Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[CLT2014]

Average airfare can be messed up by business travelers, how far passengers fly from different cities, and how many customers are booking non-refundable airfare. I could guess Charlotte has a larger % of its travelers flying on fully refundable business fares than a lot of other cities. Salt Lake City, Denver, Austin, San Diego, Orlando, Fort Lauderdale, etc... are all booking a lot of leisure flights due to people visiting for the beach, skiing, tourism, etc.... We also have a HUGE amount of nonstop destinations for a city of our size. Nonstops in general have higher airfare, but in Charlotte especially it gets really expensive. We are stuck in a catch 22. We have 6 flights per day to Los Angeles. We'd probably only have 2 if American didn't have a hub. The business community loves it and I'm shocked at the fully refundable fares they will pay. My employer regularly books me on $900 economy seats to San Francisco when the non-refundable nonstop is $421. These fares screw us leisure travelers.

Edited January 13, 2016 by CLT2014

[ChessieCat]

1 hour ago, HopHead said:

This may or may not make your blood boil. Charlotte has the 2nd highest average airfare of the 50 busiest airports in the nation at $458. Only Newark was worse at $478. The national average if $385. 

By comparison in just North Carolina, Raleigh-Durham has an average fare of $393, Piedmont Triad has $470. 

Not getting my hopes up because we know Charlotte will bend over backwards to accommodate them, but it would be great if the city took a hard line with American Airlines to get the fares reduced with the new airport lease that's coming up. Even it's only on X routes. Or better yet, open up more gates to other airlines who can compete with them on said routes. 

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2016/01/12/average-airfares-at-clt-among-highest-of-nations.html

The best hope is that an expanded A-North allows for all the major airlines not called AA to offer nonstops to all their hubs.  If you are a lesiure traveler and willing to connect in say FLL for a trip to the Carribean on JetBlue or Spirit/Frontier, that is the best you can hope for and it does provide fare competition to AA at the end of the day. 

20 hours ago, ah59396 said:

 

I don't even read this anymore, but i'm OCD and can't stand it being bolded.  So I just click on it, scroll through it without reading the posts that look like mumbo-jumbo (to me), then go back to the main thread.  haha.

I can't imagine the hell that our Canadian counterparts go through: YYZ, er YVR, or was it YUL?  Isn't YYZ a Rush song? 

Edited January 13, 2016 by ChessieCat

[HopHead]

43 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Average airfare can be messed up by business travelers, how far passengers fly from different cities, and how many customers are booking non-refundable airfare. I could guess Charlotte has a larger % of its travelers flying on fully refundable business fares than a lot of other cities. Salt Lake City, Denver, Austin, San Diego, Orlando, Fort Lauderdale, etc... are all booking a lot of leisure flights due to people visiting for the beach, skiing, tourism, etc.... We also have a HUGE amount of nonstop destinations for a city of our size. Nonstops in general have higher airfare, but in Charlotte especially it gets really expensive. We are stuck in a catch 22. We have 6 flights per day to Los Angeles. We'd probably only have 2 if American didn't have a hub. The business community loves it and I'm shocked at the fully refundable fares they will pay. My employer regularly books me on $900 economy seats to San Francisco when the non-refundable nonstop is $421. These fares screw us leisure travelers.

I totally agree that there are a number of factors that can skew the numbers. Business travelers can be one. Also throw in the number of international destinations from our airport. A nonstop flight from here to London or Frankfurt is going to be more expensive than a trip to say Dallas or DC. But in my experience, even traveling for business, the prices are annoyingly high. And it's gotten worse the last few years. A few months ago I had to fly through Atlanta to get to Orlando because that airfare was almost $400 cheaper. That's in part because there is no direct competition for that route. Heck, I could have driven there in about the same time. 

[CLT2014]

8 minutes ago, HopHead said:

I totally agree that there are a number of factors that can skew the numbers. Business travelers can be one. Also throw in the number of international destinations from our airport. A nonstop flight from here to London or Frankfurt is going to be more expensive than a trip to say Dallas or DC. But in my experience, even traveling for business, the prices are annoyingly high. And it's gotten worse the last few years. A few months ago I had to fly through Atlanta to get to Orlando because that airfare was almost $400 cheaper. That's in part because there is no direct competition for that route. Heck, I could have driven there in about the same time. 

Yeah, it is definitely annoying to see American flying 10 flights per day between Charlotte and Orlando, but because they offer all the flights they charge through the roof. Then you have a Greensboro to Orlando flight through Charlotte for $300 less. American is just packing the flights with connections. Allegiant offers the Concord - Orlando Sanford service.... but you're rolling the dice that you won't fall out of the sky.

Edited January 13, 2016 by CLT2014

[HopHead]

Yea, I'm not flying Allegiant either. I can't care how much less it is. 

[Deleted.]

2 hours ago, HopHead said:

This may or may not make your blood boil. Charlotte has the 2nd highest average airfare of the 50 busiest airports in the nation at $458. Only Newark was worse at $478. The national average if $385. 

