Norfolk History

[urbanlife]

....so I'm speechless right now, cause if you're right about the Darth Vader building being built on that site, then I watched the National Commerce building be imploded from the then under construction Norfolk Southern Building. Because I know the building I watched made way for the Darth Vader tower...hm....

Well then that is what you saw because I am right about this. I have a photograph of the National Commerce building within an aerial shot of Norfolk after it had been recladded hanging on my wall, I just couldnt find any pics online (yet) that shows the recladding of the building. Norfolk really needs to stop tearing down buildings.

[varider]

It seems like Norfolk has realized that renovation and restoration is better than demolition.. but it still sucks becasue I'm sure all of these buildings didnt have to be torn down.. I'm sure cities like NY and Philly had buildings with small elavators or whatever but they made it work. If Norfolk would have kept and restored these buildings then downtown Norfolk would be much bigger and we probably would have already moved N of Brambleton and E of St. Paul's ..

The "new and improved" Main St. sucks. The buildings have insane setbacks from the street and provide ZERO space for ground-floor retail. Other than Subway and the Deli... what else is there on Main? I hate it, I hate it, I hate it...

Edited March 23, 2010 by varider

[Telmnstr]

Sure they were pretty, but I thought you all were about nice skylines? I hate to admit it here, but I LOVE the darth vader building! AT&T is another favorite.

Bank of America building is garbage though. The waffle iron.

Wonderful pictures.

As I recall, wasn't Norfolk kind of the dregs in much of it's history?

Fascinating photos.

Do you have any of the AT&T building being built?!? What about old photos with the microwave horns? A friend of mine had some photos of the building when it had the microwave horns (not his pictures) but didn't put them online, and he unfortunately passed away.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Telmnstr

[ronsmytheiii]

Sure they were pretty, but I thought you all were about nice skylines? I hate to admit it here, but I LOVE the darth vader building! AT&T is another favorite.

THe Darth Vader Building and At&T do not make a nice skyline, the older building is much better architecturally and height wise. Frankly the fact that it was imploded is a travesty against the city of Norfolk, as the building that replace it is an ugly POS that should be demolished itself. I would rather have a medium height Art Deco or earlier building than any supertall modern/postmodern design now a days (except maybe the Beekman design) and that goes double for the At&T building

[Telmnstr]

THe Darth Vader Building and At&T do not make a nice skyline, the older building is much better architecturally and height wise. Frankly the fact that it was imploded is a travesty against the city of Norfolk, as the building that replace it is an ugly POS that should be demolished itself. I would rather have a medium height Art Deco or earlier building than any supertall modern/postmodern design now a days (except maybe the Beekman design) and that goes double for the At&T building

*GASP* you hated on the beautiful AT&T building! EEEK!

Still looking for a tour of that sucker. Not the CLEC side. Not the ILEC side. The AT&T side.

I've heard it's mostly empty. Makes sense now that we've left SxS / Strowger switching behind and moved to digital, and the size is so compact.

But other rumors say it's nuclear hardened, as it transports communications at wartime. It also used to be part of the early warning radar system.

Pretty cool.

And it looks nice.

Sure there aren't any windows, but still. It doesn't look cheap.

[urbanlife]

*GASP* you hated on the beautiful AT&T building! EEEK!

Still looking for a tour of that sucker. Not the CLEC side. Not the ILEC side. The AT&T side.

I've heard it's mostly empty. Makes sense now that we've left SxS / Strowger switching behind and moved to digital, and the size is so compact.

But other rumors say it's nuclear hardened, as it transports communications at wartime. It also used to be part of the early warning radar system.

Pretty cool.

And it looks nice.

Sure there aren't any windows, but still. It doesn't look cheap.

Actually I never minded the AT&T building, while it has no windows, they used good materials for its exterior and it has a good look to it for a building that is basically dead at street level.

Also, skylines mean nothing if there is no activity at the street level. What would of been a better choice, or at least a different choice (saying it is better is impossible to prove) would of been if urban renewal went in elsewhere with the new modern buildings and left downtown to decay until a later date when renovation and preservation became popular. How different of a city Norfolk would of been if it decided to use its urban renewal money at Fort Norfolk for a "new downtown." This would of doubled the size of the downtown and would of created new problems and challenges for the city to face, but it would of left much of the old Norfolk in tack, and it would be a completely different city today.

Just things to think about that obviously cannot happen.

