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architect2004

Israel or Palestine?

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Pre-1967 lines to some degree are Israel to me, while Gaza and most of the West Bank are a potential Palestine, if the authorities in those areas can maintain safety for Israel.

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well its Palestine, all of it, but i am sure alot of people in this forum would disagree . . . . . oh well,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Count me as one of them. That small patch of land can divided into a homeland for both groups (which both have historic and theological roots there), if only their extremist leaders and extremist elements could bring themselves to accept the obvious moderate solutions presented in the original Clinton/Barak plan...

- Garris

Providence, RI

PS: This kind of geopolitical topic isn't the most appropriate for UP, in my opinion.

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the term "palestine"

some 2000 years ago the Roman conqurer of the land of Israel and the Hebrew people gave it anew name -Palestine (linguistic based upon philistine cities).

from latin the term entered other European languges and Arabic .than later used to describe that land.

the British mandate (1917-1948) fixed the borders and forged apolitical unit for the first time in history using that term - the mandate of palestine.

the local arab and jews were called "palestinians ".after the English term.

as Israel was declered independence in 1948 (for the local Jews) the local arab (part of the vast Arab world) continue to develope their seperate national identity, based upon ethnical Arab-Islamic features (there never was apalestinian ethnic nor apolitical entity till 19th cen.) distuinguished from the Jews/Hebrew one. - the palestinian nation.

the Term "Israel"

"Israel" is used below in at least 4 meanings -

A-since 4000 years ago the name is used -Jacob=Israel then given to his childrens :the people of Israel /sons of Israel /the land of Israel.

The community, tracing its ancestry to Abraham, described as entering into a covenant with the God of Israel YHWH (See also Names of God) in the biblical books of Exodus and Deuteronomy;

B-people who returned to Canaan in the 13th-11th centuries BCE and eventually form the Kingdom of Israel (often called the United Monarchy) which splits in the late 10th century BCE into (see map) the Kingdom of Judah, under the Davidic dynasty, in the south (encompassing the former tribal territories of Judah, Simeon and southern Benjamin) and the Kingdom of Israel, in the north and east (encompassing the former territories of the remaining tribes of Israel). According to the biblical tradition (Joshua to 2 Kings), this Israel is physically and religiously the descendant of the Israel described in (a) above;

C- people mentioned in the Egyptian Merneptah Stele [ii] (approximately 1210 BCE) as living in Canaan. Merneptah succeeded his father, Rameses II (about 1300-1234 B.C.) as Pharaoh (king of Egypt). Rameses II is usually considered the Pharaoh of the Exodus of the Israelites from Egyptian captivity (map).

D-The modern State of Israel.

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I call it Occupied Palestine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, aren't you special ? What would you do with 'Occupied Palestine' if you had the power ?

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I'm with Garris on this one.

Let's face it, its the traditional homeland of two peoples who have actually competed for centuries. When the Romans renamed it Palestina, it was done out of contempt for the Hebrew peoples by naming it after their bitter enemies, the Philistines.

Today, Israel has been grossly and inordinately maligned and has become the whipping boy for the middle east- the scapegoat for the unfortunate and seemingly intractable deficit of the freedom of self determination due to the rule of mostly corrupt dictators.

Only country in the middle east where arabs freely vote and participate in an entirely democratic process? Israel.

Though I guess now you might say Lebanon, Jordan, and Kuwait may be headed there.

Anyway, this is improper discussion for this forum. Let's just all agree that Israel has some cool cities ... as does the UAE and Lebanon. I hear Oman and Bahrain aren't doing to bad either.

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I'm with Garris on this one.

Let's face it, its the traditional homeland of two peoples who have actually competed for centuries. When the Romans renamed it Palestina, it was done out of contempt for the Hebrew peoples by naming it after their bitter enemies, the Philistines.

Today, Israel has been grossly and inordinately maligned and has become the whipping boy for the middle east- the scapegoat for the unfortunate and seemingly intractable deficit of the freedom of self determination due to the rule of mostly corrupt dictators.

Only country in the middle east where arabs freely vote and participate in an entirely democratic process? Israel.

Though I guess now you might say Lebanon, Jordan, and Kuwait may be headed there.

Anyway, this is improper discussion for this forum. Let's just all agree that Israel has some cool cities ... as does the UAE and Lebanon. I hear Oman and Bahrain aren't doing to bad either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Garris and Merceux hit the nail on the head. People now adays are so anit-Israel and it makes me very angry. I'm from a German blood line to. I support the Israelies. Also the fight is not over land its over religion. Don't be fooled by that rehtoric.

