Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[jme3]

I certainly hope that you're right.  Although I don't live in Charlotte, it goes without saying that the entire state of NC and really, most of the eastern US, benefit a great deal from the options presented by Charlotte as a hub.  But with the addition of the more heavily O&D oriented cities that are hubs within the AA network, it's really hard, for me anyway, to imagine that Charlotte would present a more favorable option for them in terms of expanded international service, making Charlotte the powerhouse international hub that city boosters would like to see materialize.  I do think that Charlotte would continue to be a strong southeastern hub for domestic service, but with all those other hubs in the system that generate far more O&D traffic, I just don't see Charlotte competing very well.  At the end of the day, anything at all is possible in the world we live in, and Doug Parker may indeed have a very soft spot in his heart for Charlotte.  But Dallas, New York, Chicago and L.A. are pretty hefty competition when it comes to moving people and generating money.

 

If US winds up on its own after all this is over, the very best chance it will have of surviving and growing to see a distant future will be to provide the kind of service that the big three are well known now for not providing.  US will have to make itself the airline that everyone wants to fly on and then US and Charlotte both can enjoy some further prosperity.   

 

 

 

 

 

And I can't agree that CLT would lose importance in a merger.  I've said it a million times, the reason CLT works in an AA/US marriage is its superb geography.  While it is second-tier as a hub in a stand-alone US Airways (compared to its rivals), it's a behemoth in a merger with American, as risk is spread out.  Charlotte is American's only chance at a viable Southeastern hub.  Miami doesn't do what CLT does.  And there is no logic in flying a customer from GSP to MIA so that they can connect to Indianapolis.  Not only is not logical, it's not even a possibility, as MIA is at capacity with no room to expand its airfield.  Add the fact it has the second highest per passenger cost in the industry, and you get exactly what MIA is, less than a hub than an O&D airport for Central and South America. 

 

As a side note, this just popped up on my WSJ news feed:

8/15/13 11:49:00 MARKET TALK: US Air, AMR, May Have Gotten Good Judge for Them

11:49 EDT - The judge tapped to preside over the Justice Department's lawsuit to block the AMR/US Airways (LCC) merger is well-known in business circles. Colleen Kollar-Kotelly oversaw last decade's implementation of Microsoft's ( MSFT) antitrust agreement with the US to open up access to 3rd parties after being charged with operating a monopoly regarding PC operating systems. But she also spent 7 years, until 2009, as part of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court , which weighs--and almost always grants--surveillance requests from the federal government. It's returned to the news cycle amid the Snowden leaks. Wolfe Research calls Kollar-Kotelly getting the airline case a "slight positive" for the companies since it thinks "the DoJ's case...is thin" and her past decisions "imply a high degree of pragmatism."

([email protected])

(END) Dow Jones Newswires
08-15-13 1149ET
Copyright © 2013 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.

 

[ScottCLT]

If US stays on its own, is there any change that they will not remain in Star Alliance since they have already vowed to exit upon completion of the merger? I sure hope not.

[Miesian Corners]

I certainly hope that you're right.  Although I don't live in Charlotte, it goes without saying that the entire state of NC and really, most of the eastern US, benefit a great deal from the options presented by Charlotte as a hub.  But with the addition of the more heavily O&D oriented cities that are hubs within the AA network, it's really hard, for me anyway, to imagine that Charlotte would present a more favorable option for them in terms of expanded international service, making Charlotte the powerhouse international hub that city boosters would like to see materialize.  I do think that Charlotte would continue to be a strong southeastern hub for domestic service, but with all those other hubs in the system that generate far more O&D traffic, I just don't see Charlotte competing very well.  At the end of the day, anything at all is possible in the world we live in, and Doug Parker may indeed have a very soft spot in his heart for Charlotte.  But Dallas, New York, Chicago and L.A. are pretty hefty competition when it comes to moving people and generating money.

 

If US winds up on its own after all this is over, the very best chance it will have of surviving and growing to see a distant future will be to provide the kind of service that the big three are well known now for not providing.  US will have to make itself the airline that everyone wants to fly on and then US and Charlotte both can enjoy some further prosperity.   

Here's the gist of it, AA's only possibility of competing with DL in the Southeast is with CLT.  As for the other items, JFK doesn't operate as a connecting hub, it's an O&D market. Chicago ORD does, but it serves the upper Midwest (and it is hampered by the huge presence of competition with United's mega hub and to a lesser extent, MDW airport and Southwest).  MIA has terrible geography to work properly as a hub for the Southeast.  Plain and simple, it's a matter of geography. 

[jme3]

Here's the gist of it, AA's only possibility of competing with DL in the Southeast is with CLT.  As for the other items, JFK doesn't operate as a connecting hub, it's an O&D market. Chicago ORD does, but it serves the upper Midwest (and it is hampered by the huge presence of competition with United's mega hub and to a lesser extent, MDW airport and Southwest).  MIA has terrible geography to work properly as a hub for the Southeast.  Plain and simple, it's a matter of geography. 

