Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[DEnd]

Yeah, I don't get the argument that the region should have a say, even a consultative one.  Why should they?  You want a say, move to the city.  Otherwise, be happy and thankful that you live close to a major city with a fantastic airport...or fly out of Hickory Regional. 

 

Why should they? Because airport decisions affect them.  Be it costs of operations, noise requirements, flight paths, etc... 

 

There is a ton of screw Charlotte mentality in the region, and the only way to counteract that is to engage the region.  If Charlotte fails to do that, then it is doomed.  Over half of the population of the Charlotte metro region lives outside of its borders, that is a powerful force that can be exerted at the state level.  A giant can easily be overcome by a large group of midgets.  So what would Charlotte rather do: spend its time and energy in a useless fight that damages the entire region, or work with its neighbors to strengthen the region as a whole?

[ah59396]

Why should they? Because airport decisions affect them. Be it costs of operations, noise requirements, flight paths, etc...

There is a ton of screw Charlotte mentality in the region, and the only way to counteract that is to engage the region. If Charlotte fails to do that, then it is doomed. Over half of the population of the Charlotte metro region lives outside of its borders, that is a powerful force that can be exerted at the state level. A giant can easily be overcome by a large group of midgets. So what would Charlotte rather do: spend its time and energy in a useless fight that damages the entire region, or work with its neighbors to strengthen the region as a whole?

It appears our opinion on the matter differs. I find the fight anything but useless.

[DEnd]

It appears our opinion on the matter differs. I find the fight anything but useless.

 

It ultimately is even if Charlotte wins (which I really hope they do) or loses, because it just embitters legislators further against the city.  (I viewed Bill Brawley as pretty anti-Charlotte even back when I went to church with him as a teenager, this fight just sets in further his feeling that he is right).  I'm not so much concerned about him, as this fight has damaged his chances at re-election. However the issue doesn't much matter to voters outside of Charlotte, and the fight damages Charlotte's relationship with the state GOP.  No matter which way you slice it the NCGOP is going to be a powerful political force that the city is going to have to contend with for quite a while.  It is much better for the city to have them be able to listen to what the city needs, rather than dismiss those needs out of hand.

[ah59396]

It ultimately is even if Charlotte wins (which I really hope they do) or loses, because it just embitters legislators further against the city. (I viewed Bill Brawley as pretty anti-Charlotte even back when I went to church with him as a teenager, this fight just sets in further his feeling that he is right). I'm not so much concerned about him, as this fight has damaged his chances at re-election. However the issue doesn't much matter to voters outside of Charlotte, and the fight damages Charlotte's relationship with the state GOP. No matter which way you slice it the NCGOP is going to be a powerful political force that the city is going to have to contend with for quite a while. It is much better for the city to have them be able to listen to what the city needs, rather than dismiss those needs out of hand.

While I understand your reasoning, I think the NCGOP is doing enough to alienate themselves from the moderate voting base of NC, that put them in office. Many, like myself, voted for the likes of McCrory under the guise of the promise of moderate conservatism, not radical conservatism. They've left a bitter taste in my mouth and I intend to let them know by voting them out of office beginning in 2014.

Additionally, while compromise in politics is imperative; I feel abandoning a core belief like maintaining small government (a la our airport controlled by us), simply due to the fear of not stepping on the GOP's toes is a mistake.

This is politics. Bending over backwards to make Raleigh happy will not do us any favors in the future. Give them an inch and they will take a mile, I assure you.

Edited August 7, 2013 by ah59396

[Miesian Corners]

DEnd, tell me again what Charlotte-Mecklenburg gets by of giving up control of the entire western half of of the city and county?  What are the suburban counties giving Charlotte-Mecklenburg a say or control over?  Nothing?  OK.

 

Let me be clear, I am not against an aviation authority.  The RDU Authority works pretty well, but its run by people from Raleigh, Durham, and Wake and Durham counties.  Not Johnston,Orange, Harnett, Franklin, or Chatham counties.  Not the municipalities of Siler City, or Chapel Hill, or Knightdale.  http://rdu.com/authority/rduaa-board.html

 

And let's face it, we all know the real reason this is happening.  The GOP is trying its damnedest to weaken cities in our state.  Look no further than the Asheville Water debacle.  

Edited August 7, 2013 by Miesian Corners

[49er]

You have to wonder if our water system is next? I know that CMUD supplies water to some parts of western Union county so it's a "regional" asset. 

