Charlotte The Next Atlanta?

[teshadoh]

NorffCarolina - thanks, I agree with most of your points & have even stated some of them. Charlotte has several instruments to use in order to better manage growth for the future than Atlanta.

But, and this will hopefully be my last statement - because there is honestly nothing else to provide to the converstation - there IS sprawl in the Charlotte metro and it IS sprawling. Most likely not to the extent of Atlanta's metro (once Charlotte achieves the size in population) but currently, it is a multi-nodal metro that despite Charlotte/Meck's smart growth initiatives, will result in an extended amount of low density sprawl. But, it will be better managed than Atlanta's.

I swear, I've said the above comment numerous times & I am still at a loss why that is debatable. Which is unfortunate, because that has been my main platform - not to defend Atlanta or promote Atlanta as a less sprawling metro. But I agree there is no need for any further attacks, unless there are any other topics to discuss - I will assume no one else finds it neccessary to reply to me.

And remember, smiley face

[monsoon]

It's interesting your maps show people living in Lake Norman, Lake Wylie, and Mountain Island Lake which make up a quite a portion of of the area you posted. Last time I checked, there were no houses and roads in the Lakes nor is there urban sprawl in the lake.

Sorry but your "proof" is nonsense.

[teshadoh]

It's interesting your maps show people living in Lake Norman, Lake Wylie, and Mountain Island Lake which make up a quite a portion of of the area you posted.  Last time I checked, there were no houses and roads in the Lakes nor is there  urban sprawl in the lake. 

Sorry but your "proof" is nonsense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then you aren't familiar with census areas are you? Census block groups, which comprise census tracts & which block groups themselves comprise blocks. These census districts do in fact cover natural features such as hydrographic areas such as lakes. Essentially - they do not 'stop' at the edge of the water but continue in an undefined direction toward some midpoint - in Lake Wylie's case the county line.

No need to apologize, these maps are not intended as "proof" of anything. They are for the reader to make up their own minds(unless they are unable to read a map or data).

monsoon - please, feel free to private message me if you want to, otherwise try to keep things civil.

[monsoon]

Then you aren't familiar with census areas are you?  ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you kidding? If you are not then again you are being condescending.

I am well aware of what a census tract is and I can tell you that what ever you posted does not in no way resemble a census tract population map. And on top of that it has no legend, no scale and no explanation. We can assume anything from it. i.e. nonsense.

[ATLman1]

You, my friend, have not only negated yourself, but you've completely missed the point altogether. First you say Charlotte will never be anything like Atlanta, then you say that it is 25-30 years behind Atlanta in everything. Well make up your mind!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What don't you understand about that? If Charlotte is 25-30 years behind Atlanta, then YES, it does mean that Charlotte will never be anything like Atlanta. So, in 30 years, Atlanta will still be ahead of Charlotte by 30 years. Therefore, Charlotte will always be behind Atlanta and will never be like Atlanta whether it's 30 yrs or 100 yrs. So you, "my friend", need to dig deeper into the meaning of something before flipping out.

[monsoon]

What don't you understand about that? If Charlotte is 25-30 years behind Atlanta, then YES, it does mean that Charlotte will never be anything like Atlanta. So, in 30 years, Atlanta will still be ahead of Charlotte by 30 years. Therefore, Charlotte will always be behind Atlanta and will never be like Atlanta whether it's 30 yrs or 100 yrs. So you, "my friend", need to dig deeper into the meaning of something before flipping out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Atlanta boosterism never ceases to amaze me. I don't think anyone knows what their city will look like in 30 years, much less an entire century.

[ncguy06]

This thread is killing me. No just kidding, but seriously this stuff about how Atlanta is 30 years ahead of Charlotte is ridiculous.

