Richmond Region Transportation

[journiyin]

Why traffic circles are not always a good idea:

As I was observing the steady flow of cars/trucks flying down Overbrook Rd. at speeds in excess of 40mph on Saturday, I had the opportunity to see that the 2 little traffic circles the city installed are totally useless! They were installed to slow traffic down and ease the flow of traffic. Well, guess what Mr. or Ms. city traffic planner? It does neither. Vehicles are travelling on Overbrook Rd. over 20mph above the posted speed limit, and no one in the area seems to have an understanding of what these circles are for or how to negotiate them. (Please see link below)

how NOT to negotiate a traffic circle

It is my opinion that the curb radii need to be enlarged at all 4 corners, and the circle enlarged with bigger landscaping which would cost a small fortune, or the city needs to remove the circles and install 4-way stops. I know these transportation engineering types will pull statistics out of their underdrawers to dispute the 4-way stop intersections, but take it from someone who drives the fan and west of the boulevard daily; the 4-way stop intersections are a Great Idea!! Statistics are crap! Anyone can put together a bunch of numbers to say whatever the heck they want them to say. The 4-way stops work well and it is a heck of a lot cheaper than anything else out there. Then there are those that will argue; "But you waste more gas stopping at every intersection." Bull crap!! You waste more gas sitting at an intersection like Sam Sausagehead waiting to get across, or waiting for a light to change. And of course you have the ones arguing about the whole concept of it taking longer to get through an area. Well DUH! That's the whole point. In a residential area, the time it takes to get through should be a moot point. If you are worried about time, then get your arse on an interstate and pay a toll!

A couple of quick rebuttals and agreements...

Agreements first:

You are correct that this traffic circle and the other in question have failed miserably.

You are also correct that it is too small.

It is also useless as a design feature here.

It would cost a ton to move the light poles, cut the pavement and increase the center islands dimensions, then adjust the approach angles of the two roads, plus also adding the additional signage necessary to make the intersection work.

Now the rebuttals:

Traffic circles do work as a calming measure in several different ways - they encourage people to slow down and yield (when sized properly), and they also maintain a flow of traffic as opposed to a stopping and hitting traffic.

In promoting a flow of traffic they decrease the need for braking and gunning of engines, which create a lot of noise and actually drain more gas, than you will going smoothly through an intersection. (especially in a neighborhood situation such as this.)

They are needed to beautify intersections (I dont think anyone can argue that a red stop sign is attractive compared to a well-landscaped or memorialized traffic cirlce.) If you want an exmple of such wait until Westchester Boulevard is open in the Westchester Commons development in a year or so... (I am not saying the location is right, just the design and implementation)

Lastly the main reason traffic circles fail in America is because they are located in places that have never seen one before. It takes time to adjust driving styles, and this is the perfect example. Europeans have had this much right about their road designs far longer than we have... just give it time.

[burt]

There's a good story in today's inRich about transportation.

http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.apx.-co...11-05-0070.html

Edited November 5, 2007 by burt

[burt]

There is a story in today's inRich about plans to deal with transit in the "sprawling" Metropolitan area between now and 2031. It's in the News section on the second page and maybe because it contains three pdf's I was unsuccessful in posting it. Perhaps one of you can.

Edited November 9, 2007 by burt

[eandslee]

There is a story in today's inRich about plans to deal with transit in the "sprawling" Metropolitan area between now and 2031. It's in the News section on the second page and maybe because it contains three pdf's I was unsuccessful in posting it. Perhaps one of you can.

Here it is for you Burt. The pdf files are listed on this page.

Edited November 10, 2007 by eandslee

[wrldcoupe4]

Thanks to DowntownDave for the heads up....

According to the Richmond Free Press and other sources, a serious proposal for Rapid Bus Transit from Main Street Station along Broad Street to Willow Lawn is in the works. The price tag would come in at around $35 million and would require federal, state and local funding. Buses would run every 10 minutes along the route and utilize the curb lanes (bye bye street parking). Bus operators would have equipment to delay green lights turning red and speed up red lights turning green. This would become a serious precursor to regional light rail. GRTC's CEO has even suggested that GRTC and the RMA merge to create a single regional transit agency that could both manage public transit growth and build needed road infrastructure. The proposal will be presented to City Council in early '08.

It is seen as a "first step toward the creation of a regional system of express bus and light-rail service, which is now under study by the region's transporation planning arm, the Metropolitan Planning Organization."

Edited November 15, 2007 by wrldcoupe4

[burt]

Thanks to DowntownDave for the heads up....

According to the Richmond Free Press and other sources, a serious proposal for Rapid Bus Transit from Main Street Station along Broad Street to Willow Lawn is in the works. The price tag would come in at around $35 million and would require federal, state and local funding. Buses would run every 10 minutes along the route and utilize the curb lanes (bye bye street parking). Bus operators would have equipment to delay green lights turning red and speed up red lights turning green. This would become a serious precursor to regional light rail. GRTC's CEO has even suggested that GRTC and the RMA merge to create a single regional transit agency that could both manage public transit growth and build needed road infrastructure. The proposal will be presented to City Council in early '08.

