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Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion


uptownliving

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With the airline merger, I had hoped the term "Hillbilly Philly" would die. But it seems the Repugnicans (unfair to say "Raleigh") are trying to keep such reputation alive. Not only would the takeover appease the deeply rural partisans, but they'd rehire Orr as "Head Hick."

 

hehe, i've never heard that term. i kinda like it.

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While I agree the employee with a tip jar cheapens the airport a bit, CLT is far from the only one that permits it. I don't fly every week like I used to, but back when I did (just a few years ago), I'd say probably at least a 1/3 if not more of the airports I flew to had this in their restrooms. Particularly ones on the western part of the country.

I travel weekly. Can't think of another airport where I've seen this. In regards to western airports, I've flown through Denver, Colorado Springs, Phoenix, Las Vegas, San Diego and San Francisco's airports. I don't remember seeing it there.

I noticed the attendants raised the level of cleanliness in the restrooms. As long as that is the primary focus of the attendant I have no problem with them (and the few times I've been in the airport lately that has been their main focus).

I couldn't tell CLTs was any cleaner than the other airports. As heavily traveled as ATL is, their bathrooms seem just as clean to me.

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While I understand and appreciate what LIfespan and the Airport are trying to do, the rest room attendants kinda creep me out.  I've even overheard conversations among passengers in boarding lounges stating the very same thing.  

Yea they are creepy. I don't want someone standing in the bathroom listening to me do my business in there. That is kind of gross.

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In terms of jme3's point about the cost of doing business in Charlotte, you bring up a good point in that it won't effect the cost of doing business because airline tickets are already high with US from Charlotte as is. I almost had to book myself a flight to go to Dallas for a convention in Oklahoma City on Tuesday with the itinerary of driving to Raleigh from Charlotte, flying back to Charlotte, and then going to Dallas because it was going to save me $300 (I ended up booking a flight with United to connect in Houston and flying to OKC because of time restraints). 

Expensive as opposed to what?  Driving?  Airfares are the one thing in this country that haven't kept up with the cost of inflation.  My mom paid $204 for to fly me on Eastern Airlines from CLT to DCA in 1976.  I could buy a ticket for the same city pair for less today.  Yet in that same time period, the cost of everything else has risen exponentially.  Why is aviation the only industry consumers forget to include when adjusting for inflation?

Edited by Miesian Corners
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Expensive as opposed to what?  Driving?  Airfares are the one thing in this country that haven't kept up with the cost of inflation.  My mom paid $204 for to fly me on Eastern Airlines from CLT to DCA in 1976.  I could buy a ticket for the same city pair for less today.  Yet in that same time period, the cost of everything else has risen exponentially.  Why is aviation the only industry consumers forget to include when adjusting for inflation?

 

Well I'm 23 so that's why I think it's expensive as opposed to what it was a few years ago; also I was raised in California so the prices for flights were a lot cheaper then out of Charlotte. I always flew either out LAX or SNA

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Curious as to what will happen to the AA RDU - LHR flight once the US/AA merger goes through Any thoughts?h

People say they will be kept because of corporate contracts. As long as the corporate contracts are there, I guess it will be kept. As soon as the flight doesn't have Garanteed revenue, it will be gone.

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Uhhm : Justice Dept, states challenge proposed $11 billion airline merger

 

Just saw this as breaking news on WashPost.  Isn't this sort of out of left field after 6 months?

 

Especially after approving UA/CO, DL/NW and especially WN/FL (the latter with nary a peep because golden child Southwest can do no wrong)

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Spent the weekend dropping off and picking people up at the airport. What a mess! I hope those new parking decks will be done soon because it'a nightmare up there right now. My guests mentioned that it was easily the worst airport they've ever been to. Besides the obvious parking deck issues, the security lines are the slowest and most understaffed of any airport they've seen. Are there plans to redesign the interior of the airport?

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OK - a question on DOJ action (and effects) for those more in the know.   From what I've been reading in various publications a lot has to do with cities where the merged airline will control the overwhelming majority of flights at the respective airport.

 

Considering that this all seems to be catching everyone by surprise including most respected aviation analysts - could this all be simply a maneuver to get the combined airline to forgo overwhelming majority control at certain airports.  And my subsequent question would be - if that is a yes, could this all result in more carriers entering CLT?

 

EDIT:  Or maybe not - Seems like Washington DC Slots are what is behind this.  Bloomberg reported that the combined airline is fighting giving up spots and then there is this BusinessWeek article.

Edited by Urbanity
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OK - a question on DOJ action (and effects) for those more in the know.   From what I've been reading in various publications a lot has to do with cities where the merged airline will control the overwhelming majority of flights at the respective airport.

