Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[LKN704]

The high airfare is the price that Charlotte origin/destination travelers have to pay to subsidize the AA hub here.

Hubs (and former hubs) in other small cities (like CVG) suffered a similar problem. The difference between CLT and CVG is that CVG has a number of alternative airports that travellers could choose from. I know that a lot of CVG travelers would drive to IND just to fly WN.

The CLT airport staff is in a difficult position as well. They don't want to work too hard attracting LCC's or pressuring AA to lower prices, out of fear of "pissing off" AA. It's a difficult balance.

LCC's have really struggled here, historically.

-TZ (ATA) couldn't make CLT-MDW work. They were one of the first LCC's to CLT.

-FL (AirTran) couldn't make CLT-MCO or CLT-MDW work.

-B6 (JetBlue) couldn't make CLT-FLL work, and I believe their frequencies to JFK and BOS are much smaller than when they inaugurated service to CLT.

-WN (Southwest) couldn't make CLT-MCO work.

Time will tell what happens with F9 at CLT.

[CLTaviation13]

A few things.

I wouldn't necessarily say AirTan couldn't make CLT-MCO work. Now between there ATL/BWI flights it was definitely the weaker of the two. They flew consitnently all the way up til WN took over. Even upgraded in to a 737 from time to time. I do remember times where they wouldn't fly it for a season but it was always around... use to take all the time to visit family. Again, CLT-MDW on AirTran isn't worth bringing up or using it as a measurement. That whole FL MDW operation was a terrible idea for them. 

For jetBlue they couldn't make CLT-FLL work THEN in 2007. But they surely could make it work NOW in 2016. You need to remember when they started the route in 07 FLL for jetblue had maybe 25-30 flights a day with limited connecting opportunities. Fast forward to now there closing in on 100 daily flights there with plans to grow FLL to 140 flights a day in the next few years. Frankly B6 would be the only carrier that can will be able to successfully make a year round flight to Florida. 

 

who knows what F9 does. I looked on there schedule and see CLT-DEN/ORD are nowhere to be found. I know there seasonal routes but you'd think DEN & ORD could start up in the spring. 

Edited November 6, 2016 by JetBlueCLT

[LKN704]

FL didn't consistently fly CLT-MCO, and I don't believe they ever flew the route with 737s. They suspended it quite a few times, and suspended the route permanently before the WN/FL merger. WN brought the route back when the took over FL service at CLT, only to terminate the route like 8 months later.

[CLT704]

On 02/11/2016 at 9:44 PM, Miesian Corners said:

That said, God only knows what a Trump presidency will do to the global economy. <<shudder>>

Cough, cough.

[xapostrophe]

The Pittsburgh airport just added 2 flights to Europe on foreign carriers and Charlotte has 1.  Condor and wow would be welcome arrivals here.  PIT is a ghost town, there cannot be as much demand there as there is in CLT.  CLT needs to pick it up.

 

Edited November 11, 2016 by xapostrophe

[cjd5050]

28 minutes ago, xapostrophe said:

The Pittsburgh airport just added 2 flights to Europe on foreign carriers and Charlotte has 1.  Condor and wow would be welcome arrivals here.  PIT is a ghost town, there cannot be as much demand there as there is in CLT.  CLT needs to pick it up.

Via WOW right?

While having cheap access to Europe is nice..not sure I would want to make the trip on a flying bus.  

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, xapostrophe said:

The Pittsburgh airport just added 2 flights to Europe on foreign carriers and Charlotte has 1.  Condor and wow would be welcome arrivals here.  PIT is a ghost town, there cannot be as much demand there as there is in CLT.  CLT needs to pick it up.

Good news for PIT. I don't know if Wow Air's current A321-200 aircraft can make it all the way to Charlotte in the 220 seat configuration they use. PIT is about as far as they can go with that plane from Iceland. They have a -NEO on order, which they might be able to use for a route to Charlotte. 

Given PIT's situation and the need to attract new service, I don't think CLT management is willing to use the same incentive strategy. PIT is offering Wow Air $800,000 in incentives over 2 years and waiving landing fees. The Condor package will likely be similar. 

[LKN704]

I still wouldn't rule out the possibility of Icelandair flying to CLT.