[varider]

I'm gonna stop dwelling on the past and think about all the good that is happenng in present day Norfolk Va. It's good to look back on the mistakes of the past so we don't repeat them.. and I think the city has picked up the idea of restoration and renovation. US Development is adding 1,000+ housing units in buildings that are currently blighted, unoccupied, or leaning. This will be a major boost to the activity and population of downtown Norfolk. While it's sad to see what looks like Main St. after an atom bomb was dropped, it's great to see how far that street has come since the urban renewal age and that area is now a major financial district with a F500 company and holds a good chunk of the region's banking assets. It's lined with banks, railroads, hotels, convention centers, deli's, cafe's, sub shops, etc. Let's look at Granby St.. A street that was doing so poor after urban renewal that it became a pedestrian walkway instead of a major automobile corridor. Now that street is booming with big business such as Dominion Enterprises and the finest dining in the entire region. Hundreds of people now live on top of businesses and mixed use development is thriving. Just in the past month we have seen the announcements of new restaurants and retailers on Granby and as construction wraps up this year, things can only get better. The hiring of retail consultant from Downtown Works will also aid in the attraction of business to downtown storefronts. Now we look at Boush St... 7 years ago.. Boush St. was basically crap. The main attraction was the Union Mission. Now Boush St. is lined with thousands of apartments and high rise condos, a major, upscale, urban grocer, the Union Mission is in the process of relocating out of downtown and US Development will turn the historic building into living space and ground floor retail. Monticello. MAJOR IMPROVEMENT in the last decade. New restaurants such as California Pizza Kitchen and Kincaid's, a major 22 floor office tower is wrapping up construction, the TCC student center is adding much needed density to the corridor, hundreds of apartments are under construction with ground floor retail.. making the "third anchor" lot very attractive for a mixed use development. An ice skating rink is set up during the winter months.. a decade ago.. I'm sure that a ice skating rink would not have been successful in downtown Norfolk. New developments in the arts, a cruise ship terminal that brings millions of dollars of revenue into the hospitality market and has gained the respect of the cruising community as one of the best places to dock on the east coast. The development of light rail transit. Who would have thought that Norfolk, VA would have built an amazing light rail transit line in the midst of a deep recession and economic turmoil. Not only will the rail system add to the urbanity of Norfolk, but it will, and has already, aid in the development of transit oriented development, adding thousands of residences, office space, and retail. The stops will become mini activity centers in themselves and retail will sprout up around each one in due time. Other developments such as 201 Twenty One, Fort Norfolk Plaza, and the Belmont have made Norfolk a better city. Overall, the growth of our downtown since the travesty of urban renewal is tremendous and we have gained national recognition from sources such as the New York Post and Planning Magazine... "Norfolk is Back.."

But the growth is nowhere near slowing down. Our light rail system will continue to grow.. and thus the "city", urbanity of Norfolk will become greater. Part of the reason Downtown Norfolk looked so busy in these historic photos is because public transit was the main way to travel. As LRT grows to the Naval Station and other neighborhoods throughout the city, more and more urban develoments will be announced and the city will become more of a city. We have seen that the MacArthur Center, Waterside, Nauticus, and the cruise ship terminal have spurred the development of the 70s, 80s, 90s,and 00s. We can now look up to light rail transit, the development of the Westin Hotel & Conference Center, the new Slover library, US Development, and the new courthouse to spur the next round of development. This new wave will probably be accompanied by new apartment high-rises and office towers as welll as new developments in the arts, etc. I'm excited for the future of Norfolk

[mlsimons]

Dang, that really, really irritates me. Look at Main St. WTF!

The only way you will get through this is to convince your mind that Norfolk was bombed in a freak aerial raid. Then you will feel proud that the lone confederate statue survived in the middle. This is the only way you will be able to sleep through the night; now that you know the whole truth about urban renewal in Norfolk.

Norfolk...like many of its disadvantaged citizens has been raped.

This is not to say that Norfolk has been defeated, or is less deserving of our respect. Its just seen sad days, and hopefully better days ahead.

[757hokie]

Even without urban renewal, the streets of norfolk would have been dead by the 70s, as they were outside of every non major city. Urban renewal wasn't just an idea that sprang forth in response to old buildings, it came about because the old urban core had been made obsolete by cheap housing/transportation into the city. You can't just get mad at urban renewal, you have to get mad at all of the ideas of the time. White flight (in the case of norfolk especially), the growing car culture and highway system, and postwar housing and ideals all lead to urban renewal being needed in the first place. Also, you have to keep in mind, that companies of the 60s 70s and 80s did not want to be located in an old building, they wanted something shiny and new, so in order to keep businesses in the CBD (and give it the opportunity to grow) you have to cater to the corporate culture of the area.

