Norfolk has enough money to build a new central library, but they have stated an intention to do so. I don't understand why the alternative of renovating and expanding, or of inclusion in a mixed use development at the same location isn't among options to consider. There's ample parking (usually) at the mall, and keeping a business and government library in the heart of the cbd sure makes sense to me. Just building a modest high rise for HRT in that location does nothing for me. Throw in a new library with the HRT offices and we may have something.

[skylinefan]

E. Main Street during the early 1960's on the eve of redevelopment. In the distance you can barely make out the Norfolk city jail when it was brand new.

Edited July 5, 2007 by skylinefan