[ChessieCat]

On 11/6/2016 at 10:12 AM, saamh said:

I had a meeting in Cherokee last week, I was in Miami, I flew to Atlanta instead of Charlotte like I normally would and the difference between the tickets were unbelievable... $113 nonstop Roundtrip on American Airlines to Atlanta vs. $650 nonstop Roundtrip to Charlotte on American. Only American Airlines flies between Charlotte and the Miami area (Allegiant flies from Concord to Fort Lauderdale but I refuse to fly with them). JetBlue needs to start flights to Fort Lauderdale from Charlotte. For a small company like ours we don't get the corporate discounts like the banks would get out of Charlotte, we have honestly been considering moving the company out of Charlotte in large part because of the inconvenience of travel. Whenever I fly to Charlotte, which is about once a month, I either have to pay a ridiculous amount of money to fly straight into Charlotte or fly into Raleigh and take the train to Charlotte (I just discovered how cheap Atlanta is from Miami so I will be looking into this option more often).

Do you ever buy Hidden City tickets using CLT and MIA, both AA hubs? 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/magazine/mag-08subversion-t.html

[ssh214]

15 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

Do you ever buy Hidden City tickets using CLT and MIA, both AA hubs? 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/magazine/mag-08subversion-t.html

I actually try to do this as often as possible. Normally Baltimore is the best bet. I just get off the plane in Charlotte. You just can't check in your bag

[ChessieCat]

1 hour ago, saamh said:

I actually try to do this as often as possible. Normally Baltimore is the best bet. I just get off the plane in Charlotte. You just can't check in your bag

Do you give AA your FF#?  I heard they may suspend accounts if you do hidden city ticketing often

[ssh214]

1 hour ago, ChessieCat said:

Do you give AA your FF#?  I heard they may suspend accounts if you do hidden city ticketing often

Yea I have to because I fly a lot so I like to keep the status. I don't do hidden city often enough for them to say anything. If I do it, I make sure to tell them when I land that I was sick and I would arrange for travel arrangements myself when I felt better "to my final destination."

[CLT704]

http://www.airportzentrale.de/american-airlines-25-jahre-strecke-frankfurt-charlotte/50397/  (Sorry, it's in German) 

It's the 25th anniversary of CLT-Frankfurt! That's quite impressive. Next year marks 30 years of CLT-London service! Let's hope this will continue for even more years. 

[LKN704]

CLT-HAV starts today.

[kickazzz2000]

4 hours ago, LKN704 said:

CLT-HAV starts today.

airliners.net is already calling for service to end 

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, kickazzz2000 said:

airliners.net is already calling for service to end 

Unfortunately the flight only had 56 passengers on board today, with most of the passengers being local officials. At a 44% load factor in a day and age where American can throw an A319 aircraft on almost any other route from Charlotte and print money, it will be interesting how long American is willing to sit on the slot and take a loss. Since Cuba is still not completely open to recreational travel, demand is still rather capped. Even Miami flights haven't been sold out. Airlines have added too much capacity for a country still rather closed to tourism. 

Loads from CLT to HAV don't look much better in the next two weeks. Anywhere from 40% - 60% full. I generally hate the airliners.net commentary, but in this case, unless there is a significant demand increase, this won't be a very full flight. Whether AA cancels it or sits on it for years at a loss to protect the slot is anybody's guess. 

Edited November 30, 2016 by CLT2014

[cjd5050]

10 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Unfortunately the flight only had 56 passengers on board today, with most of the passengers being local officials. At a 44% load factor in a day and age where American can throw an A319 aircraft on almost any other route from Charlotte and print money, it will be interesting how long American is willing to sit on the slot and take a loss. Since Cuba is still not completely open to recreational travel, demand is still rather capped. Even Miami flights haven't been sold out. Airlines have added too much capacity for a country still rather closed to tourism. 

Loads from CLT to HAV don't look much better in the next two weeks. Anywhere from 40% - 60% full. 

How much of the traffic is due to the time of year?  Launching a new service between Thanksgiving and Christmas is a head scratcher....

As for the recreational travel, I thought "Support for the Cuban people" was the wink-wink reason to go there for a vacation.   

[CLT2014]

9 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

How much of the traffic is due to the time of year?  Launching a new service between Thanksgiving and Christmas is a head scratcher....

As for the recreational travel, I thought "Support for the Cuban people" was the wink-wink reason to go there for a vacation.   

Ah yes, this is a slow week for air travel. That could def be a big factor. Loads look much better the week of Christmas. Closer to 80%+ full.  

Also Castro's death and the subsequent closing of numerous tourism sites this week may mean some people canceled or postponed their trip. 

Edited November 30, 2016 by CLT2014

[KJHburg]

Is it possible to use a 50 seat regional jet on the Havana route?

[LKN704]

CLT-HAV is unlike AA starting CLT-Port Au Prince or CLT-Kingston, Jamaica. HAV (and Cuba) have lacked regularly scheduled commercial air service to/from the United States for decades. At this stage, airlines are simply trying to get their foot in the door and a slice of the US-Cuba air traffic pie, for when commercial air travel picks up to the country in a few years.

