Raleigh's Fayetteville Street

[ChiefJoJo]

The Planning Dept is presenting the revised design for City Plaza to the council today at around 1:30 or so. If they approve, the consultant will move forward with the plaza design *and* the design/construction for the extended Fayetteville St. I have no idea if it has been determined whether it will extend to Lenior or South St. The construction must be done by the date the hotel opens per city agreements with the Marriott developer.

1. City Plaza Design Development Update

The design team for the public space currently called City Plaza between the One Bank of America Plaza building and Two Hannover Square along the Fayetteville Street corridor has completed the design development phase for this project and for associated projects (Fayetteville Street Phase 2, public spaces to the north and south of Fayetteville Street adjacent to Site #1 and the new Marriott hotel, and the Lenoir-South two-way conversion) and will make a presentation at the Council meeting. Backup material is in the Council packet.

Recommendations:

a. Approve the design development drawings and authorize Kimley-Horn and Associates to complete construction drawings for City Plaza, for Fayetteville Street Phase 2, for the public spaces to the north and south of Fayetteville Street adjacent to the Marriott Hotel and Site 1, and for the Lenoir-South two-way conversion;

b. Approve a contract amendment with Kimley-Horn and Associates in the amount of $1,180,000 for completion of construction drawings and construction oversight for the south end projects noted above.

c. Approve the financing plan for the south end projects, utilizing $632,080 from the Convention Center budget, the proceeds of the 2/3 bonds issued in 2006, and Certificates of Participation as per the debt model attached.

d. Authorize the commencement of construction, in accordance with normal bidding procedures, upon completion of construction drawings for City Plaza (subject to Council approval of a revised easement agreement with TSO Fayetteville atop the Hannover Square Parking Structure), Fayetteville Street Phase 2, the public space to the south of Fayetteville Street adjacent to the Marriott Hotel, and the Lenoir-South two-way conversion (subject to the normal City public input process for transportation improvements). Construction authorization for the plaza area adjacent to Site #1 will be requested in conjunction with approval of the final cost arrangements with the developer of the Site #1 parking structure.

e. Authorize City staff to prepare a management agreement for City Plaza with the Downtown Raleigh Alliance to be approved by Council and executed prior to opening of the plaza.

[Beth Y]

If ya'll are behind the redesign of City Plaza, I urge you to call your Councilor and let them know, or better, go down to Council meeting today and show your support. There are rumors going round that, despite the fact that their has been lots of work, including public input, on this plaza and that the City has had numerous experts (urban designers, engineers, lighting designers, artists, etc)involved, that Stephenson and Crowder are going to come in to Council today with their own redesign of the proposal that they came up with last week. To me, this is the height of arrogance. To come in, after people who are experts in their various fields have worked a long time on a project, to come in, after spending a few hours on it and say "I know better than all you people and I am on Council, so I get to change it"....I don't know...just burns me up.

Although I disagree with Isley and Craven that they should not support the project, since it cost too much, I can understand that position. It makes sense. I think the money is worth spending to make downtown what it needs to be for the future of Raleigh. But I could understand how someone could disagree. But I don't understand how you can come in and say "I am not going to vote for it because I think I could design it better." Pure ego to me.

Okay, I have vented....I feel better now.

[ncwebguy]

Is it City Plaza, or Crowder/Stephenson Plaza?

They had every opportunity to be part of the design process. Was Crowder at the big brainstorming meeting a few months ago?

I liked elements of Plensa's proposal and was sad that his "canvas" was changed because the "F street must go throug unimpeded" and he was not given a chance to work with those parameters vs. the "between Hannover One and Two" he was given.

After that and the defeat of the chandeliers, I was nervous about the future of the corridor, but the City Plaza process gave me hope. Getting a variety of experts in various discipines with ties to the area would produce something the community could feel they were part of instead of having something thrust on them.

If this is rejected and replaced with some other proposal, the people who worked hard to give their input into City Plaza may feel their time was of no value and would be reluctant to support future projects. Changing the plan because "they know better" is bad enough. But if they are trying to skimp on this area (where most out of town guests will see for decades) in order to provide more funds for their Hillsborough Street roundabouts, there should be a price to pay at the ballot box this fall.

[ChiefJoJo]

^^ I don't know where that rumor came from--apparently its false. I watched it, and Crowder and Stephen both openly supported the new plaza design.

Isley and Taliaferro liked the design but had serious questions about the financing plan, which would use previously approved bonds, and certificates of participation (COPs) and some other sources to fund the rest. City Manager recommended using sale of Site 4 and 301 Hillsborough to help fund this project.

