Norfolk History

[varider]

I wasn't offended. I was just wondering how Richmond having a few more banks than Norfolk meant that Norfolk shouldn't try and lure some big banks in the future. DT Norfolk just needs more jobs. Whether that's in the banking or any other sector. DT Norfolk needs high paying jobs for young professionals which will bring more people to live in the city center and both the employees and residents willl frequent the DT restaurants which will create opportunity for more retail/restaurants.. thus creating a vibrant downtown.. Well that's how it should work in theory. Norfolk is trying. I still think in the coming years we will start to see the transformation to a more vibrant neighborhoood..

[urbanlife]

I wasn't offended. I was just wondering how Richmond having a few more banks than Norfolk meant that Norfolk shouldn't try and lure some big banks in the future. DT Norfolk just needs more jobs. Whether that's in the banking or any other sector. DT Norfolk needs high paying jobs for young professionals which will bring more people to live in the city center and both the employees and residents willl frequent the DT restaurants which will create opportunity for more retail/restaurants.. thus creating a vibrant downtown.. Well that's how it should work in theory. Norfolk is trying. I still think in the coming years we will start to see the transformation to a more vibrant neighborhoood..

Oh the number of banks in Richmond has little to no relation to Norfolk, I was just curious. But you bring up an interesting term that I would like to hear your definition of, "young professionals." Often times phrases and words get thrown around as taglines, but the meaning behind them often times seems to be missing. Obviously it is more complicated that just adding more jobs for "young professionals" to have a vibrant city because if there was a one size fits all solution to fixing a city, everyone would be doing it.

It would be interesting to see what the breakdown of office jobs to low end jobs in downtown, the number of people living within downtown and its inner neighborhoods and the economic value breakdown of those residents, compared to the number of commuters that travel into downtown for work.

From information like that, the understanding of having a mix of people that fall into middle to lower middle class having the ability to rent and own within downtown and its inner neighborhoods (a key factor on why St Paul Quadrant is so important to the city's future.) Also, along with this, a breakdown of what other cities have done to improve their quality of downtown, not just Charlotte but all over, even such cities like Pittsburgh, even though there has been no population improvements going on within that city, there has been a number of renovating and reuse of urban areas that have strengthened their core.

In Norfolk's case, the key for the city is going to be connection, it is important for each neighborhood to be connected to the next, bike paths to encourage alternative travel within the city, an increase of transit offers within the city, the restructuring of focus points within the city to help improve neighborhoods individually and connect them with the overall fabric of the city. Also there needs to be reasons to go downtown, as well as reasons to want to live downtown...making it easier to live within downtown is very much key more than it is providing more high paying jobs.

[Sky06]

I wasn't offended. I was just wondering how Richmond having a few more banks than Norfolk meant that Norfolk shouldn't try and lure some big banks in the future. DT Norfolk just needs more jobs. Whether that's in the banking or any other sector. DT Norfolk needs high paying jobs for young professionals which will bring more people to live in the city center and both the employees and residents willl frequent the DT restaurants which will create opportunity for more retail/restaurants.. thus creating a vibrant downtown.. Well that's how it should work in theory. Norfolk is trying. I still think in the coming years we will start to see the transformation to a more vibrant neighborhoood..

Not sure where you're getting your facts from. I'd say Norfolk has far more large banks than Richmond. Most of the major banks serving this region are based in NC, particularly Charlotte. But when it comes to large regional banks, HR has quite a few: Towne Bank, Bank of Hampton Roads, Gateway Bank, Old Point National Bank, Bank of the Commonwealth, Heritage Bank, Monarch Bank, and others.

[lil-bear]

[quote name='Sky06' date='04 February 2010 - 08:20 PM' timestamp=' remember it!

Edited February 6, 2010 by lil-bear

[lil-bear]

[quote name='Sky06' date='04 February 2010 - 08:20 PM' timestamp=' remember it!

Does anyone have a pic of the Norfolk Flatiron building? I can't remember it!

[mlsimons]

ame='lil-bear' date='06 February 2010 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1265482517' post='1105296']

Does anyone have a pic of the Norfolk Flatiron building? I can't remember it!

I've also been looking all over for that...