[JunktionFET]

What don't you understand about that? If Charlotte is 25-30 years behind Atlanta, then YES, it does mean that Charlotte will never be anything like Atlanta. So, in 30 years, Atlanta will still be ahead of Charlotte by 30 years. Therefore, Charlotte will always be behind Atlanta and will never be like Atlanta whether it's 30 yrs or 100 yrs. So you, "my friend", need to dig deeper into the meaning of something before flipping out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This little thread can't be sidetracked by nonsense like this. I'm certainly not flipping out

I interpreted your statement exactly as you wrote it, and I doubt anyone here would've done it differently. Your intention and your mere involvement in this discussion sounds anything but objective. Next time you choose to make a condescending remark, be specific and say what you mean so we know where you stand.

[teshadoh]

Are you kidding?  If you are not then again you are being condescending.

I am well aware of what a census tract is and I can tell you that what ever you posted does not in no way resemble a census tract population map.  And on top of that it has no legend, no scale and no explanation.  We can assume anything from it.  i.e.  nonsense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then I again apologize, I didn't use census tracts though - census block groups. Sorry I didn't use a legend, I thought by explaining what it was it would be self-explanatory. If you wish though, perhaps you could consult Spartan - a GIS professional, to help explain the map & to verify the data used?

[monsoon]

Sorry, I'm not going off to do a research project on some maps that you conjured up. The fact they show people living in the Lakes (85 square miles) means they are useless in proving anything.

[teshadoh]

Sorry, I'm not going off to do a research project on some maps that you conjured up.  The fact they show people living in the Lakes (85 square miles) means they are useless in proving anything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

monsoon - I'm glad you opened up the thread, sorry this got so heated up, but I truely want you to be able to understand my intent. I am no way intending to 'proove' which city is more sprawling, just provide some data in a non-abstract format (though even census block groups are abstract in a sense). But please allow me to again explain...

THose maps are not population thematic maps, they do not illustrate popuplation. The data I provided is for that purpose, what the maps indicate are the zones I grouped the data by. The block groups (not tract) are symbolized by which quartile I measured them to be in. The measurement is based on dividing the distance between the city point & the furthest defined urban area/cluster within the consolidated metro area. So, therefore, the symbolization is based on groupings not population. Even though - if I did make any population based map, the block groups, tracts or blocks likely indicate some population, unless they were fully within the hydrographic feature. The census boundary areas are for an administrative purpose, they are required to cover all teritory within the county, so if the county covers a lake, so do the census areas. If you do feel they are useless, if you have any suggestions I could modify the methodology used, I admit I haven't represented sprawl in this fashion before. I do think this type of data representation does have some promise.

So... are we cool?

[monsoon]

Indeed we are. I closed the thread for a short while to give everyone, including myself, time to think about what they wanted to say. And to cool off a bit. We don't want this place to be like other forums.

[Hybrid0NE]

Atlanta is trying to convince the world that its a world class city.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

CLONK! *sound of cityboi being hit with the Olympic Torch* Atlanta is a world class city, must I hit you over the head with the torch again to prove it?

Anyway, Atlanta Junior definitely campaigned hard to be the Next Big-Peach when it started building an interstate loop around urban center. That baby is gonna sprawl hard once it's fully complete with hundreds of thousands of Tarheelers cutting off innocent South Carolinians everyday. Farmers that relocated to Kentucky will be ranting about how Charlotte ate their farms that were once in the country 40 miles away from Trade & Tryon.

I can't read the future but I honestly hope the City doesn't fulfill it's destiny of becoming Atlanta, afterall it's the Jewel of the Carolinas (Myrtle Beach is gonna murder me for that).

[monsoon]

HybridONE, not only the future, but you would seem to have difficulty reading the present as well. First, unlike, 285, 485 is contained entirely within Mecklenburg so the county government and the towns in Mecklenburg determine what happens to it. They have reduced the number of exits on the highway, delayed the building of others and have extremely restrictive zoning around them to prevent sprawling development. Atlanta is a good example of what not to do with a highway.

In regards to the farms in Mecklenburg, there are special tax incentives to keep them farms and many other restrictions that keep them from being turned into Atlanta style cul-de-sac development. I recommend you go to huntersville.org and look at town planning if you are interesting in how this is being done.