Also, i've said it before, and i'll say it again, the BoA and the AT&T building are the best examples of good architecture our downtown has (left i should say since the kirn was demolished). Almost all of these older buildings are much like the buildings we get today, crappy architecture longing to be from another period/style. People just don't see that because they're old so people don't realize the context with which they were built. Imagine people 50 years from now complaining about someone trying to re-clad the belmont at freemason. It's the same attitude.

[urbanlife]

Even without urban renewal, the streets of norfolk would have been dead by the 70s, as they were outside of every non major city. Urban renewal wasn't just an idea that sprang forth in response to old buildings, it came about because the old urban core had been made obsolete by cheap housing/transportation into the city. You can't just get mad at urban renewal, you have to get mad at all of the ideas of the time. White flight (in the case of norfolk especially), the growing car culture and highway system, and postwar housing and ideals all lead to urban renewal being needed in the first place. Also, you have to keep in mind, that companies of the 60s 70s and 80s did not want to be located in an old building, they wanted something shiny and new, so in order to keep businesses in the CBD (and give it the opportunity to grow) you have to cater to the corporate culture of the area.

Also, i've said it before, and i'll say it again, the BoA and the AT&T building are the best examples of good architecture our downtown has (left i should say since the kirn was demolished). Almost all of these older buildings are much like the buildings we get today, crappy architecture longing to be from another period/style. People just don't see that because they're old so people don't realize the context with which they were built. Imagine people 50 years from now complaining about someone trying to re-clad the belmont at freemason. It's the same attitude.

I personally use the words "urban renewal" as an umbrella to sum up everything you said in the first paragraph. Obviously this wasnt just something Norfolk did. Portland lost a number of buildings in downtown, the southern end of our downtown was completely wiped out in the name of urban renewal. I have seen pictures of the southern part of Portland that looks just like looking at old pictures of Norfolk where it looks completely different today. Many of the old theaters that once lined Broadway here have been replaces with shiny office towers.

What bothers me the most about Norfolk's urban renewal was how willing they were to jump on that bandwagon and level so much of their city in the promise of a new city without thinking twice about the history they were losing. It would of made sense if they leveled a quarter of the downtown to test out urban renewal or did the whole Waterside Ave redevelopment. Even some of the road realignments made sense, the whole Busch to Waterside curve makes alot of sense. The City Hall complex and the Scope both made sense. What didnt make sense was all the space in between that was torn down.

But we could go on about all the mistakes the city made then, but I will agree varider, I am a strong believer that it is important to remember the mistakes of the past, but focusing on what is currently at hand. The city no longer has that large stock of historical buildings within the city, but that doesnt mean that the city cannot grow and become a focal point for the region. Obviously Norfolk has made alot of improvements over the past 10 years. I can see that really easily just from the pictures compared to what I remember of the city 10 years ago before I moved away. I sort of have the advantage of being far away so I can see the amount of drastic changes that have happened because I dont get to see the daily processes.

The important thing for Norfolk now is to protect those buildings that survived urban renewal and the city needs to protect as many of those buildings that came from the effect of urban renewal. Those buildings and that act is now apart of Norfolk's history whether it likes it or not and there should always be reminders within the city from that era. There also needs to be a stronger push for better urban planning within the city and a masterplan to connect all of the neighborhoods of the city to downtown. I have always felt that each neighborhood felt like it was separate from the rest. Connectivity is a great way to move a city forward together, where no one (no matter what their social class is) feels like they are being left behind.

I have made this point before, Norfolk is roughly the same size as SF, so there is nothing wrong with Norfolk using SF as a model for what Norfolk could become. The Muni is a great example of how rail can connect neighborhoods together. I think Norfolk needs to think more grand when it does anything (which oddly enough was probably what they were thinking when doing urban renewal.) I think many of you can agree with this "think grand" idea, especially when it comes to areas like SPQ. There needs to be a plan that documents Norfolk's current downtown size and the size that they wish Norfolk to grow to. SPQ and all the way north to VaBeach Blvd should all be considered apart of the future downtown size. Neighborhoods should be properly defined with proper tax benefits to help each district create its own identity.

Everything I have pointed out is actually possible, nothing I have said is a far fetched idea, it just requires people who are willing to push the city to be a better place. Hampton Roads is in desperate need for a true urban city, VaBeach will eventually be able to answer this need, but VaBeach will give the region a VB style urban city. Norfolk should focus on creating an identity that the people of Norfolk could be proud of so that there is a difference between living in Hampton Roads and living in Norfolk. All the pieces are their to make this happen, there just needs to be that push to make such a future possible.

