Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[LKN704]

Runway length was really never an issue for Asia flights, especially now so with the Boeing 787. That was always just an easy and nice way to tell CLT officials that CLT ain't getting an Asia flight.

As atlrvr noted above, I realistically only see 4 options for "expanded" European service:

-Additional London flight

-Year round Madrid flight

-Resumption of year round Paris flight (Paris was year round twice before, it was initially supposed to be year round in 2001 then 9/11 killed it, and it was year round for 2011-2014 or so, albeit it operated three or four times weekly)

-Year round Dublin flight

You could make a case for the resumption of Manchester or the addition of Amsterdam. I know for a fact that Schiphol management has been trying to get CLT service (as to why, I don't know) but neither AA/KL/US have attempted the market.

[CLT704]

5 hours ago, LKN704 said:

You could make a case for the resumption of Manchester

One of my flight attendant friends mentioned to me that CLT-MAN didn't make money on the 757 because it can't take containerised cargo (something along those lines) so profitable cargo had to be turned away. I don't know how true that is but a little bit of googling seems to confirm that the 75' can't take containers. 

I could see Manchester being resumed but I don't see Berlin or Dusseldorf, as Air Berlin is pretty much gone and N. America to those cities is pretty limited plus they'd be new stations for AA. 

Realistic: 

-Year-round Madrid 

-Year-round Dublin

-Year-round Paris

But they'd probably be 4/5x weekly if they go year-round at all

-Munich (if Lufthansa pulls out, I can't see 2 carriers working on this route) 

Potential: 

-3rd London 

-Seasonal Manchester 

Unlikely: 

-Amsterdam (but AA did launch DFW-AMS so there must be demand, but CLT doesn't have the O&D so would it cannibalise that demand?) 

-Venice (leisure destinations like Rome and AA did launch ORD-VCE in addition to PHL- again same story as AMS) 

Edited October 1, 2017 by CLT704

[tozmervo]

Would bank-driven activity support a flight to Zurich? 

[LKN704]

^I would say most likely not. You could have made a case for it when US Air and Swiss were codesharing, but now that the feed is gone the route likely wouldn’t work. 

The type of banking industry that’s in Charlotte simply isn’t the type to warrant flights to banking cities of Milan, Zurich, etc. 

[caterpillar2]

I hope that with the future expansions, more spaces will be built for AA.  I left Minneapolis yesterday morning. The pilot was an hour late for the flight. Go figure?  We were supposed to land in Charlotte at 3:23. We made up a little time but landed just after 4:00, As happy as we were to get in earlier than expected, we landed and sat still for 20 minutes with nowhere to get off. Our parking space had obviously been taken and we had to wait. I thought that was pretty odd. The pilot said he was late getting to the airport due to football games and a marathon. Shouldn't the idiot have planned ahead? Anyway, I hope that isn't a situation I have to repeat in the future.  It appears that we need expansion in this area, 

[CLT2014]

55 minutes ago, caterpillar2 said:

I hope that with the future expansions, more spaces will be built for AA.  I left Minneapolis yesterday morning. The pilot was an hour late for the flight. Go figure?  We were supposed to land in Charlotte at 3:23. We made up a little time but landed just after 4:00, As happy as we were to get in earlier than expected, we landed and sat still for 20 minutes with nowhere to get off. Our parking space had obviously been taken and we had to wait. I thought that was pretty odd. The pilot said he was late getting to the airport due to football games and a marathon. Shouldn't the idiot have planned ahead? Anyway, I hope that isn't a situation I have to repeat in the future.  It appears that we need expansion in this area, 

Your flight missed its arrival window during American's  3PM "Arrival bank" at CLT. At 3:50PM, the "Departure bank" begins and between 3:50PM and 4:30PM, the ground crew and AA operations turn their focus to getting 54 American Airlines flights that have a departure during that bank: out of the gate, into the alley way, and onto the taxi way to line up for departure.