[dubone]

Unfortunately it is a growth out of the fact that more and more city residents are overwhelmingly Democrats.  Conservatives tend to want to live in the outskirts or countryside away from other types of people and away from environments where collective infrastructure (provided by government in our social contract) and tolerance of other kinds of people is required.  I'm sure there are countless other theories on why it is, but now that it is a demographic fact, political scientist and the Ham Rove Turd Blossoms of the country will bring governing Republican to starve cities and add as much power as possible to the exurbs. 

 

There is no question about it that this a vendetta that Charlotte republicans have after serving as a minority in local government once they have power at a higher level.  This is not based on some technical recommendation. 

[DEnd]

DEnd, tell me again what Charlotte-Mecklenburg gets by of giving up control of the entire western half of of the city and county?  What are the suburban counties giving Charlotte-Mecklenburg a say or control over?  Nothing?  OK.

 

And let's face it, we all know the real reason this is happening.  The GOP is trying its damnedest to weaken cities in our state.  Look no further than the Asheville Water debacle.  

 

I'm not saying Charlotte would give up any control, but rather it should allow the region to at least have input during the process.  What Charlotte gains by doing that (at levels of regional infrastructure) is it creates less of an atmosphere of City vs. the Suburbs.  If that type of atmosphere is not combatted it is disastrous to both parties (look at Detroit, St. Louis, Atlanta, etc...).  The need for regional and mega-regional cooperation is not optional, if Charlotte is to continue thriving. Reducing the atmosphere of City Vs. the Suburbs is way more valuable than having absolute control over the airport. 

 

I agree with you on the reasoning, but their efforts can be made pointless if the region as a whole is able to say what is best for it.  The city would have been in a much better place politically if the surrounding areas would have at least had a voice, not necessarily any control but at least a voice, in airport control.

[ssh214]

I just read a massive thread on stupid airliners.net and it got me very worried about Charlotte's hub status... With all of mess that is going on with the authority of the airport it just really seems like terrible timing. One of the main arguments that caught my attention was the rising costs that will hit Charlotte once the merger goes through. US operates with very little costs but merging with American will place a burden on the existing US hubs. It just does not make sense to keep all of the Latin American destinations for starters and with less traffic coming in the number of flights to other cities where those connecting passengers were coming from to go to Latin America will be reduced. Also, the forum was discussing beginning African routes from Miami such as Johannesburg. I hope they are wrong but they bring up some valid points that cannot be overlooked. September cannot come soon enough when this merger becomes official and we can learn what will happen instead of just speculating like I am doing right now 

[15895]

^ one thing they fail to neglect..... Which boggles my mind....is that higher operating cost doesn't mean the airport with by far the lowest cost will be reduced. If I had higher cost, I certaintly wouldn't begin reducing business at my place with The lowest cost.

B - the traffic that Miami will steal from CLT will be minimal. The only destinations that would be in danger are seasonal, weekend flights on small airbus aircraft.

C - American provides US with a larger system which makes new routes Possible from Charlotte. Like Oklahoma City or other American destinations. Makes no sense to only have flights from Charlotte, but when you have LA, Dallas, Chicago and New York, makes sense to add Charlotte. Charlotte also can get more gulf coast American cities.

Those are the same folks who think Alaska & Delta will merge. Ignore the kids on there. Charlottes not going anywhere as a hub. It will gain flights. We might lose some prestigious flights, but I think we'll grow more than shrink.

And to About regionalism, Charlotte is not the one who made this into a City vs. suburbs. Raleigh is not a Charlotte suburb (which would have had 2 picks for the authorities). Charlotte did not call Raleigh arrogant. Charlotte did not say Raleigh is unqualified to run an airport. Charlotte Did not say all Raleigh had were Water Balloons. Charlotte was blind-sighted, betrayed, and stabbed in the back. This is a vandetta against Charlotte, a punishment, a slap in the face and a power grab.

I wish people would stop thinking we started this. It's frustrating how before McCrory got into office, we did our thing. We minded or business, we dreamed big dreams, we had ambitious plans. Now, they're making our citizens doubt our own dreams.

Why don't the citizens of Charlotte have a say in our airport. Everyone's so worried about Jerry frickin Orr and his delusions and about Tillis, Rucho... But no one cares about the voters.

This was malicious from the start. There was no good intent ever, there was never good will from the start. If this is city vs. suburbs, the Suburbs started it and they've escalated it and they ruined regional cooperation. Yet somehow, Charlottes not cooperating?