[teshadoh]

Exactly how restrictive? Any news item on development around Charlotte will yield articles on new subdivisions / shopping centers / office parks at a I-485 interchange. But certainly I wouldn't expect every city / county to be perfect, even when attempting to fulfill smart growth initiatives, so I can't fully blame developers & easily manipulative zoning boards that allow such developments - it's not a perfect system.

But I-485 should not have been built, it was a major catalyst to sprawling development outside of Atlanta. It won't unfortunately be any different in the Charlotte metro with 485 being just a few miles from several suburban counties.

[spectacle21]

Atlanta & Charlotte are two very similar cities...mostly in road construction, architectural style, and regional prominence. In my opinion, I think Charlotte will become more-or-less like Atlanta over the next 15-20 years in growth/sprawl patterns. I think that our future dense suburban growth will be a bit more manageable since I-485 is enclosed entirely in Meck County & so many surrounding towns are more stern on growth regulation patterns. But, I think its kinda self-destructive to have all these major projects going on all @ once: I-485, I-77/I-85 Widening Projects, Light Rail, Furthering Suburban Sprawl......I think the region is pretty much BEGGING to be the next Atlanta with all this present activity.

[Norm2]

The majority of southern cities are all the same when it comes to sprawl.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

personally, if the urban core develops and stays on a strong growth pattern, I could care less about sprawl. I almost rather see a subdivision filled with McMansions to the brim then the country side. Maybe I am just a bit odd.

[Norm2]

Yea, lets develop the core as much as we can, who give a F*ck about the rest of the county lol

[Hybrid0NE]

Yea, lets develop the core as much as we can, who give a F*ck about the rest of the county lol

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe you should, if sprawl becomes the leak that makes the ship sink and Mecklenburg is the ship, then Charlotte will drown with the rest of the county. I should be quiet, there will probably be enough of Charlotte in South Carolina to suck Columbia and Greenville (especially Greenville) into the undertow.

[krazeeboi]

Maybe you should, if sprawl becomes the leak that makes the ship sink and Mecklenburg is the ship, then Charlotte will drown with the rest of the county. I should be quiet, there will probably be enough of Charlotte in South Carolina to suck Columbia and Greenville (especially Greenville) into the undertow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh God, please don't let that be in my lifetime......

[murderingmouth]

Maybe you should, if sprawl becomes the leak that makes the ship sink and Mecklenburg is the ship, then Charlotte will drown with the rest of the county. I should be quiet, there will probably be enough of Charlotte in South Carolina to suck Columbia and Greenville (especially Greenville) into the undertow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With the pace of growth in Charlotte (which is growing faster than Atlanta), you simply HAVE to have a little bit of sprawl AND a little bit of density. I think Charlotte is doing a very good job of balancing these two things. The biggest shortcoming is probably the fact that Charlotte is removing all it's "old stuff" as it develops, but this is not leading to the stale vaccuum atmosphere you see in other cities which have done this, because the development is following a very logical and urban-friendly plan. So maybe this shortcoming will not hurt it in the end - time will tell.

It will take a long time if Charlotte is to overtake Atlanta as the dominating regional metro area. And Raleigh is growing faster than Charlotte, so the Triangle may be a more likely candidate for such a position anyway, also being the capital. The point I think needs to be be made here, however, is that Charlotte's development seems to be very well-though-out and seems to be taking into account the need for good transit and balancing density with sprawl.

Too much sprawl and transit becomes impossible to manage. Too much density and housing costs inflate so much that you lose a lot of your workforce and permanently ban 75% of your population to rental housing (as demonstrated in much of the DC/NY/Philly areas, as well as most of the West Coast). Allowing this to happen to a city is the most likely cause of most of the types of "blight" we associate with dysfunctional large cities. I think Charlotte's doing just about everything right.

MM

[peaceloveunderstanding]

good words. I agree.

[NCtarheel]

You're right, look at a city like Portland or Seattle. Extremely expensive basically because they stopped allowing sprawling development. Even new urbanism has become an enclave for the very rich who can afford 300,000 plus for a new townhome. I think charlotte is developing much better than Atlanta did, although I still wish there were some sort of strict, well planned regional growth plan that everyone agreed to uphold.