[urbanlife]

I've also been looking all over for that...

Now I ask you, who is the man?? It took me less that 15 minutes to find this.

Probably the best shot I have ever seen of this building.

Also, while extremely blurry, there are satellite images of downtown Norfolk from 1967-2007 on Google Earth...obviously newer images are much clearer than the older ones, but you can still make out alot of things that was and wasnt there back in the day.

[usermel]

Wow, how you found that picture is amazing to me buddy. WOW! great picture of something I never seen! L.G.N.M

[urbanlife]

Wow, how you found that picture is amazing to me buddy. WOW! great picture of something I never seen! L.G.N.M

Funny thing is, this picture is the first time I have ever seen this building. I knew it use to be there, and I have seen a shot that you could see the back of the building on Granby, but that is the broad side, so it just looked like any other building.

How great would it be to see a streetcar light rail running the full length of Granby again? From downtown to Ocean View.

Edited February 8, 2010 by urbanlife

[usermel]

Another great picture. You must research and research buddy! Good picture again! L.G.N.M

[urbanlife]

Another great picture. You must research and research buddy! Good picture again! L.G.N.M

Most of my Norfolk finds are thanks to the Norfolk Library system and their collection of photos online.

Norfolk Library

The original street grid of downtown Norfolk

Buildings that use to sit on Church, when there was such a street that ran through downtown.

Buildings that sat on Brewer St.

Intersection of City Hall and Bank.

Across the street from the previous picture on Bank at City Hall.

Looking south on Brewer, in downtown.

Edited February 8, 2010 by urbanlife

[urbanlife]

Part One.

Repaving Granby Street.

The front entrance to the Atlantic Hotel.

the Atlantic Hotel, burned in 1902, and was closed down in 1976.

The Monticello Hotel at the corner of Monticello and City Hall, built in 1898, burned in 1918, rebuilt with two floors added to the top, then closed and torn down in 1976 to make way for the wonderful Federal Building that has done so much for the livelihood of the downtown.

The Victoria Hotel, built in 1904 on E. Main, gutted by a fire in 1945, and torn down in the name of progress in 1954.

If only the country invested in rail instead of highways, the Norfolk Union Station built in 1912, demolished in 1963. It was barely 50 years old when it was decided to be obsolete...sound familiar about today's 50 year old buildings?

The interior of the Union Station.

The Maritime Tower, once Norfolk's tallest tower and a sign or progress after urban renewal had took hold of the city. Built in 1959, demolished on November 24, 1996. We lost the Norfolk Armory and the City Market to this building, only to have it removed less than 40 years later. The view is from the Library that is now no longer.

Soon to be home to the corner of the MacArthur Mall.

Clearly, someone had issues with driving, this is from 1930, pre-prohibition.

After prohibition, these people are waiting in line to legally get DDRRRUUUUNNNNKKKK!!!

The Berkeley neighborhood after the fire in 1922.

Edited February 8, 2010 by urbanlife

[urbanlife]

Part Two

Cars were much smaller in 1932.

Firestation on E. Main near Church St...guessing was lost to urban renewal in the mid 50s. This photo is from 1912.

Well if you are wondering what happened to all the buildings along the waterfront before Waterside, in 1932 they were basically lost to a fire.

Plume St in 1921, you can see the Arcade in the background, as well as streetcar tracks running down Plume, which would be great if those were still there and being used.

The new Granby St Bridge under construction in 1930.

The Berkeley Bridge and the Norfolk waterfront in 1922.

The new Berkeley Bridge in 1952, before the new City Hall complex was constructed in the background.

An artist rendering of the Market Square in 1883.

Pender's Department Grocery Store on Market in 1915, just imagine if this grocery store was still there. It would be one hell of a location for a grocery store and would of had a well populated neighborhood around it.

This definitely an idea of what part of Waterside Marketplace could be...seeing it is called a marketplace and all.

This would be my bar if this building was still here and I still lived in Virginia. Taken in 1915 on Commercial Place.

The City Market that we lost to the Maritime Building, photo was taken in 1934.

Again, another idea of what could be done with Waterfront Marketplace, this is the interior of the City Market.