Edited August 8, 2013 by AirNostrumMAD

[DEnd]

And to About regionalism, Charlotte is not the one who made this into a City vs. suburbs. Raleigh is not a Charlotte suburb (which would have had 2 picks for the authorities). Charlotte did not call Raleigh arrogant. Charlotte did not say Raleigh is unqualified to run an airport. Charlotte Did not say all Raleigh had were Water Balloons. Charlotte was blind-sighted, betrayed, and stabbed in the back. This is a vandetta against Charlotte, a punishment, a slap in the face and a power grab.

This was malicious from the start. There was no good intent ever, there was never good will from the start. If this is city vs. suburbs, the Suburbs started it and they've escalated it and they ruined regional cooperation. Yet somehow, Charlottes not cooperating?

 

I wish you would say the legislature, It's not quite fair to the good citizens of Raleigh to unintentionally equate them to that body of political feces that is more concerned with getting support from national conservative groups than supporting their constituents.

 

I'm not saying it wasn't malicious from the start.  But that doesn't keep the city from exercising good judgment.  That good judgment is recognizing that the Airport is vastly import for the region and as such the region needs a way to have its issues heard.  The state forcing an solution down Charlotte's throat isn't the answer, nor is Charlotte ignoring the region the answer.

[jme3]

I just read a massive thread on stupid airliners.net and it got me very worried about Charlotte's hub status... With all of mess that is going on with the authority of the airport it just really seems like terrible timing. One of the main arguments that caught my attention was the rising costs that will hit Charlotte once the merger goes through. US operates with very little costs but merging with American will place a burden on the existing US hubs. It just does not make sense to keep all of the Latin American destinations for starters and with less traffic coming in the number of flights to other cities where those connecting passengers were coming from to go to Latin America will be reduced. Also, the forum was discussing beginning African routes from Miami such as Johannesburg. I hope they are wrong but they bring up some valid points that cannot be overlooked. September cannot come soon enough when this merger becomes official and we can learn what will happen instead of just speculating like I am doing right now 

 

It seems that many of those who post on airliners.net are armchair experts at best, and a lot of them are "fanboy" kids who have dreams of their favorite airline or city dominating the world, so they use all kinds of circuitous logic to support their theories...  I'm curious, though, as you have expressed concerns about US Airways'  and AA's (potentially rising) costs having some sort of impact on Charlotte Douglas.  What would either of those have to do with what it costs to do business at Charlotte?  The cost of business at the airport is a direct result of how efficiently and effectively the airport is run from within and not the internal workings of the airlines themselves which Douglas has no influence over, no?

[stiluvclt]

This is slightly off point. Just wondering if anyone has access to new construction pictures beyond the airport website. Also what is the status of the Little Rock Road connection to the new terminal entrance?

[cltbwimob]

^^^Agreed. The line of thinking goes that if costs rise, then the airline will have no choice but to focus its efforts in large cities such as NY and LA. The problem with that idea is that it ignores what aspects of rising costs are affected by the airport vis a vis the airline itself. Additionally it ignores how revenue advantages versus cost advantages factor into the overall profitability of a hub and by extension, the airline. In the case of US/AA, the biggest additional cost will be labor which is more or less a fixed cost at a macro level and has little to do with airports themselves. For example, a captain for an A320 will make the same amount regardless of whether he is based in Charlotte or Miami. Where the equation changes is revenue versus cost. Hubs such as MIA and DFW command a larger revenue premium than CLT but are at a distinct cost disadvantage to CLT. That plays into CLTs favor by allowing the lower revenue connecting masses to connect through Charlotte rather than the higher cost airports.

Another way to think about it is this...with labor/ fuel costs being held constant across the airline, there is more opportunity to create a profitable connection business by funneling connecting passengers through the lowest cost hub which is CLT. It makes no sense for the airline to reroute the 30 million connecting passengers that typically go through CLT to Miami where market forces dictate the per passenger fee for usage is literally an order of magnitude higher than Charlotte's. Doing so would cost the airline hundreds of millions of dollars and would tend to decrease profits which is in direct contradiction of any merger's purpose. These facts are often ignored by the 17 year old fanboys and those who have very little understanding of economics: i.e. airliners.net subscribers.

Edited August 8, 2013 by cltbwimob

[jme3]

^Thanks for that explanation.     I am admittedly not an expert on the economics of running an airline, but to my way of thinking it just seems logical that an airline, if saddled with high costs, would look for a less-costly locale for doing business as opposed to one with fundamentally high costs.  I've made a stop or two over at airliners.net and the reasoning there blows my mind, e.g. Miami making for a better domestic hub than Charlotte.  Go figure!   :lol

[skymiler]

Off topic just a bit, but flew through Charlotte this week and was curious about one thing.