City Plaza cost.........................................$11.5M

Fayetteville St phase 2 +

South/Lenior St 2 way conversion +

pedestrian connection from RCC to F St...$9.8M

total.......................................................$21.3M

Construction would begin Sept 2007 and be complete by July 1, 2008 along with RCC and Marriott Hotel.

BTW, the Mayor was exused from this item because of conflict of interest on the issue (his law firm represents BofA owners) , so he cannot vote. That means they need to find another vote to pass this.

Plenty of local support on this... folks who stood up and spoke in support, etc.

They basically delayed the decision for two weeks to work out the budget issues and minor design questions. I got the impression everyone knows we have to extend F St, liked the process, the design, everything except parting with the $21.3M in cash of course. So we'll see if they try and whittle this thing down and erode the attractive elements of this project. We shall see...

[DanRNC]

It looks like Kimley-Horn will relocate its offices from Cary to the Capital Bank Plaza on F-Street. I think they will lease around 11,000 sq. ft.

[ncwebguy]

It is good that there was no last second plan suggested! I hope they don't nickle and dime this to death though. Did they say if F Street phase II will go to Lenoir or South street? I guess that goes to South Street, since if is just Lenoir, that number is high. That block of F Street will be built on top of the hotel deck already under construction and designed to support F Street.

How much money will the sale of Site 4 and 301 Hillsborough generate? I don't think that adds up to $20 million, but I could be wrong. Is there any plans for the money from the sales of sites 2 and 3? Pay off debt from the underground parking deck, CC, etc?

I know it isn't guaranteed, but the hotel occupancy tax revenue will be going up with the new hotels, conventions, etc. Can that projected revenue help fund this project?

[RALNATIVE]

It looks like Kimley-Horn will relocate its offices from Cary to the Capital Bank Plaza on F-Street. I think they will lease around 11,000 sq. ft.

It would be great if we could get the Pantry to consider relocating it's HQ to DT Raleigh instead of Cary. They are now a F500 company.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

It would be great if we could get the Pantry to consider relocating it's HQ to DT Raleigh instead of Cary. They are now a F500 company.

Ain't gonna happen, unfortunately!

What I read was that the group took a vote and because most people who work for them live in Western Wake, (Cary area), then that's where they decided to move. A shorter driving time for them is most important, I guess. It doesn't sound like they are at all interested in pride from having there name on a downtown building. Sad!!

[Beth Y]

I don't know where that rumor came from--apparently its false. I watched it, and Crowder and Stephen both openly supported the new plaza design.

Well, actually, they do have a revision, that Russ and Thomas both mentioned. As Russ said, "Frank Harmon has taken a look at this" and they want to put trellises with "decidous plants" connecting the various parts of the plaza. It is unclear what this exactly means. It is interesting to me that both of them had a problem before, saying it was too "busy" and now that is is very simple, they want to add a bunch of trellises?

I think Isley and Taliaferro did a great job of avoiding this thing going south, by spelling out, up front, that there were three main decisions that Council had to make (do we need the road through, do we like this design, can we afford it) that allowed the issues to be dealt with in a logical manner. Isley also said up front that he supported the design. Today, they answered "yes" to the first two questions and put the third to their next meeting.

It was not really clear, but I understood West to say, when the vote was called for the design portion, that councilors could "work with the design team" to make changes. It was not clear to anyone in the hall afterward what that meant.

So, it WAS a big step forward today, but the money portion is a big if. I REALLY want this to happen, but I can't blame them for asking for a more complete budget.

[ChiefJoJo]

Well, actually, they do have a revision, that Russ and Thomas both mentioned. As Russ said, "Frank Harmon has taken a look at this" and they want to put trellises with "decidous plants" connecting the various parts of the plaza. It is unclear what this exactly means. It is interesting to me that both of them had a problem before, saying it was too "busy" and now that is is very simple, they want to add a bunch of trellises?

I think Isley and Taliaferro did a great job of avoiding this thing going south, by spelling out, up front, that there were three main decisions that Council had to make (do we need the road through, do we like this design, can we afford it) that allowed the issues to be dealt with in a logical manner. Isley also said up front that he supported the design. Today, they answered "yes" to the first two questions and put the third to their next meeting.

It was not really clear, but I understood West to say, when the vote was called for the design portion, that councilors could "work with the design team" to make changes. It was not clear to anyone in the hall afterward what that meant.

So, it WAS a big step forward today, but the money portion is a big if. I REALLY want this to happen, but I can't blame them for asking for a more complete budget.

