Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[KJHburg]

The new terminal A is what I call the Locals terminal.  All the other airlines besides American go from here so it more an origin and destination Charlotte terminal not a transfers terminals like the rest of the airport.  But I agree if you build more out that way in further gates and terminals some kind of rapid transit might be needed.  

[CLT2014]

3 hours ago, JacksonH said:

And with the future plans to extend Terminal A even further -- and these are called Terminal A extensions in name only because they are really entirely new terminals -- and to also extend B and C, the long walks are going to get much longer.  The thing I love about the Charlotte airport is that the terminals all connect to a main terminal, which seems to be the excuse for not having a tram connecting the terminals, but these very lengthy terminals would seem to justify some sort of tram system.  

Passengers do not have connecting flights from A North to the other concourses, so they just have a reasonable <10 minute walk to baggage claim. Since Frontier, JetBlue, Southwest, and United are the only tenants in A North, none of the passengers are connecting to American Airlines on concourses like D and E. Future expansions in that direction are also planned to be occupied by non-American Airlines tenants like Delta.

Almost none of the passengers would take a train from A North to E unless they had time to kill and wanted to explore the airport, but there are no connecting flights between the A expansion and B, C, D, and E.

Edited January 6, 2019 by CLT2014

[KJHburg]

Chris Winter, MD‏ @SportSleepDoc 1h1 hour ago

More

Long layover at @CLTAirport enroute to #CES2019 , and needed to get some exercise, so did the #CLTchallenge and walked the entire facility. My @WithingsEN #HRSteel was tracking the whole affair. 3.14 miles later, here's the terminal map. #10000Steps resolution intact. #exercise – at Charlotte Douglas International Airport (CLT)   From the CLT twitter page today a doctor with a layover did the CLT Challenge!   Thank goodness most would never walk this far but interesting nonetheless. 

[Guest]

Chris Winter, MD‏ @SportSleepDoc 1h1 hour ago More

Long layover at @CLTAirport enroute to #CES2019 , and needed to get some exercise, so did the #CLTchallenge and walked the entire facility. My @WithingsEN #HRSteel was tracking the whole affair. 3.14 miles later, here's the terminal map. #10000Steps resolution intact. #exercise – at Charlotte Douglas International Airport (CLT)   From the CLT twitter page today a doctor with a layover did the CLT Challenge!   Thank goodness most would never walk this far but interesting nonetheless. 

I am absolutely taking this challenge. Just gotta grab a few beers here and there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Old Carolinian]

"...Since Frontier, JetBlue, Southwest, and United are the only tenants in A North..."     

I recall boarding Air Canada flights a few times out of A North during the last few months...

[CLT2014]

28 minutes ago, Old Carolinian said:

"...Since Frontier, JetBlue, Southwest, and United are the only tenants in A North..."     

I recall boarding Air Canada flights a few times out of A North during the last few months...

Ah yes! Thank you! Air Canada's two daily flights use A North as well, usually gate A29. Those passengers aren't making connections in Charlotte either though and will be destined for baggage claim.

Edited January 8, 2019 by CLT2014

[NikolaTesla]

On 1/5/2019 at 11:16 PM, CLT2014 said:

Passengers do not have connecting flights from A North to the other concourses, so they just have a reasonable <10 minute walk to baggage claim. Since Frontier, JetBlue, Southwest, and United are the only tenants in A North, none of the passengers are connecting to American Airlines on concourses like D and E. Future expansions in that direction are also planned to be occupied by non-American Airlines tenants like Delta.

Almost none of the passengers would take a train from A North to E unless they had time to kill and wanted to explore the airport, but there are no connecting flights between the A expansion and B, C, D, and E.

Is there any data for this?  So none of the passengers coming in via Frontier/Jetblue/SWA/UA/AC will have a second flight on AA?  I get where you are coming from, but i feel like there has to be 5-15% of people that do end up using those carriers as positioning flights into CLT and then continuing on with AA. Just curious if there are any stats out there. 