Does any other US airport have tip jars and employee's stationed in the restrooms to hand you paper towels?

What does everyone think about that? I personally think it cheapens a great airport. I'm a former Charlottean and take a lot of pride in my home town. I think a lot of the restrooms in the terminal need some upgrades as well.

Back to more recent topics.....hope the whole airport authority is resolved (favorably) for the city soon. Also, I don't feel threatened by Miami or the new merger eliminating CLT as a hub as long as current US Airway officials remain in charge.

[ah59396]

Off topic just a bit, but flew through Charlotte this week and was curious about one thing.

Does any other US airport have tip jars and employee's stationed in the restrooms to hand you paper towels?

What does everyone think about that? I personally think it cheapens a great airport. I'm a former Charlottean and take a lot of pride in my home town. I think a lot of the restrooms in the terminal need some upgrades as well.

Back to more recent topics.....hope the whole airport authority is resolved (favorably) for the city soon. Also, I don't feel threatened by Miami or the new merger eliminating CLT as a hub as long as current US Airway officials remain in charge.

I think it makes the airport look like a b-level dance club. One of the worst moments in my life is turning a corner into a bathroom and seeing some dude posted up next to some mints and aqua velva. Let me go to the bathroom in peace.

[ssh214]

It seems that many of those who post on airliners.net are armchair experts at best, and a lot of them are "fanboy" kids who have dreams of their favorite airline or city dominating the world, so they use all kinds of circuitous logic to support their theories...  I'm curious, though, as you have expressed concerns about US Airways'  and AA's (potentially rising) costs having some sort of impact on Charlotte Douglas.  What would either of those have to do with what it costs to do business at Charlotte?  The cost of business at the airport is a direct result of how efficiently and effectively the airport is run from within and not the internal workings of the airlines themselves which Douglas has no influence over, no?

 

 

^^^Agreed. The line of thinking goes that if costs rise, then the airline will have no choice but to focus its efforts in large cities such as NY and LA. The problem with that idea is that it ignores what aspects of rising costs are affected by the airport vis a vis the airline itself. Additionally it ignores how revenue advantages versus cost advantages factor into the overall profitability of a hub and by extension, the airline. In the case of US/AA, the biggest additional cost will be labor which is more or less a fixed cost at a macro level and has little to do with airports themselves. For example, a captain for an A320 will make the same amount regardless of whether he is based in Charlotte or Miami. Where the equation changes is revenue versus cost. Hubs such as MIA and DFW command a larger revenue premium than CLT but are at a distinct cost disadvantage to CLT. That plays into CLTs favor by allowing the lower revenue connecting masses to connect through Charlotte rather than the higher cost airports.

Another way to think about it is this...with labor/ fuel costs being held constant across the airline, there is more opportunity to create a profitable connection business by funneling connecting passengers through the lowest cost hub which is CLT. It makes no sense for the airline to reroute the 30 million connecting passengers that typically go through CLT to Miami where market forces dictate the per passenger fee for usage is literally an order of magnitude higher than Charlotte's. Doing so would cost the airline hundreds of millions of dollars and would tend to decrease profits which is in direct contradiction of any merger's purpose. These facts are often ignored by the 17 year old fanboys and those who have very little understanding of economics: i.e. airliners.net subscribers.

 

I agree with everything you guys are saying, but until something happens I cannot help but to a little uneasy about the whole situation until it actually gets resolved (maybe my uneasiness is coming from a personal side as I am uneasy about everything right now because of my GMAT exam on Monday...). I like the example of Minneapolis and Detroit for an example of what Charlotte could be in the new American and I even see a little bit of Denver with United in the way American is set up. My biggest contention is that Charlotte will lose a good bit of Latin American flights and would have very little ceiling for growth for traveling south of the border because of the presence of Miami, which would ultimately adversely impact the airport. The growth potential for Charlotte under a standalone US is a lot higher than that of the new American.

 

In terms of jme3's point about the cost of doing business in Charlotte, you bring up a good point in that it won't effect the cost of doing business because airline tickets are already high with US from Charlotte as is. I almost had to book myself a flight to go to Dallas for a convention in Oklahoma City on Tuesday with the itinerary of driving to Raleigh from Charlotte, flying back to Charlotte, and then going to Dallas because it was going to save me $300 (I ended up booking a flight with United to connect in Houston and flying to OKC because of time restraints). 