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:thumbsup:

the term "palestine"

some 2000 years ago the Roman conqurer of the land of Israel and the Hebrew people gave it anew name -Palestine (linguistic based upon philistine cities).

from latin the term entered other European languges and Arabic .than later used to describe that land.

the British mandate (1917-1948) fixed the borders and forged apolitical unit for the first time in history using that term - the mandate of palestine.

the local arab and jews were called "palestinians ".after the English term.

as Israel was declered independence in 1948 (for the local Jews) the local arab (part of the vast Arab world) continue to develope their seperate national identity, based upon ethnical Arab-Islamic features (there never was apalestinian ethnic nor apolitical entity till 19th cen.) distuinguished from the Jews/Hebrew one.  - the palestinian nation.

the Term "Israel"

"Israel" is used below in at least 4 meanings -

A-since 4000 years ago the name is used -Jacob=Israel then given to his childrens :the people of Israel /sons of Israel /the land of Israel.

The community, tracing its ancestry to Abraham, described as entering into a covenant with the God of Israel YHWH (See also Names of God) in the biblical books of Exodus and Deuteronomy;

B-people who returned to Canaan in the 13th-11th centuries BCE and eventually form the Kingdom of Israel (often called the United Monarchy) which splits in the late 10th century BCE into (see map) the Kingdom of Judah, under the Davidic dynasty, in the south (encompassing the former tribal territories of Judah, Simeon and southern Benjamin) and the Kingdom of Israel, in the north and east (encompassing the former territories of the remaining tribes of Israel).  According to the biblical tradition (Joshua to 2 Kings), this Israel is physically and religiously the descendant of the Israel described in (a) above;

C- people mentioned in the Egyptian Merneptah Stele [ii] (approximately 1210 BCE) as living in Canaan.  Merneptah succeeded his father, Rameses II (about 1300-1234 B.C.) as Pharaoh (king of Egypt).  Rameses II  is usually considered the Pharaoh of the Exodus of the Israelites from Egyptian captivity (map).

D-The modern State of Israel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tov m'od PrimaVera!

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I'm Catholic, but I support the state of Israel as a haven for Jewish people.

But, there are some things about the formation of Israel that I find gaulling. Theodore Herzl was one of the key people in the late 1800s who pushed for the idea of a country that Jews could call their own. Many Jews started moving to various areas in what is today Israel. There was a saying going around that many Jews honestly believed was true and that was that palestine, as it was known then, was a "land without a people for a people without a land."

This attitude kind of ticks me off. Of course the land was quite unpopulated, but it was certainly not without any people. Those that were there were Arabs and the early Jewish settlers and the Jews who had lived in palestine through history should not have treated these people as invisible or as just an arab who happened to be living in an area of palestine and would be happy to move across the Jordan River to another land where people look like him and speak his language.

But today, Palestinians and Jews must learn to live together, even if it means living apart in their own countries.

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in the history of the world, Palestine has never existed as a nation. The region known as Palestine was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their ancestral homeland. It was never ruled by Arabs as a separate nation.

Why now has it become such a critical priority?

This Israel.

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Curious, what gave the British the authority to do this?

Because Jeiwh sit here over 5,000 years.

Palestinian people don't exist

the name Palestin come from the roman empire after they counqered Israel.

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Isn't Jordan part of Palestine? If so then why are they harassing Israel when there's so much more land to be had on Jordan's side? How come the Palestinians and the other Arabs didn't seem to care about building a Palestinian nation until after Israel was created? If they were there for thousands of years then it would seem like they, Palestinians, would have either intergrated with another Arab nation or tried to start their own state. I mean after the break up of the Ottoman Empire they had their chance. Unless Arabs across the Middle East didn't care about the Palestinians until Israel came along.

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QUOTE(lupitachica @ Jul 13 2006, 04:09 PM)

Curious, what gave the British the authority to do this?

Because Jeiwh sit here over 5,000 years.

Palestinian people don't exist

the name Palestin come from the roman empire after they counqered Israel.

I asked what gave the British the authority to give what many european jewish people claim is "ancestral land" to european jews and create a nation called Isreal that didn't exist before.

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I asked what gave the British the authority to give what many european jewish people claim is "ancestral land" to european jews and create a nation called Isreal that didn't exist before.

Israel did exist before.

So what give rome the right to conquered Israel and Jerusalem from the Jewish?

I think you should open history book and start to read before you start talking bullcrap.

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..... before you start talking bullcrap.

Please don't insult other forumers here. It really does not add anything to a civil discussion and only goes to cloud your own argument.

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