 

Considering that this all seems to be catching everyone by surprise including most respected aviation analysts - could this all be simply a maneuver to get the combined airline to forgo overwhelming majority control at certain airports.  And my subsequent question would be - if that is a yes, could this all result in more carriers entering CLT?

 

EDIT:  Or maybe not - Seems like Washington DC Slots are what is behind this.  Bloomberg reported that the combined airline is fighting giving up spots and then there is this BusinessWeek article.

CLT doesn't matter one iota.  This whole thing just reeks.  DL/NW, UA/CO, HP/FL (Southwest/Airtran) all get passed with not a single problem.  Now the DOJ is effectively saying "the only reason we're opposing this one is that this is the last possible merger". THATS NOT A LEGITIMATE REASON!

 

And as for the states attorneys general that have filed with the DOJ against the merger, they're all states governed by the GOP.  Where are the "let the free market decide" banners from them in this affair of private enterprise?    

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Rather than just being a hiccup in the merger process, it seems the DoJ lawsuit may be more of a problem... 

 

It's been exciting to think of the possibilities for Charlotte that could or might (and may yet still...) come about with a merger with AA, but I have to wax a bit logical in saying that Charlotte's

best chances would very likely be with a US Airways that remains independent, and one that hopefully would have the management skill and foresight to grow the airline from within and be competitive on its own.  As it stands now, Charlotte is undoubtedly the primary operation for US Airways, and a very large one at that, and even if a merger with AA is good for US Airways, there is no clear proof that it would be for Charlotte; there's only hopeful optimism at best.  Business executives make all sorts of great sounding overtures when they're in the throes of dealmaking, but very often afterwards the reality is something different.  One very notable area of concern for a merged US/AA is Latin/South America and the huge presence of AA in Miami.  With a merger going through, it's almost a foregone conclusion that the great strides Charlotte has made with US Airways in Latin and South America would eventually be overshadowed by the hub in Miami.  The business case for maintaining separate US hubs for entry into Latin and South America is tenuous at best, and my guess is that Miami would likely be the hub of choice for these flights.  While the cost of doing business within Charlotte may be cheaper than doing so in Miami, and even though Miami would never make a logical domestic hub, the large and profitable operation that AA has in Miami is where the center of gravity is for Latin and South America, so there's really no case for any, let alone all, of that transferring to Charlotte with such relatively small O&D numbers.  European operations may prove somewhat better down the road for Charlotte with Philadelphia presenting US with some headaches recently with their very costly expansion ambitions, but then again, there would be several more US/AA hubs to compete with post-merger, so how that would pan out is anybody's guess.

 

Some contend that the fallout of a rejected US/AA merger is that US then becomes a sitting duck for the other two big airlines.  Unless they wanted to be the king of all hypocrites, though, I can't see the DoJ allowing that considering their own arguments now about this being an issue of anti-competition.  Again, I think if the merger is declined and US plays its cards right going forward, it could still be a successful, competitive airline that continues to pack quite a punch in and from Charlotte.  It will be interesting to see how this unfolds... 

Edited by jme3
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Rather than just being a hiccup in the merger process, it seems the DoJ lawsuit may be more of a problem... 

 

It's been exciting to think of the possibilities for Charlotte that could or might (and may yet still...) come about with a merger with AA, but I have to wax a bit logical in saying that Charlotte's

best chances would very likely be with a US Airways that remains independent, and one that hopefully would have the management skill and foresight to grow the airline from within and be competitive on its own.  As it stands now, Charlotte is undoubtedly the primary operation for US Airways, and a very large one at that, and even if a merger with AA is good for US Airways, there is no clear proof that it would be for Charlotte; there's only hopeful optimism at best.  Business executives make all sorts of great sounding overtures when they're in the throes of dealmaking, but very often afterwards the reality is something different.  One very notable area of concern for a merged US/AA is Latin/South America and the huge presence of AA in Miami.  With a merger going through, it's almost a foregone conclusion that the great strides Charlotte has made with US Airways in Latin and South America would eventually be overshadowed by the hub in Miami.  The business case for maintaining separate US hubs for entry into Latin and South America is tenuous at best, and my guess is that Miami would likely be the hub of choice for these flights.  While the cost of doing business within Charlotte may be cheaper than doing so in Miami, and even though Miami would never make a logical domestic hub, the large and profitable operation that AA has in Miami is where the center of gravity is for Latin and South America, so there's really no case for any, let alone all, of that transferring to Charlotte with such relatively small O&D numbers.  European operations may prove somewhat better down the road for Charlotte with Philadelphia presenting US with some headaches recently with their very costly expansion ambitions, but then again, there would be several more US/AA hubs to compete with post-merger, so how that would pan out is anybody's guess.

