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The Skyway


Urban_Legend

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However, lack of money isn't the excuse considering we've found a way to get most of our major road projects underway recently.  Expanding it to reach its potential is just not a priority because locals still don't see the benefit of it.

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You make an excellent point. The majority of the opposition wouldn't even be considered locals for a Skyway expansion since they live too far from the CBD. I think our new leadership owes it to us to demonstrate a stronger semblance of business acumen given Mayor Peyton's background. I'm afraid too many people would fear government operating like a business, although I was surprised when the BJP was approved.

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  • 1 month later...

With the parking problems, dramatic amount of residential development on the South Bank, Shipyard and plans at JEA Park, Prime Osborn transportation and Convention Center among others I wanted to post some of my musings about the Skyway.

Essentailly I see 2 new loops that would use the smaller (cheaper to build) monorail track (such as those used at Newark airport - same system) with stations and expansion that are partially paid for through "fair share" agreements or where a companies employees get 5 years of free daytime use and parking at a remote garage if they contribute x amount to build a station within x blocks of their property during planning, or some other option.

The phase 3 loop would go down Bay St connecting to Gator Bowl Blvd, looping the stadium, returning down Duval St, turning north on A. Philip Randolph, turning west on Beaver St, turning North on Laura St, turning West on State St and then connecting to the existing station at FCCJ.

Stations would be at/near: BOA/Modis towers, the Florida Theater, Berkman Plaza, 2 or 3 along the shipyards, metro park, the stadium (High Capacity multi level station), Baseball Grounds/Arena/Sports Garage, near the Cathedral towers/Parks at the cathedral/cathedral district. Future stations could be added as required on this northern section. The Trams that would need to be purchased would be the 6 car versions all stations today can handle, with them handling the loop and the 2 car ones handling the CBD line or coupled together for big events.

This would connect to no less than 5 large city garages, 2 of which are low use during the day. If a mega-garage was also built near the Prime Osborn it would easily fix the downtown parking issues, make room for enlargment of the convention center on site, provide direct continous links to all transportation if the interconnection station is built (ok except the Mayport ferry), and make ice cream...

Phase 4 loop expansion would incude connecting the proposed loop above to the Prime Osborne station through Lavilla, then to Brooklyn and Riverside/five points returning both across the Fuller Warren through San Marco connecting to Kings Ave garage and a sub loop connection to the Prime Osborne and Central Station by the existing track leading to maintenance garage that will serve the Riverside Corporate area (the split could be near Fidelity/Blue Cross). I will create a map in my "spare" time with additional details.

So the 2 car trains would run from Fidelity to FCCJ, the 6 car trains would run in a figure 8 or in seperate loops connecting at an expanded Prime Osborn station depending on demand, special events, etc.

The benifits are that you would connect large amounts of residential (medium and high density) areas with existing office towers, service, and entertainment options.

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and make ice cream...

Ice Cream? I like Ice Cream! :)

I love your ideas. I too have drawn up expansion plans for the Skyway. How I wish the city or JTA would build it! I like your idea about the companies paying "X" amount of $ and getting that 5 year free thing. I never thought of that one... :thumbsup:

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I have had some of the same thoughts on the Bay Street loop and a route to Riverside. The only loop that may not work is the one across the Fuller Warren because of the massive costs and all of the proposed entanglement with the new interchange. It would, however, be a great connector between Riverside and San Marco.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Phase 6 loop from Kings Ave down Atlantic Ave. to University Blvd.

And a Phase 6 loop deeper into Riverside, perhaps connecting Murray Hill.

The greatest loop would be some sort of connector to Regency. A huge garage at the mall would be a perfect park and ride location. Plus after work, there will be a good stopping place to get some shopping done before heading home. Maybe a tunnel under the St. Johns. I know I'm dreaming now, but that would prevent building another bridge and give us something no other Florida City has! :)

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Due to extreme costs, I'd avoid another skyway crossing over the St. Johns. Instead of looping the southern lines, I think its better and easier to approve extending the existing San Marco line, at least to Atlantic Blvd and extending a line down Riverside Av or Park St. into the Northern tip of Riverside. The entire plan would be met with fierce opposition if is extended into historical sections of Riverside/Avondale.

