Most Dense South Carolina City?

[UrbanSoutherner]

If I am not mistaken, part of Charleston's highest density areas would be College of Charleston dorms. Is that correct? It seems that college residential areas help with density a great deal.

[teshadoh]

If I am not mistaken, part of Charleston's highest density areas would be College of Charleston dorms. Is that correct? It seems that college residential areas help with density a great deal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is true to an extent - in Atlanta some of the densest areas are at Georgia Tech & the Atlanta University complex. But Charleston's density is highly pronounced even if there are many college students (how big is C of C?). Also, if it weren't for the census block group covering the harbour & rivers - the lesser dense edges would be equally dense - most likely the entire peninsula is at least 5000 people per square mile.

[Topher1]

Do students, especially those living in dorms, really count towards a city's population? I only ask, because I lived in university dorms during Census 2000, and most of the people in my dorm did not fill out census forms, as they were still technically residents of the towns they came from. Most people living in the dorms at my Uni were from out of state though, so it may be a different scenario. I for one, didn't become a Florida resident until a year after I graduated from college...

[sonofaque86]

According to the US census burea the most densus city in SC is....

Woodfield CDP, Richland County with...3,312.5 people per square mile...With a population of 9,238 and a area of 2.82 ...Where that is..I don't know and I live in Richland county...

[waccamatt]

Charleston definitely shows up very dense.  The most dense in SC.  Part of this is due to the cities early growth and also to it's low country position (read lack of available land).  Charleston definitely has the most urban feel when you are in city center.

I'm surprised how small the dense blocks are in Columbia.  Some of these look only a few blocks wide.  Columbia's density seems to barely edge out Greenville's.  You would think with the University that Columbia would be the most dense, not Charleston.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, people that live in dorms at USC are NOT included in the city's population so those census tracts in the USC area only include USC students whose official address (Driver's License) is at an off campus address in Columbia. Downtown Columbia is much more dense in reality than that map indicates. The same would hold true for the area around the College of Charleston, except that it has a much smaller population than USC.

[waccamatt]

Charleston definitely shows up very dense.  The most dense in SC.  Part of this is due to the cities early growth and also to it's low country position (read lack of available land).  Charleston definitely has the most urban feel when you are in city center.

I'm surprised how small the dense blocks are in Columbia.  Some of these look only a few blocks wide.  Columbia's density seems to barely edge out Greenville's.  You would think with the University that Columbia would be the most dense, not Charleston.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, people that live in dorms at USC are NOT included in the city's population so those census tracts in the USC area only include USC students whose official address (Driver's License) is at an off campus address in Columbia. Downtown Columbia is much more dense in reality than that map indicates. The same would hold true for the area around the College of Charleston, except that it has a much smaller population than USC.

[Spartan]

Actually, people that live in dorms at USC are NOT included in the city's population so those census tracts in the USC area only include USC students whose official address (Driver's License) is at an off campus address in Columbia. Downtown Columbia is much more dense in reality than that map indicates. The same would hold true for the area around the College of Charleston, except that it has a much smaller population than USC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually they ARE included. When a Census is conducted, you are counted where you are living currently, not your permanent address. So, if you happen to be away at college, you would be counted at your dorm's address becuase that is where you are living. Your parent's house would be counted with one less person.

If what you said was true then there would be zero density at USC and CofC etc.

[UrbanSoutherner]

I have to agree with Spartan. I think students count. I remember in my hometown there was a council district boundary fight, and I specifically remember that college students counted as population for the purpose of drawing political districts. So, they must be counted by the Census Bureau since those are the numbers that redistricting uses.

[UrbanSoutherner]

That is true to an extent - in Atlanta some of the densest areas are at Georgia Tech & the Atlanta University complex.  But Charleston's  density is highly pronounced even if there are many college students (how big is C of C?).  Also, if it weren't for the census block group covering the harbour & rivers - the lesser dense edges would be equally dense - most likely the entire peninsula is at least 5000 people per square mile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think C of C has between 10,000 and 12,000 or so students. How many live in dorms or apartments near the college vs. elsewhere I have no idea. But it is a decent sized college.

[teshadoh]

To back up Spartan & UrbanSoutherner, I know they are counted - most often the census begins in the early part of the year & spring and it continues through the summer to 'catch up' (I helped with the catch up in Rock Hill in 1990).

Wait, I'm rambling again - anyways, I agree....

[Spartan]

The point is that they are counted, and included in density, and are represented in teshadoh's maps. If a student lives off-campus, they are still counted as living in that city or town.

What would be more interesting, though I don't know if it oculd be done, is to create a density of businesses based on employees. The patterns would be obvious, but it might better reflect activity in CBDs.

[teshadoh]

The point is that they are counted, and included in density, and are represented in teshadoh's maps. If a student lives off-campus, they are still counted as living in that city or town.

What would be more interesting, though I don't know if it oculd be done, is to create a density of businesses based on employees. The patterns would be obvious, but it might better reflect activity in CBDs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spartan, I have been wanting to do this for ages - I have been working on a side project where I determine 'urbancore' areas within urban areas. Basically - spatially referencing an abstract concept of 'urbanity', which has been difficult. The closest thing I've come to - has been basing data on the size of the census BLOCK & the block density (10,000 people per square mile). My assumption - because census blocks are based on a street block and a general 'feel' of an urban area is often measured by the size of the street blocks I could use this to measure urban areas. Basically the premise is that street blocks in a central street grid would be under .01 square mile, in a streetcar suburban neighborhood, generally around .02 square miles - a suburban pattern is usally going range larger than that - because there is little connectivity.

