Richmond Region Transportation

[jbjust]

If we really wanted it to happen it would be feasible. Why not lay a whole new set of tracts? There sure are enough people looking for jobs at the moment. I'm sure the amount of money that is wasted each year on taxpayer subsidies for Big Oil and other corporate interests would pay for real high speed rail that would profoundly benefit all citizens. Why do we allow corporate interests to constantly trump the public good in this country? It's time for the people to stand up and take the country back.

High Speed Rail Rarely Turns A Profit

[skycity]

Thank you for posting the article. My question is:

Why does it need to turn a profit? It's an investment. It's about quality of life. Filling up my gas tank and then sitting for hours on I-95 sure has an impact on my personal bottom line, but somehow that's OK. In addition, the article talks about how much tourism and other economic activity was generated. This is clearly something the government needs to invest in for the benefit of society because we would all end up making out better economically in the end because of it. The article seems to make it clear that overall it has worked out quite well for Spain. Why does some private interest always have to make a killing off of everything at the expense of the rest of us? (health care comes to mind).

I bet the Erie Canal took a while to pay back its investment, but it sure led to profound and explosive development that never would have been possible without it. Think New York City, Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse with all of their industrial power.

Plus, Amtrak is already losing money. We might just as well invest and replace it with something that will lead to real economic development.

Edited June 3, 2009 by skycity

[heykey4]

High Speed Rail will use the CSX Main Line through Hanover County.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/business/...-223403/271778/

[burt]

High Speed Rail will use the CSX Main Line through Hanover County.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/business/...-223403/271778/

...and thru Ashland. I was hoping for the eastern route but knew in my heart it wouldn't happen.

[Cadeho]

...and thru Ashland. I was hoping for the eastern route but knew in my heart it wouldn't happen.

Why? The other line is curvy and goes nowhere. This route is straighter and more scenic.

[varider]

I heard Richmond is planning on starting LRT around 2015?? I saw on the side of a GRTC something about "mission 2015" as well.. What ya'll got goin' on over there??

&& just curious, what is GRTC's average quarterly ridership?? Here in Hampton Roads it's about 3.5 million..

[wrldcoupe4]

http://ridegrtc.com/mission_2015/index.asp

The link above recaps GRTC's vision for 2015. Obviously, light rail will be highly dependent on funding and demand. I don't think either are where they need to be for it to become a reality, but I'd love to see light rail in Richmond. The first step will be BRT.

In 2007, ridership was nearly 15 million. That evens out to about 3.75 million per quarter... since then, ridership is up. I'm not sure what the numbers were for 2008. http://www.apta.com/media/releases/081007_...eel_winners.cfm

[varider]

Is the "vision rail" part of the "vision 2015" or "vision 2030?" Wow, only two light rail lines? One would think Richmond deserves more than that.. HRT had 3.73 million riders 1st Quarter of '09... It's great that Richmond and HR are finally working towards regional mass transit.. Here is the Plan for HRT just in case your interested..The LRT starter line opens in 2010 and is expected to be extended throughout the area.. Plan includes many light rail spurs, BRT, commuter rail, ferries, express busses, pretty much all the good stuff..

http://www.hamptonroadstransitplan.com/PDF...lank_040109.pdf

[Mobius57]

Yes! I love Light rail! Its the best in downtown commuter transportation!

[burt]

Good News! Virginia to submit bid to the Feds for vast improvement on rails linking Petersburg, Richmond's MSS, Acca Yard, Fredericksburg, thence to Washington.

From today's RTD:

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/stat...-102201/279005/

Unfortunately, there's no mention in this proposal of links to Hampton Roads nor a proposed rebuilt line between Petersburg and Raleigh along the old abandoned Seaboard Air Line trackage.

But with these improvements travel time between MSS and DC's Union Station may be reduced to 90 minutes.

Edited July 9, 2009 by burt

[Shakman]

I am dancing to that music.