Norfolk skyline in December 1986.

Edited February 8, 2010 by urbanlife

[urbanlife]

Part Three

The early years of Norfolk's banking industry, this building sat on the 700 block on Church. It started out as a bank for blacks, then merged with another bank to become the Metropolitan Bank and Trust, then moved into this building in 1922, and for some strange reason went under in 1933...I think there might of been something "great" going on at that time.

The Church Street bank...on Church St. This was taken in the 1920s.

Church St. looking at Nicholson St in 1965.

Church and Brambleton in 1949.

Another view of Church St. in 1937.

Before the Tides, there was the Norfolk Tars!! Formed in 1896, in 1934 they were reorganized as a farm team for the New York Yankees until 1955.

This lucky Tar, Ray White, hit a Yankee, Lou Gehrig, in the head with a baseball in 1934.

Granby and City Hall in 1913.

York Street, 1939, Norfolk's Little Theater.

All the photos from for this post came from the Sargeant Memorial Room.

collection of photos.

These would be the reason why I think Norfolk made the wrong choice in the long run when it came to what was in store for Norfolk's future. If the city would of ended up trying to save as much of this as they could and build a modern city around it, Norfolk could possibly have the nickname of being "Little Boston" with the collection of historical buildings they would have downtown now. But that is all speculation and most of these buildings only exist in photos, but it is the Norfolk that I wish was there today, knowing full well that would never happen because it is impossible to get back so much lost history like that, but I do hope that Norfolk has learned from these mistakes and moves forward with the redeveloping of its inner neighborhoods so that they may be able to stand the test of time in the city and create a new history for it long after we are gone.

[varider]

Great pictures. We all know Norfolk got a little to demolition-happpy but downtown is much better today and I love the path we are heading in. We have turned the corner of tearing down the old with the announcement by US Development and the use of the old building for then new library.Downtown just needs much more infilll, etc. The only thing I'm mad about is how Church St. was in downtown. That needs to be re-established. Come on SPQ!

[brikkman]

Great pictures. We all know Norfolk got a little to demolition-happpy but downtown is much better today and I love the path we are heading in. We have turned the corner of tearing down the old with the announcement by US Development and the use of the old building for then new library.Downtown just needs much more infilll, etc. The only thing I'm mad about is how Church St. was in downtown. That needs to be re-established. Come on SPQ!

When you say better, what do you mean? Seems like more of a city then than it is now. Sad thing is, a lot of that demolition probably came from things being blight or overtaken by shady characters. Instead of the city blitzing the problems, they probably figured tearing it down was a better option. A perfect example of why our neighborhoods are the way some of them are today.a city then does

[cpeakesqr]

I couldn't disagree more with varider, Norfolk is so much less of a city than it could have been. New does not equal better. New equals big, cookie-cutter, and ubiquitous "urban design". The "demolition-happy" phase is a tragedy in the truest sense, in that we can recognize how destructive and foolhardy it was and do nothing to reverse it. Replacing bricks and stone with foam and particle board...

This is all a little dramatic, but those pictures are powerful. I remember my folks talking about riding into Norfolk on the bus when it wasn't somehow shameful to ride a bus and Norfolk was the place to go. I guess I'm a bit nostalgic about something I never experienced.

[varider]

I couldn't disagree more with varider, Norfolk is so much less of a city than it could have been. New does not equal better. New equals big, cookie-cutter, and ubiquitous "urban design". The "demolition-happy" phase is a tragedy in the truest sense, in that we can recognize how destructive and foolhardy it was and do nothing to reverse it. Replacing bricks and stone with foam and particle board...

This is all a little dramatic, but those pictures are powerful. I remember my folks talking about riding into Norfolk on the bus when it wasn't somehow shameful to ride a bus and Norfolk was the place to go. I guess I'm a bit nostalgic about something I never experienced.