[brikkman]

After seeing the pictures of before and during the era of destruction, I was amazed at the thought processes.

It was as if someone said tear it down but did not think to what they would replace it with. I only can guess,

seedy (sp*) looking areas around factories, maybe some businesses that went under and they just thought, "well we will

just tear it down". It is sad. it seems as though they just tore everything down and hoped eventually something would

happenned in its place. We lost potential character, we lost the city history. If my thoughts are correct, we still have

the same approach to fixing issues of seediness (sp*) and non-fluid issues of crime. I said some years ago,

when you drive around Norfolk and try to think of reasons why it did not exploded into a huge metro, you start to see

a city that has not been managed for years. I see entire neighborhoods in ruins, just the other day I saw a meter-maid in ghent!!!

Why would a metermaid be in ghent well off the beaten path of DT, but not in the rest of the city? You have to ask

yourself those types of questions. Are they only trying to perserve Ghent vs the other areas of the city? I guess

what I am trying to say is, if they take those approaches to the remainder of the city, we may not have the problems

we have now with disconnected neighborhoods and lack of development across the city.

[Telmnstr]

I hit NYC every two years as some friends and myself help with a conference called HOPE (Hackers on Planet Earth.)

The hotel that the conference is held in was supposed to be demolished, because Merril Lynch wanted to build a new HQ. Of course with the financial crisis, this isn't the case.

None the less, lots of people were all up in arms saying how the hotel should be saved, it's old, yadda yadda. These are supposed to be the people who are all about freedom. At the end of the day, the owner of the building should be free to sell it to whomever he wants. If someone has the money to hold onto the building and retrofit it to meet current standards and needs, that's nice. But there isn't progress without losses. We should preserve some history, but you can't mark everything as a keeper and grow.

Also, old buildings suck when it comes to facilities.

[mlsimons]

I hit NYC every two years as some friends and myself help with a conference called HOPE (Hackers on Planet Earth.)

The hotel that the conference is held in was supposed to be demolished, because Merril Lynch wanted to build a new HQ. Of course with the financial crisis, this isn't the case.

None the less, lots of people were all up in arms saying how the hotel should be saved, it's old, yadda yadda. These are supposed to be the people who are all about freedom. At the end of the day, the owner of the building should be free to sell it to whomever he wants. If someone has the money to hold onto the building and retrofit it to meet current standards and needs, that's nice. But there isn't progress without losses. We should preserve some history, but you can't mark everything as a keeper and grow.

Also, old buildings suck when it comes to facilities.

We've been discussing this a lot in my land use law class. The right to zoning and regulate property comes from the right of the gov't to exercise "police powers" which is furthermore derived from "nuisance law." The case can be made that a historic structure adds the same value to a neighborhood that a park or sidewalk does. And this value is simply not present in a newer structure aside from the value it gives economically. Think about it in terms of a historic battlefield. Its easy to say, well that land owner is losing all potential value, and the right to exercise his American property rights to build whatever he chooses on the field. But the battlefield provides something to the public, so the gov't has the right to police the battlefield owner to not build. We can see now the value which the older buildings which were razed by urban renewal offered. We clearly have trouble orienting ourselves with certain neighborhoods downtown, b/c there are no visible landmarks to distinguish where things used to be and happen.

But yes the whole idea is very debatable and blurry.

[ronsmytheiii]

None the less, lots of people were all up in arms saying how the hotel should be saved, it's old, yadda yadda. These are supposed to be the people who are all about freedom. At the end of the day, the owner of the building should be free to sell it to whomever he wants. If someone has the money to hold onto the building and retrofit it to meet current standards and needs, that's nice. But there isn't progress without losses. We should preserve some history, but you can't mark everything as a keeper and grow.

Also, old buildings suck when it comes to facilities.

What about the people who walk by it everyday, who have to see it all the time should we ignore their right to live in a pleasant environment? I agree that everything cant be preserved, but if most people want to keep it then they should be honored. It is arrogant to simply state that those with money should dictate what is preserved and what is demolished. If that were the case, then just about every building would be demolished.

[usermel]

WOW, this topic is great. So many different views but, all valid. I think, I don't know but, I think we all can agree that Norfolk made some bad choices as well as some good ones. I have heard some great things by the members from high school students to grandfathers/mothers and in between. What excites me is the care and interest in making Norfolk better. Everyone who comments on this site wants a better Norfolk but, its important we see that we all wont agree. What we do ALL agree on is we LIKE/LOVE Norfolk and Im encouraged by ALL the comments from those I agree with, to those I disagree with!!!