[KJHburg]

^^^ Just from what I know about flying and codesharing I can't see more than a few and I mean a few flying into Charlotte on a non American Airlines airline then transferring to another airline.  With a Delta hub to our south, a United hub to our north and a Southwest hub in Atlanta also I can't see people doing that.    Who are Lufthansa's code share partners?  Possibly for a few international flights.  

seems Lufthansa is a Star Alliance member which would include United and Air Canada so maybe a United passenger flying into Charlotte from Houston or Chicago or Newark might transfer to the Munich flight (Houston the most likely I would think) but even Houston has a nonstop to Munich. 

Edited January 8, 2019 by KJHburg

[Miesian Corners]

11 hours ago, NikolaTesla said:

Is there any data for this?  So none of the passengers coming in via Frontier/Jetblue/SWA/UA/AC will have a second flight on AA?  I get where you are coming from, but i feel like there has to be 5-15% of people that do end up using those carriers as positioning flights into CLT and then continuing on with AA. Just curious if there are any stats out there. 

Don't know of any stats, but since I've begun using google flights to book, many times I've been presented with "separate ticket" scenarios where you're creating your own interline connection. The only issue with this is the inability to check a bag. 

[KJHburg]

The Triad's PTI airport is the #1 in air cargo in the state mainly due to the FedEx hub there.  CLT is #2

https://www.bizjournals.com/triad/news/2019/01/08/ncdot-pti-contributed-5-9b-25-000-jobs-to-nc.html?ana=e_me_set1&amp;s=newsletter&amp;ed=2019-01-08&amp;u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&amp;t=1546954414&amp;j=85910151

 

[NikolaTesla]

17 minutes ago, Miesian Corners said:

Don't know of any stats, but since I've begun using google flights to book, many times I've been presented with "separate ticket" scenarios where you're creating your own interline connection. The only issue with this is the inability to check a bag. 

Yep there also might be some cost saving with people crafting their own itinerary(using AA and a non AA carrier),  i just have a hunch that the percentage of people that fly into CLT with the non AA carriers and connect ownard is more than people think, especially to Caribbean destinations. 

Edited January 8, 2019 by NikolaTesla

[CLT2014]

16 minutes ago, NikolaTesla said:

Yep, i just have a hunch that the percentage of people that fly into CLT with the non AA carriers and connect ownard is more than people think.  

There are around ~5,000 passengers that arrive into Concourse A North each day on around ~42 daily flights. 10 of these arrivals are after 9:50PM which would exclude those passengers from connecting onward  with American flights with separate tickets. That leaves around ~3,800 passengers that arrive into Concourse A North each day that could possibly make a connection onto a separate airline. 

Let's assume 10% of the 3,800 are connecting on separate tickets, that's only 380 passengers that would maybe want to board a train to go to another concourse . Assume 10% of the 380 had to check a bag so they have to go to baggage claim first (which is a short walk) and re-clear security.  That leaves 342 passengers that might board a train to go to another concourse directly all day from Concourse A North. Over an 18 hour day of the concourse being active, that's only 19 passengers per hour... hardly worth building a train at millions and millions of dollars. It would be more worthwhile to upgrade the bathrooms with gold. 

Further, CLT has one of the highest originating airfare prices in the country. I'm not sure many people would fly to CLT on a non-AA connecting flight to pay $1,500 to fly to London "nonstop" from CLT, when AA's connecting flights are often hundreds less through CLT. Passengers that book separate tickets are trying to get to cities like Boston and New York to fly airlines like Norwegian or Wow Air. Not get to CLT to pay our local nonstop fares that are among the highest in the country. 

Edited January 8, 2019 by CLT2014

[NikolaTesla]

21 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

There are around ~5,000 passengers that arrive into Concourse A North each day on around ~42 daily flights. 10 of these arrivals are after 9:50PM which would exclude those passengers from connecting onward  with American flights with separate tickets. That leaves around ~3,800 passengers that arrive into Concourse A North each day that could possibly make a connection onto a separate airline. 

