Norfolk History

[usermel]

I feel you urbanlife. Thats true about what feel is gotten from Granby street as well. Its the only street in Downtown that has the feel of other city streets. That said, the development in Norfolk hs been stunted and it started before,during and after urban renewal. I think the city of Norfolk has yet to get an exact focus for its downtown. Many wont agree with this statement but, I dont like MacArthur Centers location downtown. It has been a draw to downtown and has increased the activity there as well. but, Id loved ging shoe shopping on Granby when I was inhigh school and enjoying the urban vibe that cities should provide. A Mall downtown is not my idea of improving urban development but, its been done. Thats why I question if Norfolk has a long term plan to bring a true urban feel to downtown.

I LOVE Tidewater Community Downtown its a great addition to the city. There are some good eateries as well!!! What I feel seeing those pictures brings many emotions to my soul almost like I been here before and remember that Norfolk! Yes, its strange to feel that way and think it. Many older cats always talked of how much better downtown used to be. I feel that skyscrapers dont tell the story of cities myself. And due to what the older cats say of 1950's Norfolk up till 1960's Norfolk, it has some validity! I think we all have good points and none of us are wrong. Were all right in our own way. The fact remains we all LOVE Nrfolk and want whats best for it, different views but, we want whats best. Downtown needs to spread out a bit and seeing those Church Street pictures is painful! WOW, Church Street from what I heard from older cats was the spot and part of downtown. The renewal decreased the size of downtowns streets! Wow. WOW!! L.G.N.M

[urbanlife]

Much of those photos I posted are what is now the mall, which I do think was a good move for the city to build downtown...I just wish they wouldnt of destroyed the street pattern to build it...the mall would of worked just as well being a collection of buildings that had stores inside, connected by skywalks, and had places facing out into the streets. Basically they could of rebuilt some of the urban culture that they lost through the help of the mall, but instead they built a giant mall in the middle of downtown that has turned downtown into an "L" shaped downtown, which will definitely be hard to work around in the future.

[varider]

You guys will have to settle for having one of the world's biggest ports, beautiful beaches, an insane wealth of rivers, creeks and bays and the most cool infrastructure for hundreds of miles (tunnels, bridges, dry-docks, big ass ship building cranes, light rail...)

Richmond gets the financial services.

I would be satisfied with these things if they meant a more urban metro..

[varider]

Much of those photos I posted are what is now the mall, which I do think was a good move for the city to build downtown...I just wish they wouldnt of destroyed the street pattern to build it...the mall would of worked just as well being a collection of buildings that had stores inside, connected by skywalks, and had places facing out into the streets. Basically they could of rebuilt some of the urban culture that they lost through the help of the mall, but instead they built a giant mall in the middle of downtown that has turned downtown into an "L" shaped downtown, which will definitely be hard to work around in the future.

The mall is okay. It does a good job of bringing sububanites downtown. But as we've said millions of times before, they act like they are trapped inside MacArthur and nine times out of ten wouldn't have a clue how to walk to Granby St. or get to Waterside. They fly right off of 264 or 464, straight up into the garage, shop, then right back on the interstate. There is nothing wrong with having an enclosed shopping mall in a downtown. Philly has a MacArthur-like shopping mall, but they also have hundreds and thousands of storefronts throughout the downtown with MacArthur-quality stores and boutiques. If Norfolk "cleaned up" Granby St. and filled the empty storefronts, then did a media push for downtown shopping other than inside Mac, I think it'd be possible to see more and more people shopping both inside and outside which would snowball into a retail-filled urban center. Don't people go to downtown's for the urban experience? To live the city lifestyle? Sure, it's more convenient to go to Lynnhaven or Military Circle... you don't have to pay to park, find a spot in a deck or on the street, battle downtown traffic, etc.But I go downtown because I want to feeel like I'm in a city and act like an urban folk, hahaha. Something must be done. Also, I feel like the mall needs to open up storefronts to front Monticello Avenue and City Hall Avenue. There's no reason there should be that much "dead space" when you have that much retail on the other side of the wall. A "third anchor" needs to be built too.

