Seaboard Station

[DPK]

Capital City Grocery has apparently just signed licensing deals with Neomonde, Ninth Street Bakery, The Bread Shop, Great Harvest Bread Co, and Twisted Fork. Basically you can order what you want and they'll get it for you to CCG for pickup.

I love Capital City. I try to do a good portion of my grocery shopping there and pick up anything else from Harris Teeter.

Source:

http://projects.newsobserver.com/taking_st...at_capital_city

[DC413]

I've grown to love Capital City Grocery as well and have also been trying to do most if not all of my grocery shopping there. The hot bar is hit or miss (especially for non meat eaters), but bewteen that and the salad bar, it has become a favorite quick and conveniant dinner spot for me. The best part is that I live within easy walking/biking distance.

I really hope they make it this time around...

[Gard]

FYI Captial City Grocery closes its doors once again today: http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/1304993.html

Hate to say it but I think the only chance of a grocery store surviving there it appears is if one of the chains moves in.

[DPK]

My vote is for a Trader Joes if we have to go non-independent.

Edited November 23, 2008 by DPK

[dmccall]

Why would a chain, including Trader Joes, want to go in that space? With Fresh Market and HT sitting in Cameron Village, no food market in their right mind would try going in there, especially if two other groceries have failed.

One of Seaboard's biggest problems is that it is hard to get to (I mean from the NW, the direction from which 90% of potential customers come). Connecting Fairview over Capital into Mordecai would help, but other than that, I officially pronounce any prospective businesses in Seaboard that rely on weekly trips from people from the NW, officially "dead".

Perhaps when people move into Blount St. Commons there will be some critical mass for something.

[DPK]

Why would a chain, including Trader Joes, want to go in that space? With Fresh Market and HT sitting in Cameron Village, no food market in their right mind would try going in there, especially if two other groceries have failed.

One of Seaboard's biggest problems is that it is hard to get to (I mean from the NW, the direction from which 90% of potential customers come). Connecting Fairview over Capital into Mordecai would help, but other than that, I officially pronounce any prospective businesses in Seaboard that rely on weekly trips from people from the NW, officially "dead".

Perhaps when people move into Blount St. Commons there will be some critical mass for something.

Well aren't you full of positives. You'd be surprised I think that a lot of people would shop at a Trader Joe's. It was just an example irregardless, I could care less. I blame management for these businesses failing more than the customers. Management didn't seem to be reliable in terms of keeping product stocked. I almost feel that the closing is more out of necessity this time around because they have no product to sell. The current owners are at odds with each other and a hold has been put on ordering any new product to the store. No product, no customers. When they actually had product, they seemed to be doing rather well.

As far as Fairview being extended is concerned. I don't see that happening any time in the relative future. You are not only spanning Capital Blvd, but having to contend with the railroad right of way. Let alone the uproar from the people in the neighborhoods crying out bloody murder, NIMBYish stuff.

Edited November 23, 2008 by DPK

[suburban george3]

I had heard this location was available again, and was even informed original ownership was trying to get back into this location. I'm sorry, but IMO, this location was doomed from the start to be a grocery store. There is competition relatively close, the store doesn't front a major road, and residential development has still not come to fruition there.

This space needs to be retasked, I don't think grocery retail is the best use for this space.

[Jones_]

I had assumed when the buildings were first being renovated, that the grocery space was in the Tookies, 18 Seaboard building, facing towards Peace. Even having to place more of parking around back, having a face pointing towards Peace would alert any casual Peace driver that they were back in there.

[RaleighRob]

Well Trader Joes is already going into Holly Park, so I ain't gonna fuel that pipedream any more.

But I do highly agree that the best chance of something working there would be a chain...it's just the nature of the grocery business. You need at least a regional chain to be able to keep up supply, food diversity, service and low prices. And while it is a small building, it wouldn't be the first time a chain has opened a small store to serve a tight community. (I've seen it a few times with Food Lion and Piggly Wiggly. Granted, those two might be a bit low-scale for that neighborhood, but I'm just using them as examples of stores I've seen in buildings that size in other towns.)