Let's assume 10% of the 3,800 are connecting on separate tickets, that's only 380 passengers that would maybe want to board a train to go to another concourse . Assume 10% of the 380 had to check a bag so they have to go to baggage claim first (which is a short walk) and re-clear security.  That leaves 342 passengers that might board a train to go to another concourse directly all day from Concourse A North. Over an 18 hour day of the concourse being active, that's only 19 passengers per hour... hardly worth building a train at millions and millions of dollars. It would be more worthwhile to upgrade the bathrooms with gold. 

Further, CLT has one of the highest originating airfare prices in the country. I'm not sure many people would fly to CLT on a non-AA connecting flight to pay $1,500 to fly to London "nonstop" from CLT, when AA's connecting flights are often hundreds less through CLT. Passengers that book separate tickets are trying to get to cities like Boston and New York to fly airlines like Norwegian or Wow Air. Not get to CLT to pay our local nonstop fares that are among the highest in the country. 

Def, I agree with all your saying, you make very good points   The callout  i was trying to make is that  i just figured there had to be some percentage of passengers that did connect, its def not 0.  Nothing significant, but i figured it would be something, was just interested in seeing if there were any stats out there.  Longterm, I think CLT should look at people-mover options. 

Edited January 8, 2019 by NikolaTesla

[CLT2014]

10 minutes ago, NikolaTesla said:

Def, I agree with all your saying, i just figured there had to be some percentage of passengers that did connect, its def not 0.  Nothing significant, but i figured it would be something, was just interested in seeing if there were any stats out there.  Longterm, I CLT should look at people-mover options. 

There aren't any stats readily available as airlines don't track if you arrived on a separate ticket. Some surveys have been done though and 90% of separate tickets actually booked involved one leg on a ultra-low cost carrier like Frontier, Norwegian, Wow Air, Spirit, etc... (which CLT doesn't have much of).  The only time the airline knows about separate tickets is when the passenger comes up to the counter and goes "My flight on United was 1.5 hours late, I was forced to check my bag due to the overhead filling, my bag took a while at claim, security was really long when I re-cleared, and I missed my flight, can I be re-booked please???"

 The American agent then looks at the passenger and goes "Sorry, you will have to buy a new ticket since you weren't connecting with AA or OneWorld. We are happy to put you on the next flight to Detroit for the walk up rate of $850 though."

Edited January 8, 2019 by CLT2014

[NikolaTesla]

6 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

There aren't any stats readily available as airlines don't track if you arrived on a separate ticket. Some surveys have been done though and 90% of separate tickets actually booked involved one leg on a ultra-low cost carrier like Frontier, Norwegian, Wow Air, Spirit, etc... (which CLT doesn't have much of).  The only time the airline knows about separate tickets is when the passenger comes up to the counter and goes "My flight on United was 1.5 hours late, I was forced to check my bag due to the overhead filling, my bag took a while at claim, security was really long when I re-cleared, and I missed my flight, can I be re-booked please???"

 The American agent then looks at the passenger and goes "Sorry, you will have to buy a new ticket since you weren't connecting with AA or OneWorld. We are happy to put you on the next flight to Detroit for the walk up rate of $850 though."

Yep, those super expensive late booked flights haha, we can def agree that its  small percentage of customers that do connect and that CLT with not have a people mover(in general) at the airport any time soon, I would like to see one in the future though, i think it would be worthwhile, especially when the terminals are built out.

Thanks for your input! 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2019 by NikolaTesla

[Miesian Corners]

6 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

There aren't any stats readily available as airlines don't track if you arrived on a separate ticket. Some surveys have been done though and 90% of separate tickets actually booked involved one leg on a ultra-low cost carrier like Frontier, Norwegian, Wow Air, Spirit, etc... (which CLT doesn't have much of).  The only time the airline knows about separate tickets is when the passenger comes up to the counter and goes "My flight on United was 1.5 hours late, I was forced to check my bag due to the overhead filling, my bag took a while at claim, security was really long when I re-cleared, and I missed my flight, can I be re-booked please???"

 The American agent then looks at the passenger and goes "Sorry, you will have to buy a new ticket since you weren't connecting with AA or OneWorld. We are happy to put you on the next flight to Detroit for the walk up rate of $850 though."

All very true. But I've created my own interline connections three times now without issue (once through DEN and the other times through SLC). Saved a ton. Much like flying Allegiant, it's not for everyone, but if you're willing to risk it... 