[brikkman]

The mall is okay. It does a good job of bringing sububanites downtown. But as we've said millions of times before, they act like they are trapped inside MacArthur and nine times out of ten wouldn't have a clue how to walk to Granby St. or get to Waterside. They fly right off of 264 or 464, straight up into the garage, shop, then right back on the interstate. There is nothing wrong with having an enclosed shopping mall in a downtown. Philly has a MacArthur-like shopping mall, but they also have hundreds and thousands of storefronts throughout the downtown with MacArthur-quality stores and boutiques. If Norfolk "cleaned up" Granby St. and filled the empty storefronts, then did a media push for downtown shopping other than inside Mac, I think it'd be possible to see more and more people shopping both inside and outside which would snowball into a retail-filled urban center. Don't people go to downtown's for the urban experience? To live the city lifestyle? Sure, it's more convenient to go to Lynnhaven or Military Circle... you don't have to pay to park, find a spot in a deck or on the street, battle downtown traffic, etc.But I go downtown because I want to feeel like I'm in a city and act like an urban folk, hahaha. Something must be done. Also, I feel like the mall needs to open up storefronts to front Monticello Avenue and City Hall Avenue. There's no reason there should be that much "dead space" when you have that much retail on the other side of the wall. A "third anchor" needs to be built too.

yeah, we have been talking about monticello store fronts for years on here. Nordstroms would have to give up some space to do that and the fed building kind of kills the magic. I think they should give up a little space though, it would be the same difference if you ask me. I do not think the third anchor should be like nordstroms. It should be open from the outside. I envision a multi-level building accessed by elevators and stairs with cool stores that you can see from the ground. The face of the building should not be flat either. It should have some design to it. All the apartments in this area look the same. Flat fact, small or bigger baloncy, just BS I hate them. I believe they should have some interior shops/stores as well to keep the flow. it would add so much activity to the area, especially with the wellsfargo project. I would also make it taller than the mall, so like 4 to 5 stories with a best buy or target that facing in a NW direction. It would be cool if it was like on the 4 and 5 floors of the builiding, but getting big items down would be ackward at best. This town needs some vision.

[Brent]

I would be satisfied with these things if they meant a more urban metro..

You guys are well on your way to that (or at least on your way to having an undisputed center of gravity for the region, downtown Norfolk). Sometimes people are just too close to see how fast things are turning around in their area. I take out of town people down to Norfolk (from Richmond) all the time, they love it. It has become a downtown where just hanging out is enough of an activity. There is real synergy happening there now. Someone visiting from Charlotte or Columbia (for example) would be jealous of what they saw happening in Norfolk (just as we are jealous of development that we see in other cities). When I travel outside of Richmond I get really jealous but I can usually cure that with a development tour of my city when I return home. I see that just as much stuff is happening here but I've just gotten so used to seeing it that I don't even see it anymore. Does that makes since?

Long story short, I don't expect you to settle with what you have, was just pointing out how much you actually have going on. I'm a Virginian first, Richmonder second. Every region or our great commonwealth pulls its weight and contributes to the VA experience.

Back to the history thing, that which was torn down would look amazing today (think Boston, Old Montreal, New Orleans). In the end some choices do have to be made. Keep the old or build an office tower in which 1,000 people can work. Norfolk should have never razed entire neighborhoods without a specific need or plans to replace them. Fortunately they kept some of the old stuff. Norfolk still has a lot of charm and a specific sense of place.

[timothyp_787]

Plume St in 1921, you can see the Arcade in the background, as well as streetcar tracks running down Plume, which would be great if those were still there and being used.

Depending upon later buried utility locations, they probably *are* still there, just paved over. I know the ones on Botetourt in Ghent are; when the city scraped the streets around the Hague to repave them a couple of years ago, it exposed the rails and cobblestones in places.

Incidentally, it also exposed the wooden paving blocks used on Mowbray Arch; apparently the city used wooden blocks on Mowbray at the behest of the wealthy residents -- it quieted the sound of the passing horses' hooves. I took a few pictures, it was interesting.

[mistermetaj]

Your argument presents a false choice between the DT Norfolk of today and the historic vibrancy of the past. What building in DT Norfolk couldn't be moved to preserve the old density? Architecturally, which "high-rise" was worth the destruction? I'm not suggesting every building should have been preserved. I agree that suburbanization was probably the main contributor to Norfolk's decline, but urban renewal is a lot easier when there is something to actually renew. Looking at all those razed 2 and 3-storied buildings, we can only imagine how they could have been utilized as residences or retail-space, preferably both. Telmnstr's always coming on here telling us how the Rent Reich controls the DT apartment market. I wish we had numbers of how much space was lost. I also think there are a lot of intangibles that were lost to urban renewal(character), but also things were gained($$$) that are hard to factor into a determination of whether DT Norfolk is better or worse. It definitely changed the city, and I still lean toward it being changed for the worse.

I think your argument is more a critique on the architectural standards of Norfolk today compared to the 30s and 40s. Like you, I am a big fan of the beaux art architecture that defined US cities back in the 00-20s then to the deco of the 30s and 40s. It is the beauty of those buildings that gave charm to the city and provides us with those beautiful pictures.