I disagree that most customers would have come from the NW. I think most would certainly come from east (Oakwood), northeast (Mordecai, Oakdale), north (Pilot Mills) and south (downtown core)....it was by far the closest store for those locales. Plus the location had the potential to get a decent number of state employees to use as a "quick grocery run" on their way home from work.

That's all of course IF you can get a good, well-stocked grocery store with reasonable prices. (None of which applied to Capital City Grocery, I'm afraid.)

[breynold81]

Well Trader Joes is already going into Holly Park, so I ain't gonna fuel that pipedream any more.

But I do highly agree that the best chance of something working there would be a chain...it's just the nature of the grocery business. You need at least a regional chain to be able to keep up supply, food diversity, service and low prices. And while it is a small building, it wouldn't be the first time a chain has opened a small store to serve a tight community. (I've seen it a few times with Food Lion and Piggly Wiggly. Granted, those two might be a bit low-scale for that neighborhood, but I'm just using them as examples of stores I've seen in buildings that size in other towns.)

I disagree that most customers would have come from the NW. I think most would certainly come from east (Oakwood), northeast (Mordecai, Oakdale), north (Pilot Mills) and south (downtown core)....it was by far the closest store for those locales. Plus the location had the potential to get a decent number of state employees to use as a "quick grocery run" on their way home from work.

That's all of course IF you can get a good, well-stocked grocery store with reasonable prices. (None of which applied to Capital City Grocery, I'm afraid.)

No chain will ever take that space. Capital City's location goes against every rule about operating a grocery store. Yields are SO low on groceries that it is near impossible to operate and compete as a stand alone against the chains - add to that a horrific location - I can't believe anyone thought this was a good idea.

[orulz]

hate to be harsh but I agree with breynold81. Without at least some kind of signage to draw attention to their existence (eg. a big neon sign on the roof visible from Capital Blvd), this was a terrible location for a grocery store.

I am worried that Ace Hardware might also not survive. Anybody know how they've been doing?

Perhaps the only way we'll get a grocery to set up shop and stick around downtown will be to have a repeat of the HT in Charlotte. A chain opens up a smaller but full-service store, with the expectation that it would not make money for several years, but that the investment will start to pay off 5 or so years down the line. With a reasonably visible location, they could get by without huge losses on incidental traffic (people picking stuff up on the way home from work) and the existing residential base, but the long-term plan would be to attract an unusually large number of wealthy residents to live nearby.

I would say it's at least partially working in Charlotte. Look at all the condos that went up (or are going up) within 2 or 3 blocks of the HT. Trademark, Avenue, now Vue and Catalyst - plus a whole slew of 5-10 story mid rises. I would bet that the proximity of the grocery store is a big reason why so many major residential projects are located in that part of Charlotte. That plus the existing residents in the fourth ward neighborhood constitute a reasonably large, affluent, and captive audience. Due to the relative affluence of neighborhood residents, they are probably more likely to spend money on higher-margin groceries like organics and specialty items. Therefore, after the captive audience is large enough, they can have a profitable store - even if its volume and gross revenue is lower than your average suburban HT. But the question is, how profitable will it be, and how long does it take to get there? I think the store in Charlotte is somewhat of an experiment for HT; if they judge the Charlotte experiment to be a success, then maybe they'll try it elsewhere.

I'm not really sure whether or where such an opportunity exists in Raleigh, but the area between Glenwood South and Capital Blvd along West and Harrington strikes me as the most likely to see a lot of high-end residential growth in the near future, so perhaps around there.

[JeffC]

hate to be harsh but I agree with breynold81. Without at least some kind of signage to draw attention to their existence (eg. a big neon sign on the roof visible from Capital Blvd), this was a terrible location for a grocery store.

I am worried that Ace Hardware might also not survive. Anybody know how they've been doing?

Ace Hardware survives on excellent customer service serving people like me who are tired of having to either feign death or mug an employee at Home Depot or Lowe's to get some attention. I haven't been into this Ace in particular, but the one up at North Ridge thrives on this formula. I've NEVER, even once walked in to the North Ridge Ace for more than 15 seconds without someone coming up to me and asking if they could help me.