Unfortunately I do not think this would come online for at least another decade. As significant as Fort Lee is and will become, I hope I am wrong.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Shakman

[burt]

Good News! Virginia to submit bid to the Feds for vast improvement on rails linking Petersburg, Richmond's MSS, Acca Yard, Fredericksburg, thence to Washington.

From today's RTD:

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/stat...-102201/279005/

Unfortunately, there's no mention in this proposal of links to Hampton Roads nor a proposed rebuilt line between Petersburg and Raleigh along the old abandoned Seaboard Air Line trackage.

But with these improvements travel time between MSS and DC's Union Station may be reduced to 90 minutes.

Hey, Shak: I had forgotten how Ft. Lee's development would benefit from a speeded up Petersburg/Washington train run.

For anyone who's wondering, the present CSX single track rail that runs south from Main Street Station (a/k/a MSS) joins what is now the main north/south line near Bellwood Supply Center. It is that stretch from the interlocking to MSS which passes the Philip Morris plant and parallels Commerce Road that will be upgraded, although additional work will be done on the entire P'burg/Ric line.

.

[burt]

Plan is to build a pair of tracks along the eastern side of Acca Yard to speed passenger service thru Richmond.

From today's RT-D:

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/business...-215206/286142/

[burt]

The State of Virginia hopes to snare funds to begin laying a third rail along the CSX tracks in Prince William and Stafford Counties. This proposed project is shovel-ready.

From today's Style Weekly:

http://styleweekly.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=...A621A7C8148B86D

[burt]

Every time I visit Richmond I make a point of checking bus occupancy and except during rush hours it is rare that any of them are anywhere near filled. In fact, a goodly number of them are completely empty despite GRTC's statement that they carry 40,000 passengers each day.

Why doesn't GRTC go to a jitney system or smaller electric buses on some of the routes?

From today's R-TD:

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/loc...-213806/299187/

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/loc...-222604/299229/

Edited October 14, 2009 by burt

[heykey4]

Hampton Roads leaders come together to get high speed rail from Richmond Main Street Station to Norfolk using the Norfolk Southern tracks from Petersburg to Norfolk.

Here's the article from the Pilot online, http://hamptonroads.com/2009/10/leaders-agree-push-highspeed-rail-norfolk

I wonder, will this put importance, more importance or no importance on a station at Petersburg?

If I read the SEHSR documentation correctly, they are going to use the A-Line from Centralia to Collier Yard in Petersburg, aiming for a new station at Ettrick instead of coming downtown to use Petersburg's Union Station....which, if true, is a shame, but logical. However, if a high speed train is going to branch off and head to Norfolk, what does that mean for routing? Is there a CSX, NS interchange at Collier Yard? Or could they rebuild the tracks at Dunlop in Colonial Heights and come into Downtown Petersburg to access NS tracks?

At the same time, the leaders of our eastern neighbors aim to improve service along the already Richmond-Newport News route. Maybe that means more service to and from Richmond?

Richmond leaders should push for a rail stop at Richmond International Airport as part of any improvements to that Peninsula line.

[burt]

If I understand correctly, rebuilding the old "S" line between Petersburg (Colliet Yard) and Raleigh is in the North Carolina budget for SEHSR. The stretch from Petersburg to Washington is part of Virginia's request to the Feds.

I think there is an interchange at Collier with N&S.

Now that the decision to use the Acca Yard route from MSS rather than the Buckingham line to Doswell I predict there will be a huge hue and cry from Ashlanders about the number of trains passing thru the small town. There will be at least four more round trips Charlotte/DC and as many to and from Norfolk, plus a few to and from Newport News in addition to existing trains. If SEHSR is approved, Ashland will be sorry they insisted on Amtrak service when they could have met their rail needs with a few VRE trains and/or traveled to a new suburban station near US301 and I-295.

And I am VERY doubtful about adapting Main Street Station to such heavy usage.

[orulz]

If I understand correctly, rebuilding the old "S" line between Petersburg (Colliet Yard) and Raleigh is in the North Carolina budget for SEHSR. The stretch from Petersburg to Washington is part of Virginia's request to the Feds.