 

Some contend that the fallout of a rejected US/AA merger is that US then becomes a sitting duck for the other two big airlines.  Unless they wanted to be the king of all hypocrites, though, I can't see the DoJ allowing that considering their own arguments now about this being an issue of anti-competition.  Again, I think if the merger is declined and US plays its cards right going forward, it could still be a successful, competitive airline that continues to pack quite a punch in and from Charlotte.  It will be interesting to see how this unfolds...

You make many great points. Although I was very hopeful that the merger would create an even bigger Charlotte super hub with many more international destinations, CLT, the centerpiece of US Airways, would be just another hub in a large network of hubs. While a merger would have more or less secured the future of both US and AA, maybe this is a chance for both to reevaluate. Maybe, rather than a full fledged merger, the two could enter a Joint Venture and code share agreement as Oneworld partners. It has been said that these multiple airline Joint Ventures are essentially virtual mergers in which both airlines reap most of the same benefits as a full merger. Maybe this is also a chance for both US and AA to buy multiple smaller airlines such as Spirit, Frontier, JetBlue and Alaska, as well as continue to create larger networks organically. Maybe a combination of targeted acquisition and a joint venture could create an environment where the individual networks of AA and US are smaller than Delta's and United's yet much larger than either if a JV is to be thought of as a quasi-merger. Hopefully this is just what Charlotte needs to maintain its prominence in the US system while still gaining significant access to Oneworld's international network carriers rather than the current somewhat marginal access to Star's international network.
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Rather than just being a hiccup in the merger process, it seems the DoJ lawsuit may be more of a problem... 

 

It's been exciting to think of the possibilities for Charlotte that could or might (and may yet still...) come about with a merger with AA, but I have to wax a bit logical in saying that Charlotte's

best chances would very likely be with a US Airways that remains independent, and one that hopefully would have the management skill and foresight to grow the airline from within and be competitive on its own.  As it stands now, Charlotte is undoubtedly the primary operation for US Airways, and a very large one at that, and even if a merger with AA is good for US Airways, there is no clear proof that it would be for Charlotte; there's only hopeful optimism at best.  Business executives make all sorts of great sounding overtures when they're in the throes of dealmaking, but very often afterwards the reality is something different.  One very notable area of concern for a merged US/AA is Latin/South America and the huge presence of AA in Miami.  With a merger going through, it's almost a foregone conclusion that the great strides Charlotte has made with US Airways in Latin and South America would eventually be overshadowed by the hub in Miami.  The business case for maintaining separate US hubs for entry into Latin and South America is tenuous at best, and my guess is that Miami would likely be the hub of choice for these flights.  While the cost of doing business within Charlotte may be cheaper than doing so in Miami, and even though Miami would never make a logical domestic hub, the large and profitable operation that AA has in Miami is where the center of gravity is for Latin and South America, so there's really no case for any, let alone all, of that transferring to Charlotte with such relatively small O&D numbers.  European operations may prove somewhat better down the road for Charlotte with Philadelphia presenting US with some headaches recently with their very costly expansion ambitions, but then again, there would be several more US/AA hubs to compete with post-merger, so how that would pan out is anybody's guess.

 

Some contend that the fallout of a rejected US/AA merger is that US then becomes a sitting duck for the other two big airlines.  Unless they wanted to be the king of all hypocrites, though, I can't see the DoJ allowing that considering their own arguments now about this being an issue of anti-competition.  Again, I think if the merger is declined and US plays its cards right going forward, it could still be a successful, competitive airline that continues to pack quite a punch in and from Charlotte.  It will be interesting to see how this unfolds... 

This is not good news for Charlotte, CLT, or US Airways.  One of the benefits of the merger is that the new AA would have nearly 200 widebody jets capable of flying to Asia, South America, and Europe.  US Airways on its own has mere 29 twin-aisle jets, with 10 of those being 25-year old 767-200s scheduled for retirement over the next three years.  At the earliest, the A-350s wide-bodies that the airline has on order will not be delivered until 2017, and even then, only four deliveries are scheduled.  There are few options left for US.  A merger with jetBlue makes no sense, as it adds nothing to the route network that the company doesn't already have.  And as many analysts have said, the US Airways hub system utilizes "second-tier" cities that don't generate as much revenue as the likes of Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas/Ft Worth, and Los Angeles. 

 

As for growing organically, that's a very expensive proposition for the airline.  Spending cash assets on equipment, gates, and employees is very risky.  And when you're a distant 5th to the others, what is the airline's place in the market?  Regardless of the airline's NYSE ticker symbol, LCC, it is NOT a low cost carrier.  In all honesty, US Airways needs this merger a lot more than American Airlines.   

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I think we'll be better off with an independent US Air.

Think of allll the possibilities with American. Expanding Miami, NYC, Philadelphia, LA, Dallas & Chicago to Africa, the Middle East, European, South America, domestic expansion.... As opposed to Charlotte where Africa, Middle East, and more South American/European flights would be an afterthought.