In contrast, judging by the sorts of things the numbskull former employees are posting on the closure thread over on New Raleigh, CCG never had the customer service superiority going for it to offset its other, obvious shortcomings...

[Jones_]

^I too thought the area between Capital and Glenwood would make a good spot for say a Kroger...if it was surrounded by about 10 more West and Quorum size buildings. Much to the dismay of people in Mordecai, Oakwood and Pilot Mill, they are simply not enough to support much more than a Contis size place..and even he shut down to just do catering. Also, while the owner of the shopping center did a nice job on the buildings themselves, the location indeed, is not ready to support the rents he either wants to, or needs to collect. Isolated and quiet as it is, tearing down those warehouses, and putting in row upon row of townhouses would have fit just fine. Stuck with the expensive commercial rehab now though, I am not sure what the best way forward is. I have never seen Tookies, Peace China, or Ace Hardware busy, though I go to all three from time to time. I know about the various issues with this approach, but a two-lane Fairview Road viaduct to Halifax Street, is still the best hope for this area....now or after another few thousand people eventually make their way to living downtown. Right now, I am even worried about Blount Street Commons. There are four row homes and four carriage homes being built, and I think the website showed some of those sold, but there is clearly no rush to build out the whole block. This is all of course, one piece of slowed economic everything here and elsewhere in the world. The price of all this land....Blount Street, Seaboard Station...its all probably pushed economic reality beyond its max.

[orulz]

Ace Hardware survives on excellent customer service serving people like me who are tired of having to either feign death or mug an employee at Home Depot or Lowe's to get some attention. I haven't been into this Ace in particular, but the one up at North Ridge thrives on this formula. I've NEVER, even once walked in to the North Ridge Ace for more than 15 seconds without someone coming up to me and asking if they could help me.

Agreed. Most employees at Lowes are not there to give advice. They are there to cut boards, get things down off high shelves, cut pipes for you, etc, but mostly to prevent people from pocketing stuff and walking off with it. Some of them may be knowledgable, but they have too few employees per square foot to be helpful. I can't count the number of times I've been in Lowe's and heard over the intercom the automated voice "Customer assistance needed in the fasteners department. (pause) Customer assistance needed in the fasteners department. Customer assistance needed in the fasteners department. Customer assistance nee- Customer assistance nee- Customer assista- Customer- Custom-Custom-Custom-Custom-Custom-Customer assistance needed in the fasteners department."

I avoid going to Lowes unless I need something that I just can't get at the smaller hardware stores (a bunch of lumber, a pallet of brick pavers, a dehumidifier, water heater, etc).

Ace Hardware is great for service, but my personal favorite is Burke Brothers. Their building is about 1/4 the size of even an Ace Hardware, but they stack so much on those walls that they've always had everything I need, and their prices are reasonable (about 10% or 15% or so above Lowe's).

Another possible boon to the area would be the downtown light rail line proposal ChiefJoJo brought up. There were two stations planned on Halifax in the area, one at Peace College and another at Pilot Mill.

[ChiefJoJo]

I agree that CCG was in a terrible location for a grocer. I tried them out for a while, but I don't like going to more than one destination in my car for groceries if I can help it, and CCG pretty much never filled that role for me. I still tried to support it from time to time when I needed something quick, but too late now. A grocer at the main city market building would have been nice, but as much as it's tough to hear, I just don't think we have enough customers downtown to support a full (or even niche) grocer yet. Maybe if the last round of condo projects had gone ahead as planned, pre-meltdown, but now, it's going to be a while, i'm afraid.

On a positive note is the possibility of the apartments going in north of Ace. If it goes through, 100 new units withing a stones throw will help the entire complex tremendously.

[dmccall]

I've NEVER, even once walked in to the North Ridge Ace for more than 15 seconds without someone coming up to me and asking if they could help me.

Me, too, and it drives me crazy. I do like their popcorn, though.

Another possible boon to the area would be the downtown light rail line proposal ChiefJoJo brought up. There were two stations planned on Halifax in the area, one at Peace College and another at Pilot Mill.

So, we need to spend a billion dollars in order to get a grocery store to make it downtown???

[orulz]

So, we need to spend a billion dollars in order to get a grocery store to make it downtown???