I think there is an interchange at Collier with N&S

You're right there is an interchange, but it's in the wrong quadrant. A new connection would have to be built, if that is the route they choose. I think it is still possible, though unlikely, that they'll choose to rebuild the old ACL main through Colonial Heights and downtown Petersburg for Norfolk-boud trains - that decision hasn't been made yet.

Now that the decision to use the Acca Yard route from MSS rather than the Buckingham line to Doswell I predict there will be a huge hue and cry from Ashlanders about the number of trains passing thru the small town. There will be at least four more round trips Charlotte/DC and as many to and from Norfolk, plus a few to and from Newport News in addition to existing trains. If SEHSR is approved, Ashland will be sorry they insisted on Amtrak service when they could have met their rail needs with a few VRE trains and/or traveled to a new suburban station near US301 and I-295.

I agree, I worry that Ashland's insistence on maintaining service to its downtown station will be a thorn in the side of the HSR efforts of Virginia and points south for years to come. Eventually, the street running in Ashland will have be bypassed or trenched, probably at least a half billion dollar project either way.

And I am VERY doubtful about adapting Main Street Station to such heavy usage.

First of all, I imagine the Florida trains stick to the A line and only serve the Richmond suburban station (Staples Mill will be closed and a new one built) rather than being moved to Main Street. So I don't think we need to consider these trains when considering Main Street Station.

Now, what really causes operational troubles would be trains that terminate at Richmond. Those tend to occupy the platforms for a long time, need to back in or out, change out crews, etc. I would argue that when all three corridors (for NPN, Norfolk, and Raleigh) are up and running, there will no longer be any trains that terminate at Richmond.

Figure 4 round trips per day on each corridor: 4 to Raleigh, 4 to NPN, 4 to Norfolk. That's 12 round trips a day, all of them through trains. If the schedules are staggered somewhat (leave 30 minutes padding between trains) capacity at Main Street should not be an issue.

[heykey4]

Sadly, the best option may be to use Broad Street Station. In an ideal world....or maybe a fantasy world, could the Science Museum and a train depot occupy the same building?

Granted, even in this fantasy world I speak of, the rail loop that made Broad Street Station so accessible for ACL and RF&P trains would have to be reconstructed.

In reality, a new rail station at Staples Mill seems to be the most logical.

[wrldcoupe4]

The old train station just on the southern end of the Mayo bridge is undergoing restoration. I believe its called the Old Dominion Railway Museum.

[orulz]

Broad Street station is not even under consideration, as far as I know, since it is less central than Main Street, already houses the museum, and the loop is gone.

Richmond will have two stations: Main Street, plus one in the northern suburbs. Current plans call for putting the new northern station at Parham Road.

I don't see why you guys are so skeptical about MSS handling the traffic. It shouldn't be a problem. Eventually all trains to Richmond from Washington will continue on as through trains, to one of the 3 destinations (NPN, Norfolk, or Raleigh.) That plus the fact that level boarding is now required by ADA, means each train will only dwell on the platform for an absolute maximum of 5 minutes. No big deal.

[heykey4]

Broad Street station is not even under consideration, as far as I know, since it is less central than Main Street, already houses the museum, and the loop is gone.

Richmond will have two stations: Main Street, plus one in the northern suburbs. Current plans call for putting the new northern station at Parham Road.

I don't see why you guys are so skeptical about MSS handling the traffic. It shouldn't be a problem. Eventually all trains to Richmond from Washington will continue on as through trains, to one of the 3 destinations (NPN, Norfolk, or Raleigh.) That plus the fact that level boarding is now required by ADA, means each train will only dwell on the platform for an absolute maximum of 5 minutes. No big deal.

No, Broad Street Station being used is fantasy world talk, but it would be neat in my opinion.

Here's some pictures of the Hull Street Station renovation by the Old Dominion Chapter of the NRHS: http://www.odcnrhs.org/Museumproject.htm

My reservations about MSS for High Speed Rail are that trains will have to go through Acca. Now, I believe I read recently that a bypass would be built for passenger traffic through Acca, is that correct? I'd love to see MSS used like they want to, but I'm not sold yet.