By comparison in just North Carolina, Raleigh-Durham has an average fare of $393, Piedmont Triad has $470. 

Not getting my hopes up because we know Charlotte will bend over backwards to accommodate them, but it would be great if the city took a hard line with American Airlines to get the fares reduced with the new airport lease that's coming up. Even it's only on X routes. Or better yet, open up more gates to other airlines who can compete with them on said routes. 

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2016/01/12/average-airfares-at-clt-among-highest-of-nations.html

Do you want the hub to close here? Do you want me to loose my job? 

[HopHead]

26 minutes ago, Piedmont767 said:

Do you want the hub to close here? Do you want me to loose my job? 

Not sure where in my post I said that. All I, and most any reasonable person, want is lower fares. That shouldn't be too much to ask.

[Silicon Dogwoods]

1 hour ago, HopHead said:

Not sure where in my post I said that. All I, and most any reasonable person, want is lower fares. That shouldn't be too much to ask.

High fares are the price for having a major hub and being the 8th-busiest airport in the country. We don't generate enough O&D traffic to drive down fares.

I'll gladly take it. I think most reasonable people would agree. I'm sure Charlotte political and business leaders agree. Every good thing that has happened to Charlotte can be traced to the opening of the new building at CLT in 1982 and winning the Piedmont hub. Now, it's an American Airlines hub, their 2d-biggest. How wonderful is that?!?!?

I fly a handful of times during the year to SFO. I shop earlier to get the best fare, usually 3-4 weeks out is good.

If money is really tight, consider flying via Hotwire on an aggregator ticket.

I know that our national zeitgeist at the moment is that somebody is screwing us and we're helpless to stop it. I know that no one likes a monopoly and no one likes to be told take it or leave it. I get it. In that way, the I-77/Cintra deal is my current pet peeve.

But I look at it this way: we're about $60 more per average fare than RDU.

Is that really a meaningful difference considering the hub airport we have?

I don't think so at all.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Silicon Dogwoods

[Deleted.]

55 minutes ago, HopHead said:

Not sure where in my post I said that. All I, and most any reasonable person, want is lower fares. That shouldn't be too much to ask.

If anyone from the airport of the City of Charlotte told AA to lower fares, the hub would likely be dropped. 

[Silicon Dogwoods]

4 minutes ago, Piedmont767 said:

If anyone from the airport of the City of Charlotte told AA to lower fares, the hub would likely be dropped. 

Not only that...

I'm convinced that part of the CLT Authority drama got started with former City Manager Curt Walton getting on the wrong side of US/AA.

Then suddenly, Curt Walton decided to 'retire.'

Charlotte understands that AA is its client and not the other way 'round.

 

[cltcane]

There is definitely a trade off.  I would definitely rather have a huge hub with ~150 non-stop destinations and higher prices (although I do sometimes connect to save money and to earn additional miles and/or segments to requalify for AA Platinum status), but competition is good for everyone.  Not only does it keep prices in check, it also forces the dominant carrier to justify higher fares by providing a superior product, better service, and/or more convenient flight schedules.

[Silicon Dogwoods]

3 minutes ago, cltcane said:

There is definitely a trade off.  I would definitely rather have a huge hub with ~150 non-stop destinations and higher prices (although I do sometimes connect to save money and to earn additional miles and/or segments to requalify for AA Platinum status), but competition is good for everyone.  Not only does it keep prices in check, it also forces the dominant carrier to justify higher fares by providing a superior product, better service, and/or more convenient flight schedules.

There's nothing better nor more convenient than 5-6 nonstops a day to SFO.

IMHO, of course. 

[Miesian Corners]

I'm not sure what the big deal is here. I've said it repeatedly: airfares have not kept up with inflation. As a point of reference, my mother paid $202 for me to fly from Charlotte to Washington, DC in 1976 (I still have the ticket receipt and jacket). I can buy a ticket for the same city pair for $209 right now at AA.com. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, when adjusted for inflation, that ticket on Eastern Air Lines set my mom back a few cents under $900 in 2015 dollars.

Planes are expensive. Labor is expensive. Infrastructure is expensive. Hubs are REALLY expensive. 

[kermit]

2 minutes ago, Miesian Corners said:

... in 1976 ...

damn, your old.

[Miesian Corners]

Just now, kermit said:

damn, your old.

Careful, you're not far behind me.

[HopHead]

2 hours ago, Silicon Dogwoods said:

High fares are the price for having a major hub and being the 8th-busiest airport in the country. We don't generate enough O&D traffic to drive down fares.

I'll gladly take it. I think most reasonable people would agree. I'm sure Charlotte political and business leaders agree. Every good thing that has happened to Charlotte can be traced to the opening of the new building at CLT in 1982 and winning the Piedmont hub. Now, it's an American Airlines hub, their 2d-biggest. How wonderful is that?!?!?

I fly a handful of times during the year to SFO. I shop earlier to get the best fare, usually 3-4 weeks out is good.

If money is really tight, consider flying via Hotwire on an aggregator ticket.