It is seen as a "first step toward the creation of a regional system of express bus and light-rail service, which is now under study by the region's transporation planning arm, the Metropolitan Planning Organization."

This sounds like a good plan to me -- especially with 10-minute headers between buses.

But if they're going to spend all that money, here are my suggestions -- spend some more and:

Purchase buses with alternate loading and unloading from the left (driver's side) so that median strips as wide as those presently downtown could be on/off stops. Where they do not presently exist, medians would only be needed every three blocks. Conventional right-side loading could be used along Main Street and side streets where medians do not exist. Broad Street buses would be in dedicated left lanes thereby freeing up curb parking spaces.

[burt]

Another possibility worth considering -- especially if fixed rail is in the future -- build this system as trolley buses with overhead wires that could be converted later for rail cars. They are far less polluting than gas-powered vehicles.

Seattle uses them very efficiently as well as other cities in America and around the world.

[Shakman]

I would rather see a light rail system without overhead wires. There is something about overhead clutter that makes an area look disorganized.

[Cadeho]

I... agree? ... with Shakman? The overhead wires would be a thing of the past. We can still have an electric system without them.

I'm not sure about the medians though... Broad St is dangerous enough for pedestrians west of I-95 through to Goochland's line.

[Downtowner]

Yeah I would also love to see all the wires put underground. Imagine a Wireless Rapid Transit. Or imagine Wireless Streetcars and like let the track control the street car without the wires and let the track control in some type of way of maybe a conveyor belt but once it arrives at each station have breaks that make it stop at each station kind of like a roller coaster when it comes back from going up and down hill.

[burt]

I... agree? ... with Shakman? The overhead wires would be a thing of the past. We can still have an electric system without them.

I'm not sure about the medians though... Broad St is dangerous enough for pedestrians west of I-95 through to Goochland's line.

I'm not aware of any NEW light rail projects that have underground power sources. The old street cars in D.C. used to operate with hidden underground trolleys, but the Fed government footed the expensive cost. And I think there are a few lines in other cities that were built that way decades ago and still operate.

The few renderings I have seen of proposed rail service along the Broad Street corridor showed streetcars in center lanes. They still run that way in many cities that have them. They run right down the middle of Market Street in San Francisco, and that is one busy thoroughfare!

[Shakman]

Why worry about wires above or below ground. Have the trains run on magnets. Though it is expensive.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but cities such as Seattle, Detroit and Miami have some form of magnet rail systems?

Having a transit system running through the middle of Broad Street should actually improve on safety. I noticed this when the MTA Light Rail in Baltimore was installed on Howard Street. Basically development makes drivers more aware of their surroundings thus slowing them down. In theory, having another obstacle, especially in the middle of the street, should make drivers even more cautious.

[burt]

Why worry about wires above or below ground. Have the trains run on magnets. Though it is expensive.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but cities such as Seattle, Detroit and Miami have some form of magnet rail systems?

Having a transit system running through the middle of Broad Street should actually improve on safety. I noticed this when the MTA Light Rail in Baltimore was installed on Howard Street. Basically development makes drivers more aware of their surroundings thus slowing them down. In theory, having another obstacle, especially in the middle of the street, should make drivers even more cautious.

Last I was in Miami and Seattle each had monorail systems. But neither was operated as "maglev". Seattle's overhead monorail is about a mile long -- from the old World's Fair grounds to Nordstroms in Center City. Miami's automated system (more of a "people mover") is more extensive but, in my experience, not terribly reliable. Miami also has an even MORE extensive overhead train system -- what we used to call "the El" in NYCity.

Maglev is, IMO, far from being a practical inner city transit system.

FREQUENT service is the ONLY type of transit that will make anybody's suggested system, bus or rail, work. That's not just my opinion, but fact!!!!

[gntrphoo]

I'm not aware of any NEW light rail projects that have underground power sources. The old street cars in D.C. used to operate with hidden underground trolleys, but the Fed government footed the expensive cost. And I think there are a few lines in other cities that were built that way decades ago and still operate.

The few renderings I have seen of proposed rail service along the Broad Street corridor showed streetcars in center lanes. They still run that way in many cities that have them. They run right down the middle of Market Street in San Francisco, and that is one busy thoroughfare!

The new tram line in Paris runs IN the median with above ground wires. The tracks are almost hidden in the grass and the wires are hardly noticable.

[burt]

The new tram line in Paris runs IN the median with above ground wires. The tracks are almost hidden in the grass and the wires are hardly noticable.

Ah, Paris!! Thanks for this pic, gnp.

Maybe in Richmond, overhead wires and tracks in the median.

Is this shot, per chance, in the district encompassing Marais?