 

In a way on the topic of United in the off chance something does happen to the status of the hub with Charlotte I could see in a crazy alternate world United almost immediately bolstering its position in Charlotte and sort of picking up the pieces... They have a huge gap in the Southeast and only have Houston and DC anywhere near Charlotte... (I know this is serious crazy talk)

Edited August 8, 2013 by saamh

[CltFlyer]

I agree with everything you guys are saying, but until something happens I cannot help but to a little uneasy about the whole situation until it actually gets resolved (maybe my uneasiness is coming from a personal side as I am uneasy about everything right now because of my GMAT exam on Monday...). I like the example of Minneapolis and Detroit for an example of what Charlotte could be in the new American and I even see a little bit of Denver with United in the way American is set up. My biggest contention is that Charlotte will lose a good bit of Latin American flights and would have very little ceiling for growth for traveling south of the border because of the presence of Miami, which would ultimately adversely impact the airport. The growth potential for Charlotte under a standalone US is a lot higher than that of the new American.

 

In terms of jme3's point about the cost of doing business in Charlotte, you bring up a good point in that it won't effect the cost of doing business because airline tickets are already high with US from Charlotte as is. I almost had to book myself a flight to go to Dallas for a convention in Oklahoma City on Tuesday with the itinerary of driving to Raleigh from Charlotte, flying back to Charlotte, and then going to Dallas because it was going to save me $300 (I ended up booking a flight with United to connect in Houston and flying to OKC because of time restraints). 

 

In a way on the topic of United in the off chance something does happen to the status of the hub with Charlotte I could see in a crazy alternate world United almost immediately bolstering its position in Charlotte and sort of picking up the pieces... They have a huge gap in the Southeast and only have Houston and DC anywhere near Charlotte... (I know this is serious crazy talk)

nothing is wrong with being like those hubs, but we have a lot more mainline and intl flights than Dtw, Msp, and Den that i would hate to lose.  Dtw is crj city now, its disgusting.  I'd hate to see that happen to CLT.

[15895]

Also though, the big cities have a lot more competition. American will be #4 in NYC on too of New York sucks as a domestic connecting hub, but also there's a lot of international competition also.

Another advantage CLT has.

[HopHead]

Off topic just a bit, but flew through Charlotte this week and was curious about one thing.

Does any other US airport have tip jars and employee's stationed in the restrooms to hand you paper towels?

What does everyone think about that? I personally think it cheapens a great airport. I'm a former Charlottean and take a lot of pride in my home town. I think a lot of the restrooms in the terminal need some upgrades as well.

Back to more recent topics.....hope the whole airport authority is resolved (favorably) for the city soon. Also, I don't feel threatened by Miami or the new merger eliminating CLT as a hub as long as current US Airway officials remain in charge.

 

While I agree the employee with a tip jar cheapens the airport a bit, CLT is far from the only one that permits it. I don't fly every week like I used to, but back when I did (just a few years ago), I'd say probably at least a 1/3 if not more of the airports I flew to had this in their restrooms. Particularly ones on the western part of the country. 

[DEnd]

While I agree the employee with a tip jar cheapens the airport a bit, CLT is far from the only one that permits it. I don't fly every week like I used to, but back when I did (just a few years ago), I'd say probably at least a 1/3 if not more of the airports I flew to had this in their restrooms. Particularly ones on the western part of the country. 

 

I noticed the attendants raised the level of cleanliness in the restrooms. As long as that is the primary focus of the attendant I have no problem with them (and the few times I've been in the airport lately that has been their main focus).

[southslider]

With the airline merger, I had hoped the term "Hillbilly Philly" would die. But it seems the Repugnicans (unfair to say "Raleigh") are trying to keep such reputation alive. Not only would the takeover appease the deeply rural partisans, but they'd rehire Orr as "Head Hick."

[Bikeguy]

I noticed the attendants raised the level of cleanliness in the restrooms. As long as that is the primary focus of the attendant I have no problem with them (and the few times I've been in the airport lately that has been their main focus).

 

I believe the attendants are all from Lifespan http://www.lifespanservices.org, an organization that finds employment opportunities for their 400+ associates with developmental disabilities. I have always found them courteous, and fastidious in keeping the restrooms clean.     

[dubone]

On the bathroom attendants, I think it is only a matter of guilt or discomfort for the moments when you don't want to find money in your pocket to tip. Otherwise, they seem to make bathrooms a little nicer and offer a convenience if you do need something extra.   I try to think of these things in terms of jobs, but I feel extra tolerant of it knowing it is for developmentally disabled people.

 

It isn't like in many European countries (not their airports) where you are required to pay a fee to the cleaning person before using a bathroom.   This is purely a case of optional tipping.