Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[monsoon]

RDU has Southwest airlines which attracts people from ALL over the area (there isn't another SWA for about 200 miles). Most of those rinky dink airports (excluding Myrtle) have USAir and Delta. If you want to fly another airline, you drive to RDU.

Myrtle Beach is served by USAirways, ASA, Spirit Airlines, AirTran, Southern Skyways, Myrtle Direct Air, Continental, Delta and United Express. They have better airfares and selection than RDU.

[tiblerbrit]

He said excluding Myrtle Beach. Also, RDU is as far from Myrtle as it is from Charlotte.

[monsoon]

He said excluding Myrtle Beach. Also, RDU is as far from Myrtle as it is from Charlotte.

Ahh I mis-read it. However we are talking about Eastern NC, not RDU.

[kickazzz2000]

I think RDU has all the traffic from eastern NC. We have Greenville-Spartanburg and Piedmont Triad just over an hour's drive away, but RDU is a virtual monopoly for the eastern half of the Carolinas.

Living in Greenville, I can wholly attest to that. Virtually everyone in this hospital and town, when traveling, flies out of RDU. Since moving here in mid 2004, I have flown out of RDU x 25, PGV (Greenville) x2, ISO (Kinston) x 2. Rarely does it make economic sense to fly out of the local airports. I have never heard of anyone flying out of Norfolk, Myrtle Beach, or Wilmington (2 lane roads and traffic lights are no fun)

Myrtle Beach is served by USAirways, ASA, Spirit Airlines, AirTran, Southern Skyways, Myrtle Direct Air, Continental, Delta and United Express. They have better airfares and selection than RDU.

RDU is served by Southwest, jetBlue, Airtran, Continental, Northwest, US Airways, Delta, American, United, Air Canada. I have never heard of Southern Skyways and Myrtle Direct Air. What sort of operations do they do? Sounds interesting.

[NcSc74]

I have to agree with the RDU monopoly part. Nobody and I mean nobody I know of uses Fayetteville Regional. Last time we did it was almost 20+ years ago and we flew Piedmont. Most times you have to connect to RDU anyways so why not save some money take an hour drive or limo service to RDU. Also my relatives in Sampson and Duplin county use it also. I have heard of people I work with as far south as Robeson and Columbus counties using RDU. Its pretty much a straight shot from most of east-and southeast NC on I-95/40.

This gives me an idea to reaserch Fayetteville regional to see what is going on. That airport is situated in a spot that could take advantage of the long commutes to RDU and offer a closer alternative.

Edited December 1, 2006 by NcSc74

[uptownliving]

A little Friday Factoid for you. The Third Parallel runway will require moving and grading of 81,000,000 cubic feet of dirt. To put that in perspective that is enough dirt to fill up about 10 BofA Corporate towers. Just the grading for this project will take about 2 years and $60M.

[atlrvr]

Here is an interesting stat that shows the strong growth in O/D traffic at CLT.

Traffic originating or terminating at the airport rose 17.9 percent to 3.7 million passengers during the year ended June 30, according to newly released airport data. That was the fastest growth among the nation's 50 busiest airports. Houston ranked second with an 11.7 percent increase.

[jednc]

Here is an interesting stat that shows the strong growth in O/D traffic at CLT.

I heard this fact the other day as well. Seems to really REBUT several arguements on this topic about hub airports and Charlotte in particular.

[monsoon]

I heard this fact the other day as well. Seems to really REBUT several arguements on this topic about hub airports and Charlotte in particular.

How so?

[uptownliving]

Has anyone else noticed BofA's all out assault on advertising at the Charlotte airport? Their ads are everywhere...in the main atrium and in the councourses. They also have large banner ads in the jetways. Most of the ads say "Bank of America is Proud to call Charlotte Home" and then have pictures of things they are major sponsers of such as the Panthers, Nascar, and Knights.

Edited December 15, 2006 by uptownliving

[monsoon]

A little Friday Factoid for you. The Third Parallel runway will require moving and grading of 81,000,000 cubic feet of dirt. To put that in perspective that is enough dirt to fill up about 10 BofA Corporate towers. Just the grading for this project will take about 2 years and $60M.

The paper said today this new runway is more than a mile away from the terminal so Airlines may petition not to use it as the long taxi times to it costs them money in wasted fuel and flight times. If USAir reduces flights there if this merger with Delta goes through, then its unlikely this runway would ever be used. It would seem this is an ill thought out project that should be re-evaluated in terms of the likely changes in the airline industry.

On a related note, if the Delta/USA merger goes through, the Airport is likely to close several concourses and move all the traffic to the interior of the airport.

[uptownliving]

This is just another example of lazy reporting from the Observer. The airport has said all along that this new runway would be used primarily for landings. The study done for this runway showed that at 2004 traffic levels this runway would save the airlines more than $40M per year in fuel savings even with the long taxi.

I agree with the airport that this runway needs to go ahead and get constructed now. If 9/11 hadn't happened then the 3rd Parallel runway would already be in operation.

[monsoon]

This study was based on the incorrect assumption that Charlotte will remain a major hub. The cost saving are from the reduction of circling planes waiting to land. Since this isn't likely to be the case then I think the Observer is exactly on the mark on what they said.

[uptownliving]

On a related note, if the Delta/USA merger goes through, the Airport is likely to close several concourses and move all the traffic to the interior of the airport.