 

When looked at that way, there's the possibility then that the bulk of a future AA would be concentrated between Dallas and Charlotte, Miami's Latin interests not included...??

[kickazzz2000]

When looked at that way, there's the possibility then that the bulk of a future AA would be concentrated between Dallas and Charlotte, Miami's Latin interests not included...??

The bulk of the domestic connecting would take place at Dallas, Charlotte, and Chicago

[southslider]

If American needs a Southeast hub, could they expand at Charlotte independent of merging with US Airways?

 

Airports can have more than one airline as a hub.  Chicago has American and United.  Denver has United and Frontier.  DCA has US Airways and American, which is truly why the DOJ is so upset.  Washington never makes too much fuss, unless their own perks are at risk.

 

Granted, since Atlanta used to have both Delta and AirTran, maybe American would try to expand in Atlanta.  But since Charlotte has limited competition, including low-cost carriers, such a minimal flights by Southwest and JetBlue, American may be apt to challenge US Airways at CLT, instead of Delta at ATL.

[ssh214]

If American needs a Southeast hub, could they expand at Charlotte independent of merging with US Airways?

 

Airports can have more than one airline as a hub.  Chicago has American and United.  Denver has United and Frontier.  DCA has US Airways and American, which is truly why the DOJ is so upset.  Washington never makes too much fuss, unless their own perks are at risk.

 

Granted, since Atlanta used to have both Delta and AirTran, maybe American would try to expand in Atlanta.  But since Charlotte has limited competition, including low-cost carriers, such a minimal flights by Southwest and JetBlue, American may be apt to challenge US Airways at CLT, instead of Delta at ATL.

I don't think there is any way this could happen. Not enough space at CLT for this to happen. US Airways simply dominates everything. Plus with Memphis now dehubbed it would make much more sense if American desperately wanted that Southeast hub that they lack that they would go to Memphis where there is minimal competition. 

 

Plus it all depends on which alliance the stand alone US would belong to; if they switch to One World American wouldn't need a Southeast hub because they would codeshare with US... Plus I always thought if any airline wanted to make a push once the new Terminal is complete and if US left the Star Alliance it would be United as they really don't have anything South of Washington Dulles... 

[Miesian Corners]

I don't think there is any way this could happen. Not enough space at CLT for this to happen. US Airways simply dominates everything. Plus with Memphis now dehubbed it would make much more sense if American desperately wanted that Southeast hub that they lack that they would go to Memphis where there is minimal competition. 

 

Plus it all depends on which alliance the stand alone US would belong to; if they switch to One World American wouldn't need a Southeast hub because they would codeshare with US... Plus I always thought if any airline wanted to make a push once the new Terminal is complete and if US left the Star Alliance it would be United as they really don't have anything South of Washington Dulles... 

 

I doubt AA would ever choose MEM.  They had a hub at Nashville (BNA) and closed it.  Nashville is a far larger and wealthier city than Memphis.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Miesian Corners

[southslider]

Plus, Memphis is a lot closer geographically to both Chicago and Dallas, American's two largest hubs.

[ssh214]

I doubt AA would ever choose MEM.  They had a hub at Nashville (BNA) and closed it.  Nashville is a far larger and wealthier city than Memphis.

 

 

Plus, Memphis is a lot closer geographically to both Chicago and Dallas, American's two largest hubs.

 

Yea I don't think Memphis would happen either, but it's still a greater chance then American trying to grow in Charlotte with the presence of US... Going back to Raleigh would make the most sense but Raleigh doesn't have the space anymore because of Southwest...

[kickazzz2000]

Yea I don't think Memphis would happen either, but it's still a greater chance then American trying to grow in Charlotte with the presence of US... Going back to Raleigh would make the most sense but Raleigh doesn't have the space anymore because of Southwest...

Southwest only has 4-5 gates at RDU.

 

RDU wouldn't work for AA because terminal C was torn down and redesigned to be an O/D facility as opposed to a hub..things like different orientation of baggage belts (towards the claim as opposed to other side of concourse), increased emphasis on checkin area etc.

If American needs a Southeast hub, could they expand at Charlotte independent of merging with US Airways?

 

Airports can have more than one airline as a hub.  Chicago has American and United.  Denver has United and Frontier.  DCA has US Airways and American, which is truly why the DOJ is so upset.  Washington never makes too much fuss, unless their own perks are at risk.

 

Granted, since Atlanta used to have both Delta and AirTran, maybe American would try to expand in Atlanta.  But since Charlotte has limited competition, including low-cost carriers, such a minimal flights by Southwest and JetBlue, American may be apt to challenge US Airways at CLT, instead of Delta at ATL.

American only serves 7 destinations from DCA

[Miesian Corners]

Raleigh also doesn't work because its two parallel runways are too close together for simultaneous take-offs and landings.  

