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Va. Beach Towncenter project

vdogg

By vdogg
in Virginia Beach

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PeninsulaKiddo Burg

PeninsulaKiddo

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Why is everyone discounting Va. Beach's Westin to possibly be in the running for tallest?  To date it potentially has the most floors. 

Explain the math please.  How would the Granby tower -a condo tower, 29 floors, with spire, be taller than the Westin- 32-37 floors, also a condo tower/hotel, with spire as well?

Are you just going by a pencil done drawing?  I wouldn't trust that the proportions are perfect to the surrounding building in the illustration.  Also in the westin computer graphic, they deleted the surrounding buildings which would take away from perspective and proportion.

-I dig the Westin.  While I think they could have done more with the land, the design itself makes me think of a dusty, sand blown Egyptian Obelisk.

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Because even if the Westin got an aforementioned "variance" to increase its height, I doubt that would cover a 100 foot increase. Oceana would have a coronary on Virginia Beach's city council for something like that. Though it would be rather nice! haha ^_^

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urbanvb City

urbanvb

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with just seeing the small westin picture, I think the architecture of it will actually fit the town center better than the AH building.

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And I think once this is built the whole region will start taking notice. Here's wishes for more highrises at TC!! :D

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urbanfan Hamlet

urbanfan

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Why is everyone discounting Va. Beach's Westin to possibly be in the running for tallest?  To date it potentially has the most floors. 

Explain the math please.  How would the Granby tower -a condo tower, 29 floors, with spire, be taller than the Westin- 32-37 floors, also a condo tower/hotel, with spire as well?

Are you just going by a pencil done drawing?  I wouldn't trust that the proportions are perfect to the surrounding building in the illustration.  Also in the westin computer graphic, they deleted the surrounding buildings which would take away from perspective and proportion.

-I dig the Westin.  While I think they could have done more with the land, the design itself makes me think of a dusty, sand blown Egyptian Obelisk.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I mentioned this before on a previous thread. Hotels, which half or more of the building is, are usually built of concrete which allows the floor height to be considerably shorter. Hotels can do this because they don't have to run HVAC systems. Each room has its own unit usually right at the window. Therefore cieling heights can be considerably shorter and because its is a flat concrete ceiling the cieiling is usually just painted over or textured right on the concrete. Now since the building will start out as concrete you just can't put a steel building on top of concrete, therefore the rest of the building will probably be concrete. And since concrete is built with floor slabs that are flat the HVAC system will not have to drop below beams. Therefore the condos could still be 12'-0" floor heights and have enough room to put a drop cieling at 10'-0" and have plenty of room for wiring and HVAC. Also the building is no longer being built on top of the garage, the garage is being built to wrap around it.

The granby towers however have no hotel attached. And while it is not being built on a garage any more it leaves open the option of a steel structure which I would assume it will be. However it may not be. That's just my opinion (I am a structural engineer) this is what I do for a living. Also the structure on top of the Westin is more of a tent domed structure whereas the structure on top of granby is more of a tower. I fully expect the tower on top of granby to be much larger that what the westin is. The picture show the tower rising about a fourth the height of the building. With that being said, I expect both towers to top the 450 ft. mark. Eclipsing the Richmond building.

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rusthebuss Metropolis

rusthebuss

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I mentioned this before on a previous thread.  Hotels, which half or more of the building is, are usually built of concrete which allows the floor height to be considerably shorter.  Hotels can do this because they don't have to run HVAC systems.  Each room has its own unit usually right at the window.  Therefore cieling heights can be considerably shorter and because its is a flat concrete ceiling the cieiling is usually just painted over or textured right on the concrete.  Now since the building will start out as concrete you just can't put a steel building on top of concrete, therefore the rest of the building will probably be concrete.  And since concrete is built with floor slabs that are flat the HVAC system will not have to drop below beams. Therefore the condos could still be 12'-0" floor heights and have enough room to put a drop cieling at 10'-0" and have plenty of room for wiring and HVAC.  Also the building is no longer being built on top of the garage, the garage is being built to wrap around it.

The granby towers however have no hotel attached.  And while it is not being built on a garage any more it leaves open the option of a steel structure which I would assume it will be.  However it may not be.  That's just my opinion (I am a structural engineer) this is what I do for a living.  Also the structure on top of the Westin is more of a tent domed structure whereas the structure on top of granby is more of a tower.  I fully expect the tower on top of granby to be much larger that what the westin is.  The picture show the tower rising about a fourth the height of the building.  With that being said, I expect both towers to top the 450 ft. mark. Eclipsing the Richmond building.