Then I'd look to extend a line into Springfield and North Jax. Those areas are the densest, have walkable gridded street layouts, existing parks (although currently underfunded) and are really true urban spots of the city. There's massive amounts of potential North of downtown, especially along Main Street (from downtown to the Trout River). Connecting all of these areas with downtown would eventually lead to billions of dollars in dense TOD's, thus making skyway expansion an investment on the city's future.

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As far as extensions to places like Regency or Murray Hill, I think it'd be better to have the BRT/Light Rail go to those great distances. The Skyway doesn't travel as fast as Light Rail, and those are pretty far off places, relatively speaking. But the Skyway will have a direct connection to this new transit system Jax is supposed to be getting...

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Agreed on the cost of another River crossing Lakelander and asonj23 also on avoiding the historical elements in Riverside as much as possible, I think I do that pretty well below.

The Added river crossing actually made things a bit harder for my plan when I was looking at the maps trying to figure out the flow of the trains, and since the Acosta crossing is dual track it could handle the extended traffic I believe of a loop probalby as well as it handles the back and forth today. The congestion point in the system would remain the y junction, however with the use of loops rather than back and forth those are also made easier to deal with.

Phase 4 then I would split and make the connection at the FCCJ station one level higher to accomodate a t pattern the new 6 car loop connecting above the 2 car line with Phase 5 extending the 6 car line and then the 2 car line would be extended in phase 8.

The Phase 5 loop would then be from the Prime Osborn along Bay, to the Forsyth St exit ramp for 95 where it would cross the train tracks (not 95), to Myrtle av, taking a jog on Forest to College St, following Margaret St to Riverside Ave where it would connect to the previously mentioned maintenance link that already exists. (leaving out St Vincents for now) (stations at the Cummer, riverside park, Fidelity/Blue Cross/St Joes, the new Y where ever it goes, the Times Union, memorial park/Riverside Publix, behind where club 5 was)

This configuration would really drive a figure 8 movement for the "Northbank trains" to provide the least changing of the rail configuration as they move. It would also keep us from having to rebuild the y junction.

Phase 6 loop would then hang a right coming off the acosta and follow Palm ave into San Marco maybe to Lasalle, then following San Marco Blvd, then following Atlantic Blvd to Phillps Hwy where it would go back to the Kings Ave garage station with stations at Riverpoint, Baptist, and more.. (I have to think of where they would fit well here)

Phase 7 Could then look at a St Vincents to the Kent Campus outer Central Shortcut Line, I will look into a pathway that would provide the least resistance imho.

Phase 8 would be for springfield as an end loop for the Central Shortcut line (from Prime Osborn to FCCJ) where it could continue this potentially could include Shands putting all 3 (4?) downtown hospitals on the system.

This could then connect additional Clubs like Metro, all of the ones in san marco, Boomtown (not a club I know) that are a bit further out.

I would prefer we use true light rail for the Regency link as they have in the plans for the new Matthews bridge (Light Rail on the existing bridge with a double deck new span beside it for car traffic as my preferred option of the ones I have seen) connecting the beach to the skyway at the Prime Osborn via a garage near or at regency.

This would then keep us out of the Historical areas of Riverside, except following the major car routes such as hwy 17 in phase 8.

By using the smaller monorail design it does not cause as much of a visual barrier that the existing rails do, not even counting reduced cost (smaller piers needed, smaller decks, less concrete, less weight, etc..) Through Riverside it could even be made to look like a roman aquaduct or something more distinctive that could be lit.

Since they system is electric it could replace some of the power lines that run on those paths in Riverside providing additional protection for the powerlines from trees during storms, and also are quiet so they will not keep anyone up, not withstanding how close the CSX train tracks are to alot of these areas anyway.

I tried to also stay near as many or our large parks as I could to provide easy access to them, and reduce opposition from running near homes:

Metro/Kid Campus, Klutho/Confederate, Memorial, Riverside..