So - that has been my pet project which has had a few interesting results, but additionally a headache due to mixed methodology.

As for economic census data - I have only found county level employment population data. There is tract level means of commuting data - but nothing that indicates employment location at any level smaller than the county, which this site is an easy reference to deciminate the data: http://161.188.204.80/maps/charlotte/jtw51.asp

[Topher1]

I'm still not sure if I follow the idea that students count in a city's population. I know for a fact that I was counted in Census 2000 in Aiken Co, SC, because my parents said 4 people lived in their house, even though I was living in Miami at the time. If I was counted as a Coral Gables resident too, then I was counted twice.

I could possibly see that it would be easy to account for number of students living in dorms (since it's well documented), but students living off campus are impossible to count. Who's to say that 4 people, or 12 people are living in a particular house/apt, especially when the people that live there change almost yearly. It would depend on those people filling out census forms, and if they still consider themselves residents of another place, chances are they won't fill out those forms.

[Spartan]

I have seen that system before. I've had fun experimenting with it. It would require significant funding to purchase any local level data. I know it exists, but its not something that is publicly available. At least not that I've seen.

[Spartan]

I'm still not sure if I follow the idea that students count in a city's population.  I know for a fact that I was counted in Census 2000 in Aiken Co, SC, because my parents said 4 people lived in their house, even though I was living in Miami at the time.  If I was counted as a Coral Gables resident too, then I was counted twice.

I could possibly see that it would be easy to account for number of students living in dorms (since it's well documented), but students living off campus are impossible to count.  Who's to say that 4 people, or 12 people are living in a particular house/apt, especially when the people that live there change almost yearly.  It would depend on those people filling out census forms, and if they still consider themselves residents of another place, chances are they won't fill out those forms.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When you fill out the census forms you have to put how many people are living in the household. What I am describing is what is supposed to happen, its not saying what acutally happens. You are supposed to put down where you are living on April 1 of the Census year.

Many errors occur with the the Census. One problem is that illegal aliens don't understand that the data the census gathers cannot be used to track them down, so they don't fill them out. The last Census underestimated the population by how many millions? I can't recall, but it was a lot. But then you get to the question: "How do they know how many people didn't participate in the Census?"

The point of the Census is to get a good snapshot of what the population looks like at any given time so that the Representative's districts and electoral college votes can be attributed correctly. In order to do that accurately you would have to include any transient populations like college students. It would seem less correct to me to NOT count them. I live in Columbia and I would consider myself a citizen here. Why should I be skipped over just becuase I happen to live at USC?

The point you raise about yearly changes is a good one. I think that with large institutions like USC, you get a consisteny number of students coming and going, so the changes are not that dramatic. I can't speak for other places though.

[teshadoh]

I have seen that system before. I've had fun experimenting with it. It would require significant funding to purchase any local level data. I know it exists, but its not something that is publicly available. At least not that I've seen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It did occur to me after thinking about it after posting on another thread - Columbia's regional planning agency may calculate office employment data, as Atlanta's does. Is that what you were reffering to not being publicly available?

[Spartan]

Well, I have seen data sets that have a column called "Employees." But it wasn't public. It wasn't for Richland either, so its not really relevant for Columbia's purposes. My point was that the planning department might have this information.

I could be mistaken, but I think if you are a business you have to list your number of paid employees on some form. So it could be available that way if you want to dig through the files.

[teshadoh]

Well, I have seen data sets that have a column called "Employees." But it wasn't public. It wasn't for Richland either, so its not really relevant for Columbia's purposes. My point was that the planning department might have this information.

I could be mistaken, but I think if you are a business you have to list your number of paid employees on some form. So it could be available that way if you want to dig through the files.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Never seen any census data - it would be from the economic census if it exists at any sub county level. But so far I haven't found anything...

[Spartan]

Not Census data. It was collected by a local government.

[teshadoh]

Not Census data. It was collected by a local government.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, I understand what you are talking about. Nonetheless, I am hoping the next Economic Census will provide data at at least tract level. But they claim they do not provide such data (some is available at zip code level) due to issuing too much information of companies - in case there is only one business in a single census area.

Oh well - I guess we tapped that conversation dry...

[Spartan]

LOL, so it would seem But hey, everyone has their answer

[waccamatt]

mea culpa. I looked it up on the census website and you are counted where you live most of the time, so that would be on a college campus if you are there most of the year.

[Spartan]

Here are some slides that explain everything about who is counted and where.

If you want the technical infro driectly from the Census, check out this link: http://www.census.gov/population/www/censu...esid_rules.html

An except from the above link:

"Usual residence has been defined as the place where the person lives and sleeps most of the time. This place is not necessarily the same as the person's voting residence or legal residence. Also, noncitizens who are living in the United States are included, regardless of their immigration status." -US Census Bureau

[Hybrid0NE]

bump

[krazeeboi]

Wow, don't remember this thread. Because Greenville's city limits are so small considering the size of the REAL city, I would think that it would win this one, especially when all of the residential developments are completed.

What skews Columbia's density figures are the 80+ sq miles of Ft. Jackson which are included in the city limits.

How far do Charleston's city limits go beyond the peninsula?