Since your flight missed its arrival window, the AA operations team likely evaluated the amount of connections that were going to be missed by your flight and determined it was better to have the ground crew focus on getting the flights departing between 3:50PM and 4:30PM out on time and put your flight in the penalty box since it was late anyhow (and thus would already be filed as a delayed flight). It appears gate B12 was open at 4PM, but the ground crew that was assigned to bring the flight in at 3:23PM had been re-assigned to help push back flights at other gates since your flight was late. 

Each airline is going to have different strategies at their hubs with how they handle flights. Many of the airlines have cut their ground crew to the bare minimum necessary to operate a perfect schedule. When flights are off schedule, they often don't have enough spare ground crew around to help that flight get in and thus you end up sitting until they have a gap in their normal schedule. 

Edited October 2, 2017 by CLT2014

[caterpillar2]

2 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Your flight missed its arrival window during American's  3PM "Arrival bank" at CLT. At 3:50PM, the "Departure bank" begins and between 3:50PM and 4:30PM, the ground crew and AA operations turns their focus to getting 54 American Airlines flights that have a departure during that bank: out of the gate, into the alley way, and onto the taxi way to line up for departure.

Since your flight missed its arrival window, the AA operations team likely evaluated the amount of connections that were going to be missed by your flight and determined it was better to have the ground crew focus on getting the flights departing between 3:50PM and 4:30PM out on time and put your flight in the penalty box since it was late anyhow (and thus would already be filed as a delayed flight). It appears gate B12 was open at 4PM, but the ground crew that was assigned to bring the flight in at 3:23PM had been re-assigned to help push back flights at other gates since your flight was late. 

Each airline is going to have different strategies at their hubs with how they handle flights. Many of the airlines have cut their ground crew to the bare minimum necessary to operate a perfect schedule. When flights are off schedule, they often don't have enough spare ground crew around to help that flight get in and thus you end up sitting until they have a gap in their normal schedule. 

You do know your stuff. I think the most frustrating part was that the pilot announced that he made up the some time to CLT and we were happier. Then we sit for 15 more minutes (like we did in Minneapolis for an hour) without any word, A bit frustrating, but I understand the priorities, etc.  Last month, I flew in from Rome and we had to wait for vehicles and other equipment to get out of our way so we could get off. That was a pretty good wait as well. Seems to be a shortage of enough room to operate. Thanks for your reply. God knows what the pilot did Saturday night to make him so late. I know the ball game traffic was BS as I had just been on the highway and it was normal. 

[CLT2014]

5 minutes ago, caterpillar2 said:

You do know your stuff. I think the most frustrating part was that the pilot announced that he made up the some time to CLT and we were happier. Then we sit for 15 more minutes (like we did in Minneapolis for an hour) without any word, A bit frustrating, but I understand the priorities, etc.  Last month, I flew in from Rome and we had to wait for vehicles and other equipment to get out of our way so we could get off. That was a pretty good wait as well. Seems to be a shortage of enough room to operate. Thanks for your reply. God knows what the pilot did Saturday night to make him so late. I know the ball game traffic was BS as I had just been on the highway and it was normal. 

Yeah, the pilot's response.... typical state of the industry these days. Pilot likely would have been put up in a hotel relatively close to the airport too, so BS flag on that response of a marathon.... if the passengers made it, why didn't he/she? I had a UA Express flight canceled a couple months ago because the pilot had handed in his resignation notice that morning. By the time the airline got to our flight they were like "Opps, the pilot quit and we don't have a back up. You all will have to stay the night."

Edited October 2, 2017 by CLT2014

[CLT704]

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/news/2017/10/02/american-airlines-calls-phl-airport-the-crown.html

^This article seems to confirm that the 767s are going to be moved to Philly, I guess that backs up Ted Reed's claim that we are going to get more Euro flights. I am slightly skeptical of the Forbes article only because Ted is quite Charlotte centric but I really do hope its true. 

[kickazzz2000]

4 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

Yeah, the pilot's response.... typical state of the industry these days. Pilot likely would have been put up in a hotel relatively close to the airport too, so BS flag on that response of a marathon.... if the passengers made it, why didn't he/she? I had a UA Express flight canceled a couple months ago because the pilot had handed in his resignation notice that morning. By the time the airline got to our flight