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Raleigh's Fayetteville Street

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Why is this going to be a "bridge" but a non-plaza Fayetville Street through (or the Plensa project) were not?

Will there be another "bridge" over the Marriott parking deck in the lower half of the block? Does the existing plaza/parking deck roof not support traffic? I think $10 million is a lot to exend F Street through this plaza, over the Marriott/Site 1 deck and through Sites 2 and 3 to South Street. Why wasn't the Marriott half block's street included in the cost of building the deck itself?

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Didn't the first 3 or 4 blocks of Fayetteville Street cost only $10 million? <_<

Now I do understand that the (1) block of land/plaza is currently unable to support moving vehicles and must be changed to support a lot of weight, but $10 million for that? And then another $10+ million for removing old bricks and replacing it with cement/brick/etc., adding sculpture and a couple of out parcel buildings?

Please believe me when I say "I want this block of Fayetteville Street to look good". :thumbsup:

But I hope that the city won't have to pay for all of this part, maybe owners of the one and two Hanover buildings could chip in a little? If these couple of out parcels are to be built then they could be built like anywhere else in North Raleigh. If I am correct Boston Market/Chick Filet etc. does pay to build there own building? :blink:

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The economic conservative crowd has been interesting here. It's not like this is the federal government, or income taxes, or a welfare system. This is mostly small-scale microeconomic utilities. There really aren't comparable private services to replace these projects, so what is the complaint?

At this point, folks like Craven are probably just (1) trying to piss-off the mayor and (2) win the 'why are we spending so many tax dollars downtown?' and the 'no-tax-increases-at-all-costs' voting public. The tax increase COULD come budget time as I believe only $10M had previously been allocated to extending F-St. Craven has consistenly voted aginst projects like F-St and the RCC and proposed other uses for the money such as schools and roads, even though (a) they aren't eligible and (b) schools are the county's domain.

Why is this going to be a "bridge" but a non-plaza Fayetteville Street through (or the Plensa project) were not?

Will there be another "bridge" over the Marriott parking deck in the lower half of the block? Does the existing plaza/parking deck roof not support traffic? I think $10 million is a lot to exend F Street through this plaza, over the Marriott/Site 1 deck and through Sites 2 and 3 to South Street. Why wasn't the Marriott half block's street included in the cost of building the deck itself?

Good question. The Marriott/city underground deck is being built to accomodate the traffic loading above, whereas the existing Hannover deck never was built to hold traffic. The $10M-->21M increase could just be revised estimates--geez I hope not. I'm not sure how the costs break down, but I think the city deck is $43M and probably some of the basic road cost is embedded in that figure... probably a good question for the city manager's office or worth looking up in the FY07 budget.

I was down there today, and the whole site from the city/Marriott underground deck to the marriott to the RCC site is pretty much one big construction area. You'd never know that it's actually three separately funded projects. I'm sure the city manager was creative in how the costs were divided between them.

The city deck is coming along nicely--almost up to plaza level at Marriott site, 2-3 stories to go mid-block (beneath future F-St).

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Here are some new renderings of the proposed plaza at the end of Fayetteville St. This plan is hot to death!! This will do wonders for that section of Fayetteville St. This plan IMHO is far superior to Plensa's LED wires. It is truly amazing how far Downtown Raleigh has come in a few short years. I moved here a little over 2 years ago and the differences between then and now are truly amazing. :yahoo:

All photos are Courtesy of Raleigh-NC of SSC (owner of Raleighmsa.com) and the Raleigh Urban Design Center. Enjoy.

CityPlaza-RaleighNC-1m.jpg

CityPlaza-RaleighNC-2m.jpg

CityPlaza-RaleighNC-3m.jpg

CityPlaza-RaleighNC-4m.jpg

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I like the design very much. When i heard about the possibility of a video screen in the plaza i was almost shocked. It appears to be in those renderings on site 1 and it just impresses me. I've always been a fan of outdoor video monitors (times square is heaven) probably because i am a tech guy. Can you imagine this plaza on day's like new year's eve, alive after 5? with this and the wireless internet this plaza will help Raleigh become a very modern city. you'll see me hanging out around the plaza in my spare time. :shades:

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Here are some new renderings of the proposed plaza at the end of Fayetteville St. This plan is hot to death!! This will do wonders for that section of Fayetteville St. This plan IMHO is far superior to Plensa's LED wires. It is truly amazing how far Downtown Raleigh has come in a few short years. I moved here a little over 2 years ago and the differences between then and now are truly amazing. :yahoo:

All photos are Courtesy of Raleigh-NC of SSC (owner of Raleighmsa.com) and the Raleigh Urban Design Center. Enjoy.

CityPlaza-RaleighNC-1m.jpg

CityPlaza-RaleighNC-2m.jpg

CityPlaza-RaleighNC-3m.jpg

CityPlaza-RaleighNC-4m.jpg

Bump.....

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I like the concept a lot. It would be interesting to add some color and designs to the pavers ala mosaics etc. The cheeseball Rocky image is odd.

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If you look in the bottom right of the last photo you'll see a miniature sculpture of the 4 large (presumably) lighting sculptures. Going back to the first photo (the night one), the street is delineated by some lighting features. Apparently the miniatures are those lighting fixtures.