I recall the mention of trellises, but describing that as a "redesign" isn't quite accurate. Also the entire council would have to approve any changes, so we'll see where it goes from here.

As far as Isley and Taliaferro go, I'm not clear whether their concerns were on the financing side or the cost side. The fact they like the design leads me to believe something will be approved, but the concerns over a seemingly solid financing plan lead me to believe that some value engineering will be done--although the design team said it had been done already. If they just need more information on the financing side, such as how much the city will get from the 301 H and Site 4 sales, then maybe we'll be OK. Personally, after all this talk about what to do with the plaza, I'm ready to see some concrete and dirt start moving ASAP.

[Beth Y]

I'm not clear whether their concerns were on the financing side or the cost side

I think it is some of both. I hear they want to see some cost numbers that are more fleshed out.... more than just a total, which is all they were given today. They have to answer to the money spent and don't want to have to answer later to "why did you spend x on x" unless they know they are doing it. Also, on the financing side, it sounded, from Russell's explanation, like a lot of different sources are being cobbled together to make this happen. I think some are uncomfortable with that, without more information. LIke I said, I really want to see this happen and soon, and I think it would be a mistake not to move this forward, but I can certainly understand wanting to make sure the financing source was solid.

[ChiefJoJo]

Here's the N&O's take on the meeting. Upon reflection, it would have been wise for the manager to go into more detail of the funding sources and details of the costs for the plaza and street. He should have expected that there would be questions about the details with $21M at stake.

[ncwebguy]

I don't see how extending F Street to *Lenoir* and two-waying South and Lenoir will cost $11 million. No *dirt* will have to be moved, since most of this stretch are on the Hannover and Hotel/Site 1 parking decks.

It shouldn't take as long to do this stretch vs. the F Street reopening since utilities, etc won't have to be moved. But if they want to make the 2008 CC opening, they need to get the bidding process started soon. I don't think the Isley/Jesse T "other city projects" will be affected since none of them were to be suppored by the sale of downtown property. The last road bond package had little to no cash for ITB projects, so position this as downtown getting its share.

[dmccall]

If F street is cool, really cool for convention-goers, wouldn't the added tax and visitor money from these people give us more money for "other city projects"???

As nice as the Four Seasons Convention Center is, for example, would you really want to take your convention there, to a mall parking lot, or a really cool place with nightlife and good, interesting restaurants nearby??? IF , on the other hand, F St. is something very mundane, we don't get the tourist funds.

[RaleighRick]

If F street is cool, really cool for convention-goers, wouldn't the added tax and visitor money from these people give us more money for "other city projects"???

Don't go trying to insert logic and rational thinking into the process. This is a city government project.

[Jones_]

If F street is cool, really cool for convention-goers, wouldn't the added tax and visitor money from these people give us more money for "other city projects"???

As nice as the Four Seasons Convention Center is, for example, would you really want to take your convention there, to a mall parking lot, or a really cool place with nightlife and good, interesting restaurants nearby??? IF , on the other hand, F St. is something very mundane, we don't get the tourist funds.

Having done a decent amount of travel for training in past several years (dozen trips over half dozen years) I have really realized how important it is to be able to walk out of your hotel and have some interesting sh&% to do. Orlando...sounds nice....but I could easily walk to a Popeyes and that was about it. Atlanta...the Underground is ok but smells of touristy fake spot. San Antonio...they fool you with the River Walk...its nice, until you realize thats all there is. Alexandria was awesome though with block after block of interesting stores, restaurants, old houses, little museums and the Metro nearby to whisk you away to D.C. Having our Convention Center downtown not only is important bringing life back downtown but I think essential for the survival of the Center itself...places get reputations as being great for conventions or sucking. As much as the anti-center people hate it, it will generate more visitor revenue to help pay for itself, plus be a boon to businesses large and small, and Fayetteville street has to be the spine where all this takes place....

[ncwebguy]

I've only been to three conventions in my career -- DC, NYC, and Chicago -- so I've never been to a "bad" one.

That being said, the surroundings of other area meeting space leaves a lot to be desired. North Raleigh Hilton? Sheraton RTP? Even the Durham Marriott *as it is now*. There is American Tobacco and Brightleaf, but the Marriott has a "moat" between it and those hubs with no "drawbridge". I think the street realignment and Greenfire's developments will help, but that kind of planning has to happen *now*.

The models for this are Las Vegas and pre-Katrina New Orelans. People will look past a lot of other things (desert heat, delta humidity) if there is enough "other" stuff to do and see. The Triangle isn't going to be the "next" one of those, but if it can establish the right mix of work and play, the area can create its own niche.