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, Miesian Corners said:

All very true. But I've created my own interline connections three times now without issue (once through DEN and the other times through SLC). Saved a ton. Much like flying Allegiant, it's not for everyone, but if you're willing to risk it... 

Just out of curiosity... Any chance those legs involved low cost carriers like Frontier and Southwest which have big operations at DEN and SLC? The incentive to do separate tickets is much higher if you are grabbing $69 one way fares on a LCC. With LCC's having such a small share of flights and American being typically more expensive for nonstops from CLT, I would guess the separate ticket situation is lower here than other airports. If anything, people in CLT are looking at separate tickets through other cities at a higher rate to avoid our high nonstop air fares.

Edited January 8, 2019 by CLT2014

[JFerreira91]

The route I'll be doing from London to Charlotte in a couple of days times is:

• London - NY (Norweian)
• NY - CLT (Delta)

And the same plan to return to London. It was the cheapest option I could find through SkyScanner.

Was there any other optional (cheap) route to get to Charlotte? .. I've tried London - Orlando and then doing a road trip to Charlotte. I know, that one is long but very enjoyable if you like sightseeing.

Also, any recommendation/precaution when I'm arriving/leaving at the CLT airport? I did not follow this thread from a long time.

[CLT2014]

16 minutes ago, Jeanf1991 said:

The route I'll be doing from London to Charlotte in a couple of days times is:

• London - NY (Norweian)
• NY - CLT (Delta)

And the same plan to return to London. It was the cheapest option I could find through SkyScanner.

Was there any other optional (cheap) route to get to Charlotte? .. I've tried London - Orlando and then doing a road trip to Charlotte. I know, that one is long but very enjoyable if you like sightseeing.

Also, any recommendation/precaution when I'm arriving/leaving at the CLT airport? I did not follow this thread from a long time.

I hope you have a great visit to Charlotte! Your flight on Delta will arrive at Concourse A. Just follow the signs to Baggage Claim / Exit, where you can catch your ground transportation. You could take a taxi or get the Uber or Lyft apps on your phone and book a ride share from the airport. If you are getting a rental car, you just have to walk across the street from baggage claim (follow signs). 

CLT will be the easy part of your trip. Your connection at New York - JFK will be a little more complicated. Norwegian will arrive at Terminal 1, retrieve your bags (if checked), clear US customs, then take the AirTrain from Terminal 1 to Terminal 2 or to Terminal 4 to get to Delta Air Lines. If you are checking bags, you will check them in with Delta at Terminal 2 or Terminal 4. You will then re-clear TSA security using your Delta boarding pass and enter Terminal 2 or Terminal 4. How long are your connection times at JFK? 

You might consider a trip insurance plan that would protect you in the event of delays. If you miss your connections, the airline does not have to put you on the next flight since they are separate tickets. 

Edited January 8, 2019 by CLT2014

[JFerreira91]

12 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

I hope you have a great visit to Charlotte! Your flight on Delta will arrive at Concourse A. Just follow the signs to Baggage Claim / Exit, where you can catch your ground transportation. You could take a taxi or get the Uber or Lyft apps on your phone and book a ride share from the airport. If you are getting a rental car, you just have to walk across the street from baggage claim (follow signs). 

CLT will be the easy part of your trip. Your connection at New York - JFK will be a little more complicated. Norwegian will arrive at Terminal 1, retrieve your bags (if checked), clear US customs, then take the AirTrain from Terminal 1 to Terminal 2 or to Terminal 4 to get to Delta Air Lines. If you are checking bags, you will check them in with Delta at Terminal 2 or Terminal 4. You will then re-clear TSA security using your Delta boarding pass and enter Terminal 2 or Terminal 4. How long are your connection times at JFK? 

You might consider a trip insurance plan that would protect you in the event of delays. If you miss your connections, the airline does not have to put you on the next flight since they are separate tickets. 

Phew, you know your thing.

Flight to CLT will be the day after, so there won't be a problem with connections, same for the return. Also, My dad will pick me up at CLT airport more likely, so I think I will follow the Exit as you said.