Which Concourses would the airport close in a post Delta/USAirways merger?

All of Concourses B&C are long term leased to USAirways.

Concourse D is primarily international flights and used as overflow for B,C, and E.

Councourse E is all for regional flights which USAirways has indicated they might increase post merger in Charlotte.

That leaves Concourse A which houses Delta, American, United, Northwest, AirTran, and Continental. I don't know where they would move them to. Also I would expect these airlines to increase their service somewhat if the merger goes through.

I think that if the merger goes through then all the Concourses would remain open. The Concourse that would likely see the most effect would be Concourse D. Post merger USAirways should be able to fit all its domestic flights on B,C, & E. There still might be some spillover from E to D, like there is today, but hopefully the new gates on E will take care of that in a few years.

So the bottom line is that Concourse D would be quieter, but they couldn't shut it down because those are the only gates that can handle international flights.

[monsoon]

Which Concourses would the airport close in a post Delta/USAirways merger?

They could all go into either B or C. It will be like what they did in RDU and Pittsburgh after they lost their hub status. These things can be worked out. They have sent men to the moon, they can no doubt reorganize the airport in the new world of airline consolidation and reduced flights in Charlotte.

[uptownliving]

They could all go into either B or C. It will be like what they did in RDU and Pittsburgh after they lost their hub status. These things can be worked out.

That simply would not work. Even if the worst case scenario happens and US pulls out all of the hub, then Concourse B or C would not be enough to handle just the O&D traffic.

We currently have about the same O&D traffic as RDU. I would expect that to increase if the hub were to go away since that means that fares would lower even more. Using RDU as the baseline, they currently have about 50 gates...so I would expect Charlotte to have at least that many in operation. To get to that 50 gate level you would have to have Concourse A, B, C, and D all in operation.

[uptownliving]

The airport will soon be updating the signage in Concourses A, B, and C to match that of the new signage in Concourse D and E. They will be using more international symbols in the signs and less words.

They are also looking at replacing the flight information monitors with 40 inch vertical LCD displays.

They will also be updating the exterior signage, replacing the large brown signs over the road with bright blue ones that will be easier to read.

In other news the Duty Free Shop will be redone and expanded on Concourse D. Also the Budweiser Brewhouse will be replaced with a Barcardi Rum Bar. And at the end of Concourse D they will replace the crap that is there now with a Carolina Beer Company and Great American Bagel.

[redjeep77]

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/16268006.htm

looks like federal money has been approved for the new runway. This is good news. Sounds like the merger spec didn't change the gov's mind (even if McCrory is a little "worried"). I am willing to bet that if the infrastructure is there, there will be some use for CLT (that is to say if the hub is taken away). Can a city actually court another airlines for a hub? It makes perfect sense for united or continental to take over operations for a hub in charlotte. With the infrastructure in place, it would be a way to prevent a monopoly through atlanta.

Edited December 18, 2006 by redjeep77

[A2]

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/16268006.htm

looks like federal money has been approved for the new runway. This is good news. Sounds like the merger spec didn't change the gov's mind (even if McCrory is a little "worried"). I am willing to bet that if the infrastructure is there, there will be some use for CLT (that is to say if the hub is taken away). Can a city actually court another airlines for a hub? It makes perfect sense for united or continental to take over operations for a hub in charlotte. With the infrastructure in place, it would be a way to prevent a monopoly through atlanta.

^^^ You beat me to the punch redjeep77! This was also on the news tonight. It is good to see the Fed's are going to meet 75% of the funding. Very positive for CLT IMO.

A2

[redjeep77]

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/16273224.htm

more big news. I could see US Air putting up even more $ for delta now. Nontheless, this is good news for charlotte (esp in light of getting federal money).

[monsoon]

^^^ You beat me to the punch redjeep77! This was also on the news tonight. It is good to see the Fed's are going to meet 75% of the funding. Very positive for CLT IMO.

A2

I am appaled they are going to ultimately spend over $200M on a runway that may never be needed. It's like they all have their heads stuck in the sand.

[redjeep77]

I am appaled they are going to ultimately spend over $200M on a runway that may never be needed. It's like they all have their heads stuck in the sand.

but do you think that if the infrastructure is there, someone will utilize it?

[dubone]

I think they believe we'll need it just like we need a $2b transit system. Charlotte will be much bigger during the lifespan of the airport.

Also, if the trend is toward smaller, more frequent flights, then we'll also need the runway for capacity then. Bigger flights and smaller flights are the same when it comes to taking off and landing.

[monsoon]

but do you think that if the infrastructure is there, someone will utilize it?

No, there is simply no way we will be supporting 500+ flights/day here if the hub goes away. There isn't enough O/D traffic here for that.

[dubone]

In the other thread, though, many said that if the hub left, the infrastructure available would attract more lowfare providers and a shift to smaller planes. Both of those changes would utilize more of the infrastructure and increase local O&D traffic, which many argue has been suppressed due to the higher relative prices of flying with the hub present.

Either way, the FAA has to spend this money somewhere, and all we need to put up is $56m and 40m for roads, and that is paid for by user fees by fliers. If we deny ourselves these types of infrastructure handouts from the federal government, the money will simply be spent in other cities.

More infrastructure can actually help us weather the changes brought on by the restructuring of the airline industry. There is also the very real possibility that USAirways will not merge with Delta, leaving this airport a hub for the foreseeable future.