Norfolk in it's prime may have beeen "better" than the downtown of today.. but I'm saying that the current downtown that we see today is much better than the slum-ridden, crime infested, craphole that the city demolished.And wasn't every urban center "better" back in it's hayday? Downtown looks more active and vibrant in the photos becasue there was no Greenbrier Malll, there was no WalMart, there was no Town Center, etc. I think the connectivty with the outer neighborhoods via railways also had much to do with the success of the old downtown.But yes, I believe that we see a better downtown today than as seen just before urban renewal. I don't think Norfok had high-rise condo towers or office towers, or downtown baseball stadiums/hockey arena's, or millions of sq. feet of retail space, or F1000 companies, etc. DOWNTOWN IS "BETTER"!

[usermel]

First of all, GREAT PICTURES AGAIN URBANLIFE. Now, actually I think ALL of you are right about Norfolks downtown. The pictures get me emotional because I myself remember when downtown was important as well for shopping(not talking about the MacArthur Center type shopping) and the movies etc.! Wasnt like it was in those photos though, that was the late 1970's and early 1980's Im talking about. The photos get me emotional because I see first hand what Malls and urban flight and suburbs did to downtowns shopping and especially how so many small businesses lost customers and were shut down because of this. You all are right on both sides of this topic. Good came from urban renewal and some good may have come from revitalizing those buildings for historical purposes like Boston and Philly have done as well as Richmond.

Norfolk just literally took a broom and swept up and discarded some of its historical landmarks at the time it seemed like it was no problem and I dont fault them because then it was so bad due to no plumbing etc. I dont think when were in the moment we see how special things are and then Norfolk had no idea how much they rid of. On Variders points he's correct. Norfolk has room to grow because those buildings are gone. Varider and his generation only can judge by there time on earth and I find it encouraging he is positive about the potential of his home town. We ALL love Norfolk. Some of us are nostalgic(I am) thers arent. The one thing we can agree on is our love for Norfolkand what its meant to us. Our downtown has been battered and abused. Hopefully moving forward in to this new decade we can do more for Norfolk so the same choices arent made as they were in the past. This time lets be sure to hold on to some of our historic landmarks. Whats important is that this time we dont make the same bad decisions twice regarding downtown. Such wonderful pictures of place I WISH I could have seen in person.

I Love Norfolk,

Usermel

[cpeakesqr]

Norfolk in it's prime may have beeen "better" than the downtown of today.. but I'm saying that the current downtown that we see today is much better than the slum-ridden, crime infested, craphole that the city demolished.And wasn't every urban center "better" back in it's hayday? Downtown looks more active and vibrant in the photos becasue there was no Greenbrier Malll, there was no WalMart, there was no Town Center, etc. I think the connectivty with the outer neighborhoods via railways also had much to do with the success of the old downtown.But yes, I believe that we see a better downtown today than as seen just before urban renewal. I don't think Norfok had high-rise condo towers or office towers, or downtown baseball stadiums/hockey arena's, or millions of sq. feet of retail space, or F1000 companies, etc. DOWNTOWN IS "BETTER"!

Your argument presents a false choice between the DT Norfolk of today and the historic vibrancy of the past. What building in DT Norfolk couldn't be moved to preserve the old density? Architecturally, which "high-rise" was worth the destruction? I'm not suggesting every building should have been preserved. I agree that suburbanization was probably the main contributor to Norfolk's decline, but urban renewal is a lot easier when there is something to actually renew. Looking at all those razed 2 and 3-storied buildings, we can only imagine how they could have been utilized as residences or retail-space, preferably both. Telmnstr's always coming on here telling us how the Rent Reich controls the DT apartment market. I wish we had numbers of how much space was lost. I also think there are a lot of intangibles that were lost to urban renewal(character), but also things were gained($$$) that are hard to factor into a determination of whether DT Norfolk is better or worse. It definitely changed the city, and I still lean toward it being changed for the worse.

[varider]

Downtown willl be iiight. It's getting better every single day. If you just take a stroll through downtown., you will hear and see so many signs of progress.Pile drivers for the LRT, apartments/retail being built on Monticello, Student Center on Granby, etc. All of these recent announcements, like US Development, New library, new consolidated courts complex ,etc. are setting us up to have a really nice downtown in the coming years. History is important.. it helps us learn for the future.. but no need to dwell on what could have been or what should have been. The city tore down a lot of three-four story slums, which allowed for office towers, condo towers, grocery stores, movie theaters, arcades, restaurants, stadiums, cruise ship terminals, museums, etc etc etc. I'm happy with the direction we are moving.