I'm intrigued about the new station at Parham Road.

[burt]

Orulz, there is a wonderful book called VIRGINIA RAILWAY DEPOTS by Donald R. Taser. I've had it for years, but I believe Ich4 got a copy thru Amazon for about ten bucks. Main Street Station is covered on pages 34 thru 37.

Here is some info on MSS:

"...the shed is 550 feet long" and contained "4 stub ends with a through track on each side entering the shed at the south end and exiting at the north.

"Two C&O main tracks passed on the east, incorporated into the platform structure, with one Seaboard main on the west. A second Seaboard track was added in 1941 to relieve congestion when trains were stopped at the station.

"Increased traffic, longer trains and heavier locomotives rendered Main Street Station obsolete almost from the beginning."

There is a rendering of a pretty horrible replacement station that was never constructed several hundred feet north of Broad Street.

My comments laced with doubts for the future: The shed was converted to ground and upper level retail use in the 1980's and had all its underpinnings removed save for the trestles east and west. Present plans by the local transit company (GRTC) are to turn the shed into a bus transfer facility. Also, nearby archeological digs and hopes for a National Slave Museum abutting the western (Seaboard) trestle, while a boon for tourism, pretty much limits rail expansion at the depot.

Now for the positives: The Port of Richmond, about 10 miles south on the James River is steadily losing boat traffic. Several years ago, port management offered its considerable trackage as a turn-around/storage facility for trains terminating and originating in Richmond. My personal belief is that such trains will not be discontinued if space can be found at Deepwater Terminal, C&O yards and/or Acca. Also, everything I've heard includes stops at MSS for all Florida trains.

As for Ashland, your compilation of 8 daily RT's Raleigh, 8 Norfolk, 8 Newport News, 6 Florida and (my guess) 4 Richmond/Northeast totals 32 passenger trains rumbling along Railroad Avenue in Ashland -- more than twice present traffic if The Auto Train is included.

My fantasy! Run all east coast trains up and down the I-95/I-85 corridors.

PS: Until very recent years, the untra first-class tourist train that periodically toured various areas of the country stopped and parked over-night on a still existing track at Broad Street Station. There is a mostly unused single track from the main line that can be seen in the parking lot of Bow Tie cineplex.

I couldn't believe my eyes about four years ago when I was in Richmond and went to the Science Museum (BSS.) Looking over the parapet to the old train sheds I saw this incredible "Orient Express" type train parked on the furtherest track. I crawled down the embankment and walked the full length of this amazing sight. I later larned that it was at least an annual occurrence until the company went bankrupt.

Edited November 7, 2009 by burt

[burt]

Orulz, many thanks for the Parham Road link about HSR. I'm getting ready to read it as soon as I can get some time.

[burt]

No, Broad Street Station being used is fantasy world talk, but it would be neat in my opinion.

Here's some pictures of the Hull Street Station renovation by the Old Dominion Chapter of the NRHS: http://www.odcnrhs.org/Museumproject.htm

My reservations about MSS for High Speed Rail are that trains will have to go through Acca. Now, I believe I read recently that a bypass would be built for passenger traffic through Acca, is that correct? I'd love to see MSS used like they want to, but I'm not sold yet.

I'm intrigued about the new station at Parham Road.

Ich4, thanks for the link to Hull Street Station and to Wrldcoupe4 for inspiring you to post it. Note that the track nearest the station platform has been removed. In my long ago youth, I know at least one Southern Railway roundtrip to and from Danville operated from the station.

If (and it's a BIG if) The Trans Dominion Express between Bristol and Richmond ever becomes reality, two daily RT's via Norfolk/Southern would pass by Hull Street Station enroute to MSS via a newly constructed connector to CSX south of the James. In an ideal world, the consists could overnight at Deep Water Terminal trackage. And poor old Ashland wouldn't have to worry about four more trains passing through.

PS: If my railway terminology is correct, "CONsists" refers to an entire train.

Edited November 8, 2009 by burt