What Norfolk lacks is sound contextual architecture. Architecture that is modern but still fits in with the historic buildings around them (mainly the facade). Especially for a place like DT Norfolk, it's the type of architecture that could somewhat resurrect the demolished Norfolk we see in pictures from the dead.

To see what truly great contextual architecture is, look up Robert AM Stern. He has been a New York contextualist for decades now and has done wonders with areas of NY that were ravaged by urban renewal and brought back a sense of order and class to those areas with his contextual buildings. It is architects like him that Norfolk desperately needs.

If you do go to his website look at the Brompton, Harrison, and Superior Ink Condominiums.

[usermel]

I feel the mall has hurt some of the shops on Granby in a SMALL way. I agree MacArthur has worked downtown! What Im confused about when I go downtown and if not from here is are they trying to create a more Town Center vibe or actual downtown. Seeing how much space MacArthur took is crazy to me! And VARider is correct about Philly having a mall and it being cool because they also have a thriving downtown with shops as well. I just think Norfolk city leaders didnt thibk long term. Imagine what the mall will look like in 50 years. We all know eventually it will be torn down so imagine the job it wil take to replace it in 50-60 years!! I think urbanlife mentioned them doing a outside shops idea were people entered outside from the street! Love that idea made in city blocks.

What I love about true downtowns is you can go in a shop and not have to walk the mall to get to the Apple Store or where you need to go. I'd love to go to The Apple Store only and not have to walk the mall to get what I need!! All in all the mall has helped traffic downtown but, VaRider put it best. It seems like they go in downtown from the suburbs go to the mall and leave. Yes, its god for business but, the havent discovered what downtown is until they walk it. Oh well, one day hopefully they will come up with a plan to make downtown appeal more outside of MacArthur Center even though the mall has made money for the city which is good from a financial view!! GO Norfolk,L.G.N.M

[cpeakesqr]

I think your argument is more a critique on the architectural standards of Norfolk today compared to the 30s and 40s. Like you, I am a big fan of the beaux art architecture that defined US cities back in the 00-20s then to the deco of the 30s and 40s. It is the beauty of those buildings that gave charm to the city and provides us with those beautiful pictures.

What Norfolk lacks is sound contextual architecture. Architecture that is modern but still fits in with the historic buildings around them (mainly the facade). Especially for a place like DT Norfolk, it's the type of architecture that could somewhat resurrect the demolished Norfolk we see in pictures from the dead.

To see what truly great contextual architecture is, look up Robert AM Stern. He has been a New York contextualist for decades now and has done wonders with areas of NY that were ravaged by urban renewal and brought back a sense of order and class to those areas with his contextual buildings. It is architects like him that Norfolk desperately needs.

If you do go to his website look at the Brompton, Harrison, and Superior Ink Condominiums.

I've seen the Superior Ink Condos before, unfortunately his website is giving me a seizure, the pictures flicker. It would definitely be nice to have someone like that here in Norfolk. If only Belmont or Harbor Heights had been designed by someone with this philosophy of design and planning.

[burt]

Those photos of "old" Norfolk posted by Urbanlife are great and full of character...almost European.

There's a color picture of Norfolk in the current Richmond Magazine Sourcebook on page 122. It's an up-to-date view of an area of what I think is called The Hague showing beautiful mansions along a curved shoreline and the skyline beyond.

[varider]

My question to you all is.. what would it take to get Norfolk back in the "city" mentality? It seems like it shouldn't take much. The city is already ultra-dense relative to other major southern cities. In my AP Euro class, we've been learning about urbanization of the 19th century and the industrial revolution,etc. We came across a man named Baron Haussman who reconstructed Paris and made it into the great urban gem that it is today. The funny thing is, in the back of my mind, I was sitting in the class day-dreaming about becoming the Baron Haussmann of Norfolk and re-structuring the infrastructure and urbanizing Norfolk, hahaha.

[mistermetaj]

My question to you all is.. what would it take to get Norfolk back in the "city" mentality? It seems like it shouldn't take much. The city is already ultra-dense relative to other major southern cities. In my AP Euro class, we've been learning about urbanization of the 19th century and the industrial revolution,etc. We came across a man named Baron Haussman who reconstructed Paris and made it into the great urban gem that it is today. The funny thing is, in the back of my mind, I was sitting in the class day-dreaming about becoming the Baron Haussmann of Norfolk and re-structuring the infrastructure and urbanizing Norfolk, hahaha.

Well for starters, Paris was already an urban metropolis, just a hodge podge of buildings and roads much like London is today. Haussman was a city planner and created the straight boulevards such as the Champs Elyses to create better connectivity for the city. Ironically, Haussman's plans saw the destruction of large neighborhoods, even in the face of Parisian protests. In the end, he is celebrated for the actions he took, and Paris is better off for it.