Not a bad idea. If we're talking about connecting Fairview to Halifax ($25 million, wild guess? Plus Nimbys galore - think of the children at Raleigh Charter!!) we might as well go all the way and spend a cool billion, and at least get a nifty choo choo out of the deal too.

[DPK]

Haha, I like where dmccall and orulz are going with this.

[cthayes75]

^I too thought the area between Capital and Glenwood would make a good spot for say a Kroger...if it was surrounded by about 10 more West and Quorum size buildings. Much to the dismay of people in Mordecai, Oakwood and Pilot Mill, they are simply not enough to support much more than a Contis size place..and even he shut down to just do catering. Also, while the owner of the shopping center did a nice job on the buildings themselves, the location indeed, is not ready to support the rents he either wants to, or needs to collect. Isolated and quiet as it is, tearing down those warehouses, and putting in row upon row of townhouses would have fit just fine. Stuck with the expensive commercial rehab now though, I am not sure what the best way forward is. I have never seen Tookies, Peace China, or Ace Hardware busy, though I go to all three from time to time. I know about the various issues with this approach, but a two-lane Fairview Road viaduct to Halifax Street, is still the best hope for this area....now or after another few thousand people eventually make their way to living downtown. Right now, I am even worried about Blount Street Commons. There are four row homes and four carriage homes being built, and I think the website showed some of those sold, but there is clearly no rush to build out the whole block. This is all of course, one piece of slowed economic everything here and elsewhere in the world. The price of all this land....Blount Street, Seaboard Station...its all probably pushed economic reality beyond its max.

Tookies has been busy every time I've been there for lunch.

Peace China, well... let's just say I was less than impressed. I'll get Red Dragon or take out a 2nd mortgage on the house and splurge for PF Chang's before I go back there.

Ace has been dead every time I've been in there. I don't know how they will make it.

[DPK]

Peace China, well... let's just say I was less than impressed. I'll get Red Dragon or take out a 2nd mortgage on the house and splurge for PF Chang's before I go back there.

Peace China is ok in a pinch if you are already over there. I agree though that if I have a choice, I'd rather hit up one of the places on Hillsborough Street, etc. I feel like I get bigger portions and the food doesn't have an odd aftertaste elsewhere.

[DPK]

Was over at Peace China the other day and noticed that this building is now in the process of being torn down:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=35.792055,+-78.639681+&aq=&sll=35.792044,-78.639675&sspn=0.001327,0.003433&ie=UTF8&ll=35.791975,-78.639434&spn=0.001327,0.003433&t=h&z=19

Anyone know if this is a sign that the doomed apartment/condo project over there is gaining traction again? That or is Seaboard expanding? All else being that CSX just didn't want that thing there anymore.

[ChiefJoJo]

I believe it's the revival of the Seaboard Apartment project. Urban apartments are very hot right now, as you'll note the Bolton tract rezoning at Hillsborough/Morgan, the Crescent project at Cameron Village, the Stanhope student apartments, Seaboard, and rumors of others on the drawing boards, including one in Glenwood South near 712 Tucker.

[Jones_]

Thats what I read 6 or so months ago. I hope it has a connection to Halifax Street. The economy being what it is, looks to be the best thing for downtown now. We all know that apartments in that middle range that "normal" people can afford has long been the missing ingredient. I know Tucker and Hue are still at the top of the range price-wise, but I can't imagine all these projects aiming for that price point.

Spoke too soon.....Overlook Court is the proposed connection to Halifax Street.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Jones133

[miamiblue]

Yes, I believe this is the stalled apartment project at Seaboard. A friend is the organizer for the Music on the Porch series that was using the Peace China parking lot after the closing of Capital City Grocery. He said that Music on the Porch will be moving to a location in the warehouse district this year because of the construction of the apartment project.

Developers would be smart to build mid-price range apartments in downtown. There is probably more demand there right now than at any other price point, especially with the housing situation the way it currently is. Actually, they should have started building these projects when 712 Tucker did, and they would likely be raking it in right now.

Edited February 27, 2011 by miamiblue

[Euphorius]

111 Seaboard is being converted to retail. Article is here