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As of right now, VaBeach has a 400 Ft. Limit for the city in the TC district

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ace707 Hamlet

ace707

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I mentioned this before on a previous thread.  Hotels, which half or more of the building is, are usually built of concrete which allows the floor height to be considerably shorter.  Hotels can do this because they don't have to run HVAC systems.  Each room has its own unit usually right at the window.  Therefore cieling heights can be considerably shorter and because its is a flat concrete ceiling the cieiling is usually just painted over or textured right on the concrete.  Now since the building will start out as concrete you just can't put a steel building on top of concrete, therefore the rest of the building will probably be concrete.  And since concrete is built with floor slabs that are flat the HVAC system will not have to drop below beams. Therefore the condos could still be 12'-0" floor heights and have enough room to put a drop cieling at 10'-0" and have plenty of room for wiring and HVAC.  Also the building is no longer being built on top of the garage, the garage is being built to wrap around it.

The granby towers however have no hotel attached.  And while it is not being built on a garage any more it leaves open the option of a steel structure which I would assume it will be.  However it may not be.  That's just my opinion (I am a structural engineer) this is what I do for a living.  Also the structure on top of the Westin is more of a tent domed structure whereas the structure on top of granby is more of a tower.  I fully expect the tower on top of granby to be much larger that what the westin is.  The picture show the tower rising about a fourth the height of the building.  With that being said, I expect both towers to top the 450 ft. mark. Eclipsing the Richmond building.

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Thanks for the knowledge! That's great insight in getting more accurate and detailed info about building heights rather than just guessing off how many floors a building will have. So can you help out here with what you know... Westin will have 9 ft high ceilings and will likely be at the 37 floor mark w/o the garage being under it, so given that and the likely-hood that the spire on top is said to be half the height of the Armada Hoffler spire which is 100 ft., what do you think is the most likely/realistic height range going to be?

Onto Granby Tower... assuming that we will stay at 29 stories with what is being said to be 10 ft high ceilings, plus word going around that the first floor will be somewhat higher (i'm assuming 11-12 ft high) and then what I call the "3-piece spire" because of the lowest squarish portion, then the roundish portion, and then the actual spire itself, how high will this building be?

You also mentioned steel. For Westin's Tower, the tent looking part and spire will be all steel or what else could be up there? For Granby, based on renderings, are we looking at steel and i presume glass? or are we getting steel and some other kind of materials up there?

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urbanfan Hamlet

urbanfan

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Thanks for the knowledge! That's great insight in getting more accurate and detailed info about building heights rather than just guessing off how many floors a building will have. So can you help out here with what you know... Westin will have 9 ft high ceilings and will likely be at the 37 floor mark w/o the garage being under it, so given that and the likely-hood that the spire on top is said to be half the height of the Armada Hoffler spire which is 100 ft., what do you think is the most likely/realistic height range going to be?

Onto Granby Tower... assuming that we will stay at 29 stories with what is being said to be 10 ft high ceilings, plus word going around that the first floor will be somewhat higher (i'm assuming 11-12 ft high) and then what I call the "3-piece spire" because of the lowest squarish portion, then the roundish portion, and then the actual spire itself, how high will this building be?

You also mentioned steel. For Westin's Tower, the tent looking part and spire will be all steel or what else could be up there? For Granby, based on renderings, are we looking at steel and i presume glass? or are we getting steel and some other kind of materials up there?

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Typically a steel structure has floor heights in the 13' - 14' range. Mainly because if the cieling is at 10' that only leaves 4' for HVAC and electrical. When you factor in the beam heights your looking at right around 2' for that stuff which is about normal. If the granby tower is steel expect it to be 14' floors. Usually the first floor is larger, close to 18' to 20' because it will be right at the street probably with retail on its ground floor.

So lets say 20' for the first floor and 28 floors at 14' your looking at a building in the range of 420' en add the steel tower on top, your probably looking at 50' - 100'. My guess is that the top of this tower will hit right near 500' if not more.