Norfolk had/has buildings with great history. What I learned from all of you members has been quite emotional for me because the pictures show me people and places that at there time they existed were important in their own way. What I'm saying is are we looking at buildings that will be viewed as we do those of the past? I see in this forum Im a part of history. I never thought of it that way!!! Will those folks whom are like us in 50-75 years from now argue they shouldnt have got rid of the Norfolk Southern Building or the Dominion Building or Suntrust?

When we view our past we see a part of us. Change like urban renewal is similar to all we are seeing now, Different? Yes, but all in the name of TRYING to better the city(Such as light rail. Norfolk years ago had rail cars downtown that are gone. Light Rail is a more useable version that will be expanded beyond Norfolk of course into Va Beach). Will we see mistakes( I like to say bad decisions)? Yes, of course! The key is feeling good were a part of something bigger than any of us. I saw Norfolk before the start of the Uconn/Temple womans game last night as ESPN showed the skyline from Portsmouth and I said"WOW,the city has changed since I was in high school and downtown for the better"and I was at peace!

I saw in the history pictures we show hear the results of urban renewal even though I question the way that was handled and said "hey, could have been better or worse but, I enjoy some of the results"! Lets keep the debate going because you never know what the future holds but, what we do know is were a part of Norfolks history and we walk those streets like those in the 1920's-1970's did and that makes me smile!! Great topic ladies/gents!

Edited March 24, 2010 by usermel

[varider]

Main STREET

Main Street Post WWIII

Reconstruction pt. 2

[skylinefan]

The 15th picture down is just depressing. Look at what a great building the old Union Station was. The building was torn down to make way for the current court and jail complex. Just absolutely depressing.

[usermel]

Great pictures Varider. Man, the members here have some great finds as far as pictures and info is concerned. And skylinefan is right abut the 15th picture down as well. Those pictures give a better view of what Norfolk tore down during the renewal process as well. Oh well, its a bunch more than spilled milk but, I still won't cry over it. Lets hope the next time urban renewal is needed the city of Norfolk is mindful of what it tears down. Great pictures again Varider!!! L.G.N.M

[Telmnstr]

Fascinating pictures. I'd always wondered if you could roll into the Kirn library Sargent McMemorialMcRoom (whatever it's called) and scan lots of stuff with your tiny flatbed scanner you brought.

[urbanlife]

Fascinating pictures. I'd always wondered if you could roll into the Kirn library Sargent McMemorialMcRoom (whatever it's called) and scan lots of stuff with your tiny flatbed scanner you brought.

Probably, and someone should probably do that. I am sure they have much more photos than whats online. I wish they did what Seattle did, which Seattle put all of its historic photos and maps on flickr.com.

[ronsmytheiii]

Norfolk 1919:

Edited April 3, 2010 by ronsmytheiii

[ronsmytheiii]

I love the old look of liners, much better than the floating wedding cake cruise liners of today:

Edited April 3, 2010 by ronsmytheiii

[ronsmytheiii]

[usermel]

WOW, more great pictures. Norfolk has come along way. Saw the date of 1905 on those pictures(some of them) and I was shocked. Never seen pictures that old of the city. Man, schools should offer local history classes to students in each metro are, small or large in size. This would have explained why urban renewal was needed. I learned of urban renewal in my late 20's! These pictures show the positive things Norfolk has done as well as what we lost. Teaching it when were young would give an appreciation for what Norfolk has to offer NOW! I see it but, love the old look of Norfolk as well. These pictures make me feel like a kid again.

I feel like Im learning about my areas past with every new picture from the past. Thanks to all of you that post these pictures it has touched me greatly!!!

[usermel]

I always wondered this. Norfolk was dense but unlike the northeast cities never went up high building wise in the early 1900's. I always wondered why that is. I also see why it was different then as opposed to now. There were no malls and no strip malls etc.! If you wanted certain items you had to go to town/city! It's great when you think bout how Norfolk has grown. Has it been rapid? No but, these pictures supply a mirror into the change the city has had. They basically tore down the city and rebuilt it.

WoW, the more we convo about the city/area and show pictures of the past its clear that Norfolk has at least tried to step up and make Norfolk more appealing. Give Norfolk time, I think the city one day will turn the corner and be a top US city> Now we have a growing city and thats a GREAT sign. Id rather be part of change than no changes at all. Great pictures!! L.G.N.M