I know that our national zeitgeist at the moment is that somebody is screwing us and we're helpless to stop it. I know that no one likes a monopoly and no one likes to be told take it or leave it. I get it. In that way, the I-77/Cintra deal is my current pet peeve.

But I look at it this way: we're about $60 more per average fare than RDU.

Is that really a meaningful difference considering the hub airport we have?

I don't think so at all.

Part of my job entails that I travel regularly (though not weekly like I used to). I'm aware of most all that, but thanks. However, this does nothing to deter the dissatisfaction about pricing at CLT. Any good negotiator working on the airport lease would at least try to work with AA on lowering the prices. As with anything in life, you can't be afraid to at least try. 

[Deleted.]

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/qatar-airways-plans-further-us-expansion-618397.html

Maybe CLT will get Qatar.

[urbanite24]

With all of this expansion and the plans to open the longer runway, do you think we will ever see a more diverse group of airlines (maybe more international brands like Lufthansa or KLM) and planes (rather than the generic A319s we see all the time)? or will be inhibited by AA having the hub?

[LKN704]

In the US, Qatar currently flies to ATL, BOS, ORD, DFW, IAH, LAX, MIA, JFK, PHL, and IAD. They formally flew to EWR but dropped it I believe.

He said two destinations. SFO has to be one of them. That leaves SEA, PHX, DEN, DTW, CLT as possible contenders, although folks on other forums do not like to admit that CLT can be ranked a major airport along the lines of other hubs and what not. SEA has EK already and I doubt can support another Middle Eastern carrier. Phoenix I just can't see, although I do believe the Qatari royal family has some ties to PHX. DEN I can't see. DTW maybe with its large Middle Eastern population, but they already have Royal Jordanian to the market.

I believe the two destinations will be SFO and either DTW or CLT.

[Deleted.]

A person on another forum mentioned to me, that there will be some announcements regarding new flights tomorrow, some out of DFW and some summer seasonal flights from elsewhere- maybe CLT will get a slice of the action.

[allthingsplanes]

At this point I have to say that I'm not nearly as optimistic about new routes for Charlotte as I was a couple of years ago.  Then, it seemed like every few weeks we gained a destination or more frequencies.  But it has slowed down so much that I don't hold my breath for new announcements.  Hopefully I'll be surprised at some point by something major.  

I do believe that down the road, if Charlotte continues the same growth trend we have now, that we'll see more international airlines.  But probably never have a major international presence.

[caterpillar2]

16 hours ago, urbanite24 said:

With all of this expansion and the plans to open the longer runway, do you think we will ever see a more diverse group of airlines (maybe more international brands like Lufthansa or KLM) and planes (rather than the generic A319s we see all the time)? or will be inhibited by AA having the hub?

I have flown Lufthansa out of Charlotte. I think they still fly here? We used to have British Air. They now have contracted with U.S. air services. Six months ago, I bought a ticket to London through FInnair. I even had to adhere to weight limits of Finnair in regards to excess baggage, etc. . Funny thing, I never saw Finnair. I believe I flew on American Air Lines.  I would love to see Air Lingus, KLM, and others as well.  

[LKN704]

6 hours ago, Piedmont767 said:

A person on another forum mentioned to me, that there will be some announcements regarding new flights tomorrow, some out of DFW and some summer seasonal flights from elsewhere- maybe CLT will get a slice of the action.

We'll finally get that seasonal flight to Kalamazoo that everyone has wished for.....

Anyway, there seems to be a lot of media regarding Qatar in DTW, so DTW is probably one of the two destinations. SFO is definitely the other. No Qatar in CLT for now.

Edited January 14, 2016 by LKN704

[ChessieCat]

^Last week Airline Reporter published this study: 

2016 GUESSING GAME: WHERE WILL THE ME3 EXPAND IN THE US?

http://www.airlinereporter.com/2016/01/playing-us-will-me3-fly-2016-guessing-game/

You are correct that DTW is the top of the list.  Remarkably SFO is nowhere near the top.  EK, EY, and TK already fly to SFO along with Air India which opened a nonstop SFO-DEL flight last year.  The competition is fierce at SFO.

MSP is surprisingly #2.  CLT is #5 which is not surprising.

1 hour ago, LKN704 said:

We'll finally get that seasonal flight to Kalamazoo that everyone has wished for.....

Anyway, there seems to be a lot of media regarding Qatar in DTW, so DTW is probably one of the two destinations. SFO is definitely the other. No Qatar in CLT for now.

 

Edited January 14, 2016 by ChessieCat

[ChessieCat]

20 hours ago, Piedmont767 said:

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/qatar-airways-plans-further-us-expansion-618397.html

Maybe CLT will get Qatar.

Hold your horses on Qatar in CLT.  They are threatening to split the Oneworld alliance due to perceived "bullying" from American.  Don't forget that Qatar owns 10% of IAG, the parent company of BA, Iberia, and Aer Lingus:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-13/qatar-air-says-it-could-split-oneworld-over-american-air-clash