Which Should come first? Residential or Commerce?

[asonj23]

So which scenario rings true more often?

1. If you create a commercial/retail market in an area the residences will follow.

2. If you create a residential market in an area the commercial/retail

establishments will follow.

That seems to be both approaches to the downtown development. For example:

some think that upgrading the Jacksonville Landing and creating a destination will

spawn the necessary residential growth to support the commerce/retail. Some

believe the opposite.

How can pioneer commercial/retail establishments (with the mindset of creating

a "destination") keep the doors open if there is no local buisness to support it?

How can the creation of residential units spawn growth when there is no

adjacent "destination" to influence any pioneer residents to call it home?

I'm just wondering what everyone's take is on this.

[Topher1]

In general, the residential population must be there to support commercial development. However, if the commercial development is targeted as a "destination" for a larger region, it makes good sense to develop it in a less populated area. In the example you gave of Jacksonville Landing, that site is enough of a destination to attract suburbanites who may not care to live downtown. Of course, seeing these amenities downtown may very well lead to increased residentail demand, but even without an increased downtown population, the Landing should still be able to attract enough business.

An example in Florida of residential following retail is the city of Aventura in South Florida. There wasn't much to the city before the mega-mall was built. However, just look at the residential that was spawned, in large part, by the massive amounts of area retail. The city of Aventura today probably has more people living in high-rises than any other type of development.

[Urban_Legend]

I think it's 50/50, give and take. If you want a true urban area, with commercial services as well as caf

[miamistreets]

I think residential comes first because if you put markets or stores and there's hardly any customers,the stores might leave.Residency would be first with small stores.Then build houses,to then attract commerce.(that's what i think)

But i dont know anything cause I got that idea from Sim City.

I think Miami may be doing that.That they're building a lot of residential(in the downtown) and then commerce might come.

[asonj23]

I would have to agree that in a non developed area there would definitely have to be some base population to support any commerce. But when talking about the revitalization of a downtown area to re-create a true downtown neighborhood I would think there would have to be something to lure in potential residents. By creating a destination place within the downtown core a city could then expect the population to follow, right? But it doesn't always seem to work that way.

Take Jacksonville, for example (I know I'm biased, but hey, it's all I got). The Landing was built in the early 90's if I'm not mistaken. It did very little to help to revitalize what used to be a super urban city core. I know it would be crazy to suggest that a mall downtown could single handedly save downtown, but a nice destination was created and there are still places going out of buisness. Now all most all of a sudden the downtown cores of nearly every city major in the southeast is experiencing rapid urban growth. What happened?? When did people all of a sudden wake up and realize "hey, it's more convenient to live downtown"?? I can't say it's the Super Bowl (in Jax's case) because it's nearly the entire southeast. Whatever it is, I hope that the trend continues and moves are made to keep it that way.

Now to stop my rambling and get back to the point. In the downtown cores of the major Florida cities, what seemed to spawn the growth; a commercial/retail destination? Or a sudden change of mind that people can and should live downtown?

[Aessotariq]

In Miami and South Florida in general, I'm sure much of the allure has to do with people who are fed up with the traffic. Downtown Miami in particular has had pretty good mom-and-pop retail district for many years, one that primarily serves downtown workers but now also serves a lot of visitors (esp. international visitors). Bayside (Miami's counterpart to the Landing) also attracts a lot of tourists and locals. It's a chicken and egg situation -- I say you must do a bit of both (to echo what's already been said) -- build some retail and entertainment amenities that can appeal regionally to outsiders but also be appealing enough to entice someone who might want to live there, and then build residential so that the people can move in to support the local businesses when the outsiders go back home. We'll see if that formula works down here, once people start moving into all of these projects they're building.

[Aessotariq]

An example in Florida of residential following retail is the city of Aventura in South Florida.  There wasn't much to the city before the mega-mall was built.  However, just look at the residential that was spawned, in large part, by the massive amounts of area retail.  The city of Aventura today probably has more people living in high-rises than any other type of development.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aventura is an interesting anomaly. The City of Aventura would never have come into existence if it weren't for the mall and the Turnberry Isle Resort & Club directly east of it. The mall came in the early 1980s (83-84ish), and most of the area was submerged land that was purchased by Turnberry Associates and developed into condos (Turnberry also built the mall). Most of Aventura's condos are built facing the country club and the water. It wasn't incorporated as a city until 1995. Usually cities come first and the malls are named after the cities they are located in; Aventura was named after the Aventura Mall.

[Urban_Legend]

BTW, the Landing was built in '87.