Now US Air is forced to expand Charlotte. We'll grow much larger and much faster (especially internationally) then a combined US/AMR. The best result also, is a merger with a small airline. The problem is, though, not a single small airline really fits with US.

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I think we'll be better off with an independent US Air.

Think of allll the possibilities with American. Expanding Miami, NYC, Philadelphia, LA, Dallas & Chicago to Africa, the Middle East, European, South America, domestic expansion.... As opposed to Charlotte where Africa, Middle East, and more South American/European flights would be an afterthought.

Now US Air is forced to expand Charlotte. We'll grow much larger and much faster (especially internationally) then a combined US/AMR. The best result also, is a merger with a small airline. The problem is, though, not a single small airline really fits with US.

With an AA/US merger, Charlotte would most definitely lose importance. As Miesian Corners said, US uses 2nd tiers cities for hubs which do not make as much money as 1st tier cities. You can pretty much bet that if the merger can continue, the 2nd tier hubs will eventually lose flights and importance, including Charlotte, as flights move to the 1st tier markets. Charlotte will still be a valuable asset to the new airline since our airport is so cheap, so we still could be a big domestic hub for the east coast, but we would definitely lose out on international flights, and we would probably lose domestic flights to Dallas since that city is their HQ and would be a major focus for them, as well as Dallas being smack in the middle (southern portion) of the country.

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I think we'll be better off with an independent US Air.

Think of allll the possibilities with American. Expanding Miami, NYC, Philadelphia, LA, Dallas & Chicago to Africa, the Middle East, European, South America, domestic expansion.... As opposed to Charlotte where Africa, Middle East, and more South American/European flights would be an afterthought.

Now US Air is forced to expand Charlotte. We'll grow much larger and much faster (especially internationally) then a combined US/AMR. The best result also, is a merger with a small airline. The problem is, though, not a single small airline really fits with US.

Forced to expand exactly how?  I work there.  US Airways doesn't have the money to suddenly grow to compete with the likes of Delta or United.  The company might be OK in the short-term, but forward projections are depressing. 

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With an AA/US merger, Charlotte would most definitely lose importance. As Miesian Corners said, US uses 2nd tiers cities for hubs which do not make as much money as 1st tier cities. You can pretty much bet that if the merger can continue, the 2nd tier hubs will eventually lose flights and importance, including Charlotte, as flights move to the 1st tier markets. Charlotte will still be a valuable asset to the new airline since our airport is so cheap, so we still could be a big domestic hub for the east coast, but we would definitely lose out on international flights, and we would probably lose domestic flights to Dallas since that city is their HQ and would be a major focus for them, as well as Dallas being smack in the middle (southern portion) of the country.

And I can't agree that CLT would lose importance in a merger.  I've said it a million times, the reason CLT works in an AA/US marriage is its superb geography.  While it is second-tier as a hub in a stand-alone US Airways (compared to its rivals), it's a behemoth in a merger with American, as risk is spread out.  Charlotte is American's only chance at a viable Southeastern hub.  Miami doesn't do what CLT does.  And there is no logic in flying a customer from GSP to MIA so that they can connect to Indianapolis.  Not only is not logical, it's not even a possibility, as MIA is at capacity with no room to expand its airfield.  Add the fact it has the second highest per passenger cost in the industry, and you get exactly what MIA is, less than a hub than an O&D airport for Central and South America. 

 

As a side note, this just popped up on my WSJ news feed:

8/15/13 11:49:00 MARKET TALK: US Air, AMR, May Have Gotten Good Judge for Them

11:49 EDT - The judge tapped to preside over the Justice Department's lawsuit to block the AMR/US Airways (LCC) merger is well-known in business circles. Colleen Kollar-Kotelly oversaw last decade's implementation of Microsoft's ( MSFT) antitrust agreement with the US to open up access to 3rd parties after being charged with operating a monopoly regarding PC operating systems. But she also spent 7 years, until 2009, as part of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court , which weighs--and almost always grants--surveillance requests from the federal government. It's returned to the news cycle amid the Snowden leaks. Wolfe Research calls Kollar-Kotelly getting the airline case a "slight positive" for the companies since it thinks "the DoJ's case...is thin" and her past decisions "imply a high degree of pragmatism."

([email protected])

(END) Dow Jones Newswires

08-15-13 1149ET

Copyright © 2013 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.

Edited by Miesian Corners
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Forced to expand exactly how? I work there. US Airways doesn't have the money to suddenly grow to compete with the likes of Delta or United. The company might be OK in the short-term, but forward projections are depressing.

They are forced to expand out of Charlotte "if" they do expand. (which I can't imagine they would never expand).

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