As far as the Westin I think that the floors will probably be in the 10' - 12' range. Assume 10' for the hotel and 12' for condos. Ground floor will probably also be about 20'. I don't remember how many floors the hotel was going to take up so lets just say that it only takes 10 floors. Therefore 10 floors at 10', 26 floors at 12' and one at 20' I would say that the building will be right around 430' then add the structure on top which looks to be a steel center pole with tensioned fabric much like the Hampton convention center or Ntelos pavilion I would say the building will top out at the 480' mark. But if the beach does not allow the builidng to rise above the 400' mark I don't see how the building can be 37 floors. You might be able to squeeze 32 floors under 400'.

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ace707 Hamlet

ace707

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Unfortunately this may well be the case. The only references the developer has made in direct correlation to the height issue was "400ft to the summit" summit meaning the highest portion of the building. At that time they were refering to the structure being 35 floors in height. Rough off the cuff calculation at 10ft ceilings (they mentioned 9 but 10 is easier to calculate in my head), that would give you 350ft for the main portion and 50ft left for the spire. Depending on how stringent the beach is on this height limit you may see a "slight" reduction in number of floors but not overall height. This building will not go below 30, this confirmed by the mayor herself in the state of the city address. That being said, if we do see a reduction it will likely be to the 32-35 range and no lower. I have emailed the developer again on this issue, they have been very reponsive to my earlier questions so they will probably respond to this as well. I'll let you know what i find out.

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Honestly that is disappointing if the beach keeps the 400ft limit because then the Westin wouldn't be any taller than the Armada building. It'll obviously look taller, bigger, and is an actually a building that is taller since there isn't a garage under it but still for most, it won't look any taller to either the "un-informed" or naked eye. I'm afraid to think of this building as Dominion tower with a 60ft spire on top of it with 9 ft ceilings vs 10 ft ceilings. It makes me feel uneasy in the stomach over the thought. :sick:

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urbanlife Town

urbanlife

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As of right now, VaBeach has a 400 Ft. Limit for the city in the TC district

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"As of right now, VaBeach has a 400 Ft. Limit for the city in the TC district" qoutations are needed when talking about VaBeach regulations. Its like using the word "green line" and VaBeach in the same sentence.

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ace707 Hamlet

ace707

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"As of right now, VaBeach has a 400 Ft. Limit for the city in the TC district"  qoutations are needed when talking about VaBeach regulations.  Its like using the word "green line" and VaBeach in the same sentence.

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I'm confident that they will give some lean towards the projects favor. I don't think they will impose the 400 ft limit but I think they will impose a limit of 450 ft. What do you think? I think its fair to give them an additional 50 ft right? Even if it's just for the spire at least they weren't held down to keep a similar height to that of the Armada. I don't want the Westin to have the same feel, height, and blandness of the Armada Tower.

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urbanlife Town

urbanlife

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Virginia beach has been known for giving in to developers. I think they will hold close to the 400ft marker for the residents, but VB will probably score a couple 450 to 500 footers. Maybe even a 550 ft towers someday when this blooms into a true dowtown.

I would be happy if VB took from Orlando's downtown in the way of architecture design. I think it would fit them well.

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urbanlife Town

urbanlife

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The proposal for the Westin looks fine but I think looks a lot like the AH Tower. Both are square with lots of white color and both have spires. I would like to think the next new highrise will have a whole new look.

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I have a feeling all the tall towers in the town center will have that whitish look to them. Dont ask me why, I am still trying to figure out what kind of crack the city officials are on.

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PeninsulaKiddo Burg

PeninsulaKiddo

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pleeeeeeeeeeeease don't say that!  :cry:

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I agree. I don't think it should be tied to any "specific look" because it'll give TC an even more artificial feel to it. I like the fact that DT Norfolk and DT Richmond etc. have varied and interesting skylines. If Norfolk was dominated by 20 Bank of America buildings it would be rather boring and bland, right? I have a feeling Virginia Beach's "Downtown" may be doing just that with such similar designs... Hopefully City View and other developments will bring in a few, more diverse, high rises into the mix.

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mistermetaj Hamlet

mistermetaj

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with all due respect guys, these buildings are all part of an entire project called the Town Center project. There is definitely going to be uniformity with all the towers so they will be seen as part of the same project. The next group of projects will have their own distinct look to them so dont worry too much about what they buildings look like yet. Afterall, there are only two anyway.

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