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Ice Cream?  I like Ice Cream!  :)

I love your ideas.  I too have drawn up expansion plans for the Skyway.  How I wish the city or JTA would build it!  I like your idea about the companies paying "X" amount of $ and getting that 5 year free thing.  I never thought of that one... :thumbsup:

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Had to check if everyone was paying attention, cause the plan for the Prime Osborn Trasportation Station has everything in it.. lol

I am torn on the Light Rail or Outer Skyway for the Kent Campus line. Light rail (or even heavy rail with the existing tracks) could be implemented much faster, but would leave out alot of residential and options near St Vincents, possibly both could fit looking at different options for different sides of Riverside. Skyway being a bit more local ending in Riverside or Avondale with Rail being a connection to Clay County. The two systems could possibly meet in a station at Kent Campus as a shortcut for those working on the Riverside line with Fidelity et all, but living in Clay or Ortega. This could also provide a shortcut link from Kent Campus directly to FCCJ downtown then around sprinfield back to FCCJ downtown then to the Prime Osborn then back again in a giant Y with a loop on the end.

In all cases the rail link to Clay has to come first, which as you pointed out would take care of connecting FCCJ and Murrey Hill to the Prime Osborn transit station (just trying out names).

I would like to see the Prime Osborn converted to the Trasit (obviously) but to also include a transit musuem in or near it with MOSH locating in that area, maybe partnering with Sally Industries. Then the Larger Convention center could take up all of the rest of the space and its parking lot. No excuse then on nothing for conventioniers to do as they would also be connected out the wazoo through the skyway alone, not even counting all of the other connections..

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I like the way you are thinking, Rich, but I just dont think the skyway system will work. The main problems with the skyway system are it is too expensive to build, unsightly, difficult to get to above the street and not in fitting with the historic character of the areas surrounding downtown. Having just returned from New Orleans, I am even more convinced that a streetcar system could solve the intown needs (ie downtown, Riverside, Avondale, Springfield, etc) while a rail system utilizing existing lines could cover much of the rest of the city. A streetcar system is cheap, easy to reverse if it doesnt go over, and adds a tourist attraction of sorts. The one in New Orleans is HEAVILY used (although they have a lot more tourists than we do now).

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I do agree with the historic aspect (or lack therof) of the skyway. I personally think that an at-grade downtown transit system, interconnected with the traffic lights, would have been better.

However, there is one thing important to note: We already have the Skyway!

Personally, I think we should connect the Skyway to the Sports complex, down Riverside Avenue to the new Fidelity Garage (or that area), and that's it. Next, when we finally get this Bus Rapid Transit system, have one stop at the Jacksonville Terminal (I hope we have a new convention center by that time - anywhere but the old Train Station), one at the sports complex, and no other BRT stops downtown.

The only reason I am for a BRT stop at the sports complex is because a line from the east would probably go over either the Mathews or Hart Bridge. Imagine people's frustration when they take the BRT, and go past the Stadium, and them you would get off and wait for the Skyway, to back to the area you just passed. The main purpose for the Skyway extension in addition to the BRT stop is to allow people to go down Bay St after a concert, Jags/Suns Game, etc.

As far as the Cathedral & Lavilla districts, I believe we should have a trolley loop for these areas, so long as the trolley loops in both directions. I believe this was the main reason the Trolley in San Marco did not work.

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Personally, I think we should connect the Skyway to the Sports complex, down Riverside Avenue to the new Fidelity Garage (or that area), and that's it.  Next, when we finally get this Bus Rapid Transit system, have one stop at the Jacksonville Terminal (I hope we have a new convention center by that time - anywhere but the old Train Station), one at the sports complex, and no other BRT stops downtown.

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If its extended to the Fidelity garage, why not go ahead and extend it a couple of hundred feet to get it within decent walking distance to Five Points? The benefits of connecting the downtown core to the city's most popular inner city district, far outweigh the negatives.

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If its extended to the Fidelity garage, why not go ahead and extend it a couple of hundred feet to get it within decent walking distance to Five Points?  The benefits of connecting the downtown core to the city's most popular inner city district, far outweigh the negatives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay, I would agree to that, as long as the historic preservationists do have a cow.

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^The only way I think it would work without much criticism from the preservationist, would be to curve it off of Riverside Avenue, as soon as it crosses I-95, through all the surface parking lots between Riverside and Park. It could be terminated at either Post or Lomax Street.

Not only would it connect the nightlife, Publix, the parks and restuarants of Five Points, with downtown, it would also stimulate dense development in the under developed area between Park & Post Streets, north of Margaret, while avoiding all Riverside's historic structures.

If crossing I-95 becomes a big deal, then maybe it can be ran down Riverside Avenue, then cut across3 blocks to Park St., via Rosselle St (BCBS/Fidelity garage). Doing that would cost less money to build, attract urban development north of I-95 (instead of storage facilities) and would still be within walking distance of Five Points, by using the sidewalk that fronts Riverside Park.