The same goes for Raleigh and the CC. Memorial Auditorium is nice and all, but how many conventioneers will go to something there? As opposed to a fun/memorable restaurant, coffee shop, store, jazz bar, rock club, revival movie house, etc. City Plaza is a piece of this puzzle, but it is only one piece. Done right, it will be a magnentizing center piece that helps everything else fall into place. Done wrong (old CC, F Street Mall), it is an anti-magnet that repels visitors.

[ChiefJoJo]

Did they say if F Street phase II will go to Lenoir or South street? I guess that goes to South Street, since if is just Lenoir, that number is high.

The current design extends to Lenoir. According to city planning, the extension to South St depends on a future RFP for sites 2 & 3, which is anticipated in ~12 months. The development proposals may present a street extension or a plaza, or some other type of arrangement.

[DanRNC]

There should have been a strategic plan to recruit new business to the street with a focus on specific retail and other businesses in conjunction with the Raleigh Chamber of Commerce. It seems like this whole project has been a haphazard gamish stifled by backwards thinking/shortsighted Council members. I have never seen such incompetent leadership as I have seen in Raleigh. I think Meeker is decent but he always said they were trying to recruit medium-sized businesses to the street-excuse me but why only medium sized businesses? This seems like a loser's mentality.

[RALNATIVE]

It seems like this whole project has been a haphazard gamish stifled by backwards thinking/shortsighted Council members. I have never seen such incompetent leadership as I have seen in Raleigh. I think Meeker is decent but he always said they were trying to recruit medium-sized businesses to the street-excuse me but why only medium sized businesses? This seems like a loser's mentality.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm glad that someone else sees that the city council is Raleigh's biggest barrier to success.

[ncwebguy]

While it is still early to determine F Street's "success or failure", the clock is ticking.

As noted in the WRAL story in the coffeehouse thread, businesses seem to be expecting "Raleigh Wide Open" sized crowds on a regular basis, and that isn't happening yet.

I don't like how slow the Mint has been to open, but hope it gives Fins a chance to carve out a niche in the meantime!

I think they were crazy to expect that as soon as F Street reopened. That being said, they don't seem to be marketing and/or catering to the people already going downtown. Does anyone leaving Exploris, the Natural Science museum or NC Museum of History know Crema exists? F Street Tavern could book acoustic music or small bands, but they complain about the lack of Alive After 5. Times Bar, Morning Times, The Big Easy, and Yancy's don't seem to be complaining, but were not mentioned in the story. Was WRAL afraid to show successes in the CBD?

I'm sure if council threw money at the Gap, Barnes and Nobel, etc. there would be a lot of retail open today. But as soon as the incentives ran out, the stores would close. The natural/orgainc growth of businesses downtown will be self-sustaining, but it won't happen at the snap of a finger.

[DanRNC]

I would also point out that the city's primary aspiration of F Street as a parade route could be a cause of this. Let's remember the low expectations that were originally set as the city shot down anything bold or daring-it became the least common denominator effect as to not frighten the folks from Smithfield. It may be too early to predict the demise of F Street but it sure has had an unaudacious start.

[Jones_]

Same ol' formula.....need more residents......not ultra rich residents, not section 8, but middle class residents who can read a newspaper, appreciate decent coffee, buy their own groceries, etc etc....these people need places to live......did our downtown miss the middle class portion of redeveloment in the price run-up? Maybe. As Only points out, reinforced concrete construction is 200/sqft now, right out of the gate....land and profit land us where...260-300 a sqft for the dense stuff....seems like only office rents can support new construction for much longer....building rehabs like Wachovia, old Capital Club, Odd Fellows etc, might be the only answer to solving the middle class dillema downtown....

[orulz]

Unfortunately, Raleigh doesn't have many older buildings left to renovate / convert.

But... we have another opportunity. Dare, I say it? Why not: stick-built low-rises like 712 Tucker. Seems that the word "low rise" turns people off, and the knee-jerk reaction is "Missed opportunity," but there are plenty of places at the periphery of downtown and within the surrounding neighborhoods where land values are lower and low-rises would be practical. There are bunches of crappy 1- and 2- story office buildings on Hillsborough Street just begging for redevelopment. Lots of underutilized land up West Street. Opportunities for redevelopment abound at the intersection of W. South & S. Saunders. Not to mention basically everything west of Glenwood and east of St Mary's. Plenty more opportunities for something like Carlton Place, or bigger.

[dombalis]

Sticker shock imperils downtown plaza.

http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/572247.html

This is ridiculous.