Edited November 18, 2007 by burt

[Shakman]

Last I was in Miami and Seattle each had monorail systems. But neither was operated as "maglev". Seattle's overhead monorail is about a mile long -- from the old World's Fair grounds to Nordstroms in Center City. Miami's automated system (more of a "people mover") is more extensive but, in my experience, not terribly reliable. Miami also has an even MORE extensive overhead train system -- what we used to call "the El" in NYCity.

Maglev is, IMO, far from being a practical inner city transit system.

FREQUENT service is the ONLY type of transit that will make anybody's suggested system, bus or rail, work. That's not just my opinion, but fact!!!!

I thought Miami and Seattle ran there system on magnets?

Edited November 19, 2007 by Shakman

[gntrphoo]

Ah, Paris!! Thanks for this pic, gnp.

Maybe in Richmond, overhead wires and tracks in the median.

Is this shot, per chance, in the district encompassing Marais?

It's actually in the south of the city just inside the beltway. Like this one, most of Paris's new transit lines are being built just outside of the historic center of the city and are not physically connected to the traditional metro, although it's free to transfer from the metro to the trams. There is no ticket control at the tram stops - you are basically on your honor to validate your ticket on the tram - a controller checks the tickets every once and a while, but I wonder how much money is lost by free riders. I think this would be a great system for Richmond, although I worry about payment . . . especially since people will expect that the tram pay for its operating costs.

[wrldcoupe4]

10th Street from Canal to Main is being repaved this week. The more streets repaved downtown the better!

[burt]

10th Street from Canal to Main is being repaved this week. The more streets repaved downtown the better!

Amen!!! A lot of downtown streets are a disgrace.

This is , but if anyone has access to the Master Plan report, look at Section 4 called Getting There, go to page 31 and see a rendering of a suggested signature tower for the triangle block at north end of Manchester Bridge. Kewl!

Incidentally, under this plan, the triangle would no longer be a triangle but would be reconfigured to a grid square. Also, Kanawa Plaza would be redesigned with buildings covering most of the park.

[wrldcoupe4]

Amen!!! A lot of downtown streets are a disgrace.

Bank was repaved last week as well. Personally, I'd love to see the east-west streets paved.

[burt]

Bank was repaved last week as well. Personally, I'd love to see the east-west streets paved.

The Master Plan suggests that 10th Street be tree-lined and extend from Bank all the way to an overlook of the James where the ugly outdoor electric plant (NOT the Power Plant) is located just west of ROTJ. It would provide a sort of vista from The James to The Capitol.

[Cadeho]

As said earlier...

REBUILD THE JAMES RIVER & KANAWHA CANAL BETWEEN RICHMOND AND BUCHANAN! They may not be much out there in Buchanan but we can have canal travel lines in new batteaux from GSL Park westward to at least Lynchburg. I've followed the canal bed from satellite and a lot of it west of Tuckahoe Island seem to be a big ditch. I'll try to explore as much as I can sometime soon.

About the streets... they should be repaved or uncovered... one or the other. I think the paving block under Broad have been removed...

And speaking about roads... why is it that all our historic roads have been severed and one can no longer travel them as Washington, Jefferson, Lee etc did? Brook Rd is cut off by I-95, Williamsburg Rd was rerouted through Fulton and also east of Seven Pines and the old stage road at Bottoms Bridge no longer connects to it, Three Chopt has been destroyed through Short Pump westward until Goochland County, Warwick Rd has bypasses etc... not all of this was called for really. It's amazing that roads can also be historic, yet we failed to protect them in such a historic city.

Edited November 29, 2007 by Cadeho

[wrldcoupe4]

As said earlier...

REBUILD THE JAMES RIVER & KANAWHA CANAL BETWEEN RICHMOND AND BUCHANAN! They may not be much out there in Buchanan but we can have canal travel lines in new batteaux from GSL Park westward to at least Lynchburg. I've followed the canal bed from satellite and a lot of it west of Tuckahoe Island seem to be a big ditch. I'll try to explore as much as I can sometime soon.

Let's connect the canals downtown to the Pumphouse first before we even think about rebuilding canals all the way to Buchanan!

[Cadeho]

Well it was built in sections. Maybe if we work on ours, Lynchburg can work on theirs, and maybe the government can help us out with the rest... we don't have slave labor anymore...

[Cadeho]

And speaking about roads... why is it that all our historic roads have been severed and one can no longer travel them as Washington, Jefferson, Lee etc did? Brook Rd is cut off by I-95, Williamsburg Rd was rerouted through Fulton and also east of Seven Pines and the old stage road at Bottoms Bridge no longer connects to it, Three Chopt has been destroyed through Short Pump westward until Goochland County, Warwick Rd has bypasses etc... not all of this was called for really. It's amazing that roads can also be historic, yet we failed to protect them in such a historic city.

I forgot to include Telegraph Rd, which also has been butchered thanks to Brook Road's extension, I-295, and Virginia Center Commons.