[ssh214]

Does anyone have any news on legal battle over the airport? Been kind of quiet lately on that front. There is a pretty interesting thread on Airliners.net about US Airways as a standalone carrier; it's really interesting how most of the people commenting on that thread have no idea about what is going on with this legal battle and they are just spewing out some nonsense. http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5844399/

[emansius]

Does anyone have any news on legal battle over the airport? Been kind of quiet lately on that front. There is a pretty interesting thread on Airliners.net about US Airways as a standalone carrier; it's really interesting how most of the people commenting on that thread have no idea about what is going on with this legal battle and they are just spewing out some nonsense. http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5844399/

Loved the bit about Charlotte being a "Podunk town"

[ScottCLT]

Loved the bit about Charlotte being a "Podunk town"

I loved that nearly everyone on the board defended CLT and told the guy that he'd lost his credibility with that statement.

[15895]

^ I loved when someone said "have you ever looked out the window when flying Into Charlotte"

I thougt that was referring to us as Podunk but it wasn't. Always from ATL.

[ssh214]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/08/26/4265299/charlotte-city-council-to-discuss.html

 

Well here is some news about the airport...

 

They are shutting down the diagonal runway until further notice which leaves the airport with 3 runways. It seems like the airport is still operating smoothly though in terms of the different people involved such as new the Aviation Director. Also this should speed up the talks about adding the 4th parallel runway. 

 

Hopefully our "Podunk"   city can find a quick resolution to this.

Edited August 26, 2013 by saamh

[RiverwoodCLT]

I flew to Denver this month, and the airplane was packed going and coming,   all seats were full.

Charlotte to Allentown Pa   flights are always full with I fly there.

[cltbwimob]

A new twist.

http://money.msn.com/business-news/article.aspx?feed=OBR&date=20130828&id=16849508

[HopHead]

^Amazing to me that the focus of the complaint filed by the government is on Reagan National in DC having 69% percent of the slots between the two airlines. Obviously that reeks of federal government interests, but if their beef is really with competition at airports they would need to look no further than CLT having little over 90%. Nothing is imminent, but sounds like some kind of deal may be in the works for the merger to move forward.

Edited August 29, 2013 by wend28

[allthingsplanes]

^ I hear you but there's actually a pretty distinct difference between CLT and Reagan National.  Reagan is slot-controlled, so airlines have to apply for additional slots to be able to fly to new cities or add flights to current cities.  Charlotte is not controlled - any airline could come in if they wanted and start flights.  Charlotte is one of many hub airports that are dominated by one carrier - DFW, Houston, Miami, Detroit, MSP, Newark, Washington Dulles are up there, and other hubs such as Atlanta, Phoenix, Denver, San Francisco aren't that much different.

 

But I don't believe that the DOJ is locked in on Reagan.  I do think that they want the combined airline to give up a bunch of slots there, but I do believe that the DOJ "changed" (that's up for dispute) their criteria and are looking more closely at connecting traffic as well as non-stops.

[LKN704]

Rumor on another forum is that BA may announce another US destination this September. Pray that it is CLT!

[CltFlyer]

Rumor on another forum is that BA may announce another US destination this September. Pray that it is CLT!

I found the same article you are referring to,  While, I would like it to be CLT, I feel it will probably be PDX, DTW, or maybe FLL.   Not throwing CLT out of the mix though.   Sadly it would probably be because US is supposedly joining OW though, and could end up being at the expense of LH.   Personally I hope if the merger doesn't go through that US stays in Star Alliance.

[LKN704]

I found the same article you are referring to,  While, I would like it to be CLT, I feel it will probably be PDX, DTW, or maybe FLL.   Not throwing CLT out of the mix though.   Sadly it would probably be because US is supposedly joining OW though, and could end up being at the expense of LH.   Personally I hope if the merger doesn't go through that US stays in Star Alliance.

I feel like it will either be CLT or DTW. I'm hesitant to believe PDX simply because Lufthansa could not make FRA work from there, even though FRA had a bit of local demand from companies in PDX. I hear DL has trouble with AMS there. FLL is too leisure, and I believe the next US route will be out of LHR, and BA would never waste a LHR slot on FLL. 

 

That leaves DTW and CLT. I believe BA left DTW in 2008 when the economy there started to go sour. I don't know how much the economy in DTW improved since then.

[kickazzz2000]

I feel like it will either be CLT or DTW. I'm hesitant to believe PDX simply because Lufthansa could not make FRA work from there, even though FRA had a bit of local demand from companies in PDX. I hear DL has trouble with AMS there. FLL is too leisure, and I believe the next US route will be out of LHR, and BA would never waste a LHR slot on FLL. 

 

That leaves DTW and CLT. I believe BA left DTW in 2008 when the economy there started to go sour. I don't know how much the economy in DTW improved since then.

dont think anybody saw this coming

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/british-airways-become-first-airline-122900778.html