Sure looks like a runway to me. I hope the VFR air traffic won't get confused. :D

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N&O article on City Plaza.

The cost is estimated at $21 million.

The latest proposal, which received initial approval from the City Council last month, calls for any future art installation in the plaza to be temporary. Dan Douglas, director of Raleigh's Urban Design Center, said the current design is about creating flexible ways to use the space.

Douglas said the idea is that 30 to 40 times a year the plaza can be closed to cars and reconfigured to host parades, markets or concerts. The city plans to run power lines, phone lines and water pipes under the plaza floor so merchants could set up shop temporarily. The lighting and other technical aspects of the plaza will be operated from a central control room.

"The floor of this plaza will be like the floor of a convention center," Douglas said.

...

The current plaza design has its critics, including council members Philip Isley and Tommy Craven, both of whom voted against the initial design last month.

"There are 21 million reasons I voted against it," Isley said.

City Manager Russell Allen said the city will likely pay for the project using certificates of participation, a type of financing used on major infrastructure projects.

The city's goal is to have the plaza completed by July 1, 2008, when the Marriott Hotel is expected to open on the plaza's northeast corner. The City Council will review a detailed design proposal for the plaza on April 17.

I've said it before, but the city ignored Downtown Raleigh for 30 years, and it's time for some payback... and it's not like the investment won't reap dividends. Sites 2 & 3 will be developed in the near future as well.

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I like the plaza design. It seems like a very welcome and usable space. But what it really needs in order to succeed... is more retail on the ground floor of 1 & 2 Hanover. Without that, even the fanciest and most expensive design would still result in a dead street.

I hope the city has lined up tenants for the little booths that are going in there. It would look really bad if those booths just sat around empty.

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The current plaza design has its critics, including council members Philip Isley and Tommy Craven, both of whom voted against the initial design last month.

"There are 21 million reasons I voted against it," Isley said.

:rofl:

You have to give it to them. They're consistent. Anyway, I love to plan. I'm curious as to what a "Certificate of Participation" is...

Edited by dombalis

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Here is a good definition concerning state-issued COPS:

Certificates of participation represent a form of financing often used by municipal or government entities for capital projects. Investors purchase a share of the revenue from a lease arrangement, rather than the bond being secured by that revenue. Unlike general obligations bonds, the state can issue these without a public referendum.

They usually have higher interest rates, but can be good in cases where a GO bond is not feasible, for whatever reason.

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I like the plaza design. It seems like a very welcome and usable space. But what it really needs in order to succeed... is more retail on the ground floor of 1 & 2 Hanover. Without that, even the fanciest and most expensive design would still result in a dead street.

I hope the city has lined up tenants for the little booths that are going in there. It would look really bad if those booths just sat around empty.

From the city website:


  • The plaza should be smartly designed to support opportunities for ground-level uses. For example, the schematic design proposes retail pavilions on the edge of the plaza that encourage people to linger. The Simpson Organization, the owner of the Bank of America building in the plaza area, has committed to design, build, lease and manage the pavilions;
  • The plaza design should “encourage” entrepreneurs because properties adjacent to the plaza potentially contain approximately 45,000 square feet of new retail and restaurant space. For those entrepreneurs who are not ready to lease built space, the plaza will allow for market tents and vendors without having to close the street to traffic;

You are exactly correct though about retail, but the planning dept knows that too, and are doing whatever they can to make that a reality.

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i don't see how any retail can go in to hanover 1 & 2, those two buildings (including Progress Plaza) aren't really set up for that. It will be interesting to see how they try and use those buildings instead of just banks.

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I don't think the retail is actually going in those buildings. There are new "pavillions" being built in front of the buildings to house the retail.

Edited by Damien

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The pavillions will be like the carts in the center of most malls -- small spaces for retailers who can't afford and/or justify a few hundred feet of retail space.

As for the existing buildings, there already is a convenience store in BoA/One Hannover on the F Street side close to Site 1.

They have also been doing some upfitting of the lobby area to make room for a restaurant in the middle of the F Street front.

The Bar in the Sheraton lobby could be reconfigured to face City Square as well. Currently there is an outside patio under the hotel's upper floors. Progress Energy I's south side could be opened up as well to support retail.

If the Sheraton's check in was moved from its current location to F Street level, the wasted space between Two Hannover's meeting rooms and the hotel could be reconfigured for retail space as well.

The Marriott and Site 1 will be on the south side of City Square, adding the potential for even more retail space.

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Some of the pretty sidewalks along Fayetteville St are being damaged by big trucks parking on them. I've seen it first hand at the revenue bulding on Morgan st, where they are renovating... there are trucks parked on the sidewalk everyday over there.

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BTW, the city council voted to spend $1.46M on preliminary work for the phase 2 extension. I think there were some advantages to doing some of the work related to waterproofing the Hanover deck while they are working on the new underground deck next door. The heftier bill will have to come later: the approval of funds for the plaza and the remainder of the street.

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Here's a WRAL story on City Plaza. They say the public has a chance to weigh in, but I haven't seen any meeting's announced yet. It's a more refined version of what we've already seen. There is a race to be able to finish this before the hotel is finished next year.

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