I'd be willing to bet that AA would be willing to operate this service at a loss just to keep the traffic rights and the route going, so when traffic does pick up, AA is ready. AA isn't stupid. They knew the O/D demand for CLT-HAV before they even applied for the route. My guess? I believe that in two months, AA will down-gauge to an Embraer 175 (operated by Republic) or a CRJ-700 (operated by PSA). A 50-seater could operate the route easily, although I view that as unlikely. Republic is currently flying two lower performing AA MIA-Cuba routes at present.

In 10 years, I doubt that there will be service on CLT-HAV, for the same reason CLT lacks service to Santo Domingo, but has service to Puerto Plata and Punta Cana. I do see flights to Varadero and Cayo Coco, however. My Canadian friends love and rave about Varadero.

[cjd5050]

10 hours ago, LKN704 said:

CLT-HAV is unlike AA starting CLT-Port Au Prince or CLT-Kingston, Jamaica. HAV (and Cuba) have lacked regularly scheduled commercial air service to/from the United States for decades. At this stage, airlines are simply trying to get their foot in the door and a slice of the US-Cuba air traffic pie, for when commercial air travel picks up to the country in a few years.

I'd be willing to bet that AA would be willing to operate this service at a loss just to keep the traffic rights and the route going, so when traffic does pick up, AA is ready. AA isn't stupid. They knew the O/D demand for CLT-HAV before they even applied for the route. My guess? I believe that in two months, AA will down-gauge to an Embraer 175 (operated by Republic) or a CRJ-700 (operated by PSA). A 50-seater could operate the route easily, although I view that as unlikely. Republic is currently flying two lower performing AA MIA-Cuba routes at present.

In 10 years, I doubt that there will be service on CLT-HAV, for the same reason CLT lacks service to Santo Domingo, but has service to Puerto Plata and Punta Cana. I do see flights to Varadero and Cayo Coco, however. My Canadian friends love and rave about Varadero.

I wonder how much the routs will depend on where the All Inclusive resorts decide to locate.  That has to be an eventuality right?  

If Sandals or Couples decides that they want to build in Havana...that should be enough to support the route.  No?

[LKN704]

I highly doubt you will see a Sandals or Couples resort in Havana. It just isn't a beach town. Varadero, Cayo Coco, Holguín, and Santa Clara (to some) are the main tourist towns.

I think a lot of people forget is that there are major, luxury beach resorts in Cuba. I've met a lot  of Americans that don't realize that Cuba is just off the map for Americans. Europeans and Canadians have been going there for decades. Canadians prefer Cuba to other areas of the Caribbean, and it is a relatively cheap bargain.

Check out some of these resorts:

http://www.meliacuba.com/cuba-hotels/hotel-paradisus-riodeoro

http://www.royaltonresorts.com/en/royalton-hicacos.aspx

There are countless other resorts scattered around the island.

[LKN704]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jz7QgT2ioY

Even though it isn't Thursday yet, I've decided to add some #tbts. Link to a video of CLT terminal operations back in 1999. At the 1:36 mark, you get a brief glimpse of the former British Airways Terraces lounge that occupied the current USO lounge.

Also, here is a "trip report" video I found of a British Airways flight from Charlotte back in 1998. Both videos feature footage of British Airways' ill-fated Utopia/World-image livery, in which every piece of British Airways marketing (and the aircraft tails themselves) featured a ethnic art design based on a country BA served.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRbryko8BY0

 

[CLT2014]

Amazon Prime Air's Charlotte operations have been postponed until the ABX Cargo (part of Air Transport Services Groupo) strike and labor dispute is resolved. Since late November, only 9 of the 16 Prime Air routes have been operating due to lost capacity from ABX Cargo. Prime Air's other partner, Atlas Air, has been operating normally but they are not operating out of CLT. While the judge has ordered pilots to return to work, ABX still looks to not be up to full capacity. Yesterday Amazon suspended their agreement with ABX as a freight forwarder. 

"We rebalanced capacity across our carrier partners and we are leaving the adjustments in place until we are certain there will be no further disruptions," an Amazon spokeswoman told Recode news last week.

http://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/51469-amazon-suspends-abx-air-ops-as-strike-threat-remains

Edited December 8, 2016 by CLT2014

[Richhamleigh, DC]

I think North Carolina is a natural for a low-cost transatlantic carrier with its huge college student population as at least one reason.   What do you think -- will Norwegian be coming to NC and where?  Charlotte?  Concord?  GSO?  RDU?

http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/270227/norwegian-set-to-open-up-to-four-737max-bases-for-2017-transatlantic-growth/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=the-hub&utm_campaign=the-hub-AME&utm_content=the-hub-20161209