Thanks, I always love to go to Charlotte, for sure I will enjoy this time again.

[CLT2014]

2 minutes ago, Jeanf1991 said:

Phew, you know your thing.

Flight to CLT will be the day after, so there won't be a problem with connections, same for the return. Also, My dad will pick me up at CLT airport more likely, so I think I will follow the Exit as you said.

Thanks, I always love to go to Charlotte, for sure I will enjoy this time again.

You'll be good to go then! Have a great trip! 

[QCxpat]

From today's CBJ (01/08/2019) - $23 Billion Impact on State's Economy, by Jen Wilson, CBJ.   "... Charlotte Douglas International Airport contributed $23 billion to the state economy in 2017, according to figures released yesterday afternoon by the N.C. Department of Transportation.  In addition, CLT puts $1.1 billion into state and local tax coffers while providing 132,330 jobs, and $5.7 billion in personal income, according to the report, titled "North Carolina: The State of Aviation."

https://www.ncdot.gov/divisions/aviation/Documents/state-of-aviation.pdf - NCDOT: The State of Aviation

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2019/01/08/cbj-morning-buzz-clt-drives-23b-impact-in-nc-local.html

Edited January 8, 2019 by QCxpat
Include CBJ links

[CLT704]

 

Sorry to hijack the thread but the always reliable for AA news JonNYC on twitter has said AA is going to launch more London Heathrow service for a while now. To add fuel to the fire, AA has freed up an A333, which only operates from CLT and PHL, so my guess is that we could be in line for more LHR service!!  That or Philadelphia.

It may not be the sexiest Euro destination or BA but having 3 daily flights to London would be awesome! 

Edited January 8, 2019 by CLT704

[CltFlyer]

I just ran the stats today.  As of next Summer here is the TATL usage for A330's (200/300)

A332's

PHL: 

Year Round- DUB, MAD, CDG, ( MAN is currently on A332 but it will be on a 763 next summer).

Summer Seasonal - BCN, VCE, PRG

CLT: 

Year Round- FRA, MUC

Summer Seasonal BCN, DUB, MAD, CDG

Usage 12/15 

This winter AA is running 2x daily A330's on PHL- SFO/CLT/MCO and 1x daily on PHL- LAX to make up for some of the winter slack.  CLT-PUJ right now also sees an A332 in the winter, but it is our only wide body Caribbean flight this year.

Lately AA has been running 1 daily PHL- LAX/SFO in the summer as well that would account for some of the slack.  There could be room to grow though.  I could see CLT-MAD going year round.   I could also see the return of CLT-GRU (Sao Paulo, Brazil) which would use 2 and be year round.

A333's

PHL: 

Year Round- LHR x2, FCO

Summer Seasonal- ATH

CLT:

Year Round- LHR x2

Summer Seasonal- FCO

Usage 7/9

A fair amount of slack here especially given they are nearing the end of their lifespan( retired by 2023?)

Currently, in the winter one is used on CLT-PHX-HNL.  I could also see them replacing some of the aforementioned domestic routes or PUJ  if they wanted to use the A332's for more long haul flights.

CLT should be able to support a 3rd daily LHR in the summer.  With current availability it could be done on an A333, or more hopefully through BA on a 777 and they could take over one of the two daily LHR's in the winter.

 

 

Edited January 8, 2019 by CltFlyer

[Miesian Corners]

I've been told that all AA LHR service will be on 777s beginning in 2020. It's part of the airline's "keep it simple" approach to maintenance (one aircraft type for one city).

 

3 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

Just out of curiosity... Any chance those legs involved low cost carriers like Frontier and Southwest which have big operations at DEN and SLC? The incentive to do separate tickets is much higher if you are grabbing $69 one way fares on a LCC. With LCC's having such a small share of flights and American being typically more expensive for nonstops from CLT, I would guess the separate ticket situation is lower here than other airports. If anything, people in CLT are looking at separate tickets through other cities at a higher rate to avoid our high nonstop air fares.

I flew UA to DEN and then made a connection of Frontier. I flew DL to SLC and connected on Alaska.