[Brent]

Norfolk is already a lot more attractive and interesting then Charlotte. Set your sights higher. They (Charlotte) have a very nice skyline and some stunning skyscrapers but plop any one of them in downtown Norfolk and the complete package would blow anything in NC away.

That said, there were some pretty big omissions when comparing banking in Norfolk with that in Richmond. In addition to regional offices for national banks (SunTrust Mortgage, Bank of America) there are also a number of financial services companies (Genworth Financial, some of the Wachovia Securities employees are left too-400 employess?, Scott and Stringfellow, Markel, Riverfront Investment Group) the operations headquarters for Capitol One and of course the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond.

Plus First Market Bank recently merged with Union Bankshares to become Union First market Bank and is headquartered in Richmond.

About Union Bankshares Corporation

Union Bankshares Corporation is one of the largest community banking organizations based in Virginia, providing full-service banking to the Northern, Central, Rappahannock, Tidewater, and Northern Neck regions of Virginia through its bank subsidiaries, Union Bank and Trust Company (41 locations in the counties of Albemarle, Caroline, Chesterfield, Fairfax, Fluvanna, Hanover, Henrico, King George, King William, Nelson, Spotsylvania, Stafford, and Westmoreland and the cities of Fredericksburg, Williamsburg, Newport News, Grafton, and Charlottesville); Northern Neck State Bank (nine locations in the counties of Richmond, Westmoreland, Essex, Northumberland, and Lancaster); and Rappahannock National Bank (seven locations in Washington, Front Royal, Middleburg, Warrenton, and Winchester). Union Investment Services, Inc. provides full brokerage services; Union Mortgage Group, Inc. provides a full line of mortgage products; and Union Insurance Group, LLC offers various lines of insurance products. Union Bank and Trust Company also owns a non-controlling interest in Johnson Mortgage Company, LLC. Additional information is available on the Company's web site at www.ubsh.com. The shares of the company are traded on the NASDAQ Global Select Market under the symbol "UBSH."

Edited February 9, 2010 by Brent

[Brent]

You guys will have to settle for having one of the world's biggest ports, beautiful beaches, an insane wealth of rivers, creeks and bays and the most cool infrastructure for hundreds of miles (tunnels, bridges, dry-docks, big ass ship building cranes, light rail...)

Richmond gets the financial services.

[usermel]

Brent, very cleverly put. I agree and you gave sone perspective in WISE way. Not every area will have everything wanted by its citizens. Im sure we can go to NYC and find citizens there who have issues in that city. The best thing to do is be content with what we have in the Norfolk metro now and work toward having more in the future! Good pints by all the memebrs! L.G.N.M

[urbanlife]

I will say that while there really isnt much anyone can do but wish that Norfolk didnt tear down so much of its urban fabric, I will say the lack of plumbing excuse is just an excuse. I doubt the oldest parts of Boston always had plumbing. That is something that could of been fixed and I am guessing many of the buildings that didnt have plumbing were lost in the 40s and 50s, anything after that was purely torn down without any long term vision.

What Norfolk has today is that it is a young city, very little of the city's fabric has survived from anything pre-1950...why do you think so many people in here love the look and feel of Granby? It isnt because it is loaded with new towers. Norfolk use to have several downtown streets that looked just like that. Much of what is seen in Norfolk is barely 100 years old and puts it in the young city category, which is why I pointed out the moves they make with St Paul Quadrant and the other inner neighborhoods around the downtown and how well they connect the other neighborhoods to the rest of the city will be the deciding factor of what this new Norfolk becomes. Which I do wish it well and hope that the city moves in the right directions and doesnt repeat the same mistakes it has made in its past.

And I am even more happy they didnt do to Ghent what they did to downtown because that was originally the plan, level the bad neighborhood and build a new one...tearing down neighborhoods doesnt make crime go away, it just makes the neighborhood harder to live in. If I am not mistaken, downtown was not the safest place to be well into the 90s, so it doesnt sound like removing so much of the city's history really solved any problems and what you are seeing now is the city finally starting to fix those problems that they created for themselves by destroying so much.