Conversely, the US version of Haussman, Robert Moses believed cars were the wave of the future and changed up New Yorks infrastructure (he was well after the 1811 planning of Manhattan island, so don't confuse him for this)by creating large roads around the island, large bridges connecting the boroughs, and larger cross island roads. Ironically, at the time he was heralded as a real visionary, and today he is known for butchering a lot of the city (see Park Row).

[usermel]

Paris,France!!! One word describes it! WOW!! One of the best places I've been if not the best! Its between Brussells(excuse my spelling) and Paris! Now as for planning Norfolk like Paris it could happen. Norfolks downtown is concentrated in a small area. If its spread out more it can do some things that Paris did. Why not?. We must 1st relocate those in surrounding projects and homes within resonable distances. And plan the city from there. Some much of downtown was lost to the projects that its almost as if it never was that BIG in land mass. The downtown has almost shrunk itself due to the urban renewal. That said, with creative design to make downtown as vibrant as Paris, it can be done if we believe! The mind is were everything that man/woman creates starts and then becomes reality. Doubt creates nothing!!! L.G.N.M

Edited February 10, 2010 by usermel

[urbanlife]

The key for the city's future is going to be St Paul Quadrant. The amount of land there is almost double the size of downtown, which if SPQ is done as urban blocks that is easy to navigate, then that will really make Norfolk feel more like a big city, instead of a downtown with a couple key streets and a mall.

[usermel]

I second that urbanlife. That would help a bunch to expand the small area we see as downtown and give it the land it needs to expand like other medium sized cities such as Charlotte! L.G.N.M

[urbanlife]

I second that urbanlife. That would help a bunch to expand the small area we see as downtown and give it the land it needs to expand like other medium sized cities such as Charlotte! L.G.N.M

Funny you mention Charlotte, I quickly measured downtown Charlotte to downtown Norfolk and they are roughly the same if you include downtown Norfolk to be from the waterfront to Va Beach Blvd, and from the edge of W. Freemason to Tidewater Dr. Also an interesting thing, this is solely based off of satellite views, but Norfolk currently looks denser than Charlotte, but Charlotte has the joy of having really tall buildings to hide such a fact...but keep in mind, I say this under just looking at the two most recent photos on Google Earth, the views from the street is really the deciding factor on which place would feel more urban.

But I will say, Norfolk destroyed much of its past, so it would be wise for the city to embrace its future and build on itself with the mindset that it could someday become the great city that it was...though it will just never have that same historic feel that it once had.

[brikkman]

The main problem I have with the cities current history is, everything that is being made now of days is cookie-cutter suburban style developments. Partial board, half brick and crap like that belongs in the burbs, not in your DT. With that, they have the same mind frame as well, there is no flow that urbanlife speaks of, there is no unique structure or flow with the street. Here's an apartment building, here is an office tower, there is nothing to link different kinds of people with different agendas on any give day.

[brikkman]

The key for the city's future is going to be St Paul Quadrant. The amount of land there is almost double the size of downtown, which if SPQ is done as urban blocks that is easy to navigate, then that will really make Norfolk feel more like a big city, instead of a downtown with a couple key streets and a mall.

Do you think the current plan does that?

[mikeas]

I fear St Paul's Quadrant will be cheaply constructed in the same fashion as some of the newer apartments in the Freemason Area.

This cheap cookie cutter construction is not just unique to downtown. Take a look at some of ODU's new buildings compared to say Virginia Tech. They get stone ODU gets pre-cast brick stamped concrete. Old Dominion isn't going anywhere, make the buildings so they last.

[urbanlife]

Do you think the current plan does that?

I hope so, the current plan that I have seen of it looks very hopeful, but alot can happen between now and when the area actually begins construction (whenever that might be.)

[varider]

I wish we could build out the SPQ into a dense development similar to DC-style. But I'm sure it'll come out looking more like Freemason.

[varider]

Wow, look at how much of a city it once was.

Where's that "city" at.. Why does it seem so urban in these photos?

Edited February 11, 2010 by varider

[brikkman]

I wish we could build out the SPQ into a dense development similar to DC-style. But I'm sure it'll come out looking more like Freemason.

You got it buddy

For this area and the city, just something being new is enough for them.

[urbanlife]

I wish we could build out the SPQ into a dense development similar to DC-style. But I'm sure it'll come out looking more like Freemason.

I agree with this and also feel you might be right about how it turns out...though I hope that the SPQ gets built when the economy in Hampton Roads is on a big upswing because that might push for a more dense district.