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I do agree with the historic aspect (or lack therof) of the skyway.  I personally think that an at-grade downtown transit system, interconnected with the traffic lights, would have been better.

However, there is one thing important to note: We already have the Skyway!...

The only reason I am for a BRT stop at the sports complex is because a line from the east would probably go over either the Mathews or Hart Bridge.  Imagine people's frustration when they take the BRT, and go past the Stadium, and them you would get off and wait for the Skyway, to back to the area you just passed.  The main purpose for the Skyway extension in addition to the BRT stop is to allow people to go down Bay St after a concert, Jags/Suns Game, etc.

As far as the Cathedral & Lavilla districts, I believe we should have a trolley loop for these areas, so long as the trolley loops in both directions.  I believe this was the main reason the Trolley in San Marco did not work.

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Nothing to say all of this could not happen at the same time. We immediatly can not build or support the amount of skyway construction I listed, but eventualy the Cathedral and Lavilla districts will warrent it (hoepfully). I think the trolley would be perfect until enough growth is pushing those areas to use the system, or to speed up densification of those areas when the other parts of the CBD are filling up. And by all means the BRT shoud stop at the sports complex from the beaches line(s), much as the Clay line should stop at Kent Campus, doing otherwise is bypassing some of the major draws to using the system and would be a negative instead of a postive.

BTW everyone.. sorry for such long posts, I used to be much much worse, but at least now can stick to one subject instead of everyone always asking how I got to that subject from the one I started with. :whistling:

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I agree that we have a problem because of the existence of the skyway. I think the answer is the use the skyway for the downtown (plus Brooklyn/Lavilla/stadium) transportation needs. I think a modern look for downtown is ok. But, then use streetcars in surrounding neighborhoods and existing rail lines for farther around town. I think this would offer the best coverage of the area and the most bang for our buck. I can promise you there would be a revolt in Riverside/Avondale if anyone talked about extending the skyway into the neighborhood.

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It may sound a bit outrageous, but does anyone think that a modern skyway system would work in our historical districts if the actual stations were designed to look like the surrounding architecture in that area. To me, all it would take is a little creativety to make it work. After all, our downtown is a mix of the old and new right?

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^ I agree. A turn of the century "train station" looking station wouldn't be bad at all. It could have some street level retail dressed up with cement columns (much like the Prime Osborn) and conceal the majority of the monorail track by enclosing it. It could definitely interest a private developer looking to build what would be a perfect destination for buisnesses. The developer would support all of the first level retail structure and the city would provide the support structure and the second floor housing the skyway station within. Maybe even a coffee shop or a small diner on the second level. What else could we put in there?? :)

Hey, it could happen!

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^ Thats exactly what im talking about Asonj23. I love the idea a coffe shop or diner on the ground floor. Who wouldnt want to grab a bite to eat or a hot cup while waiting to board the skyway. The stations could have way more functionality than what JTA and the city has previously built. Great thinking man! :D

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^ Thats exactly what im talking about Asonj23. I love the idea a coffe shop or diner on the ground floor. Who wouldnt want to grab a bite to eat or a hot cup while waiting to board the skyway. The stations could have way more functionality than what JTA and the city has previously built. Great thinking man! :D

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Here here, The current stations are really destinations, now it is time to look at the originating end of the traffic, I did not even think along those lines, but love the idea. get the newspaper, breakfast, and some coffee on the way into the office.

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I once sketched a building for the current courthouse site that had a station on its second floor. There were retail spots below it, and the entrance to the escalators faced Bay Street. It was cool, because in this building there were also some restaurants and clubs on the second floor, and they had windows facing the back side of the skyway station. So while you were eating, you could see trains zipping by.

But, while a food/coffee place at a station be good? Are food and drinks allowed on the Skyway? I can't remember.

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Those are some great ideas! I think the first place the Skyway should be extended is to the sports complex because that will really help to increase ridership and get the money flowing in to expland it in other directions.

As for retail or newsstands, in Buenos Aires, nearly every station has some sort of retail. It might be just a bookseller, or at larger stations there were mini-malls with small bakery, coffee, book and souvenir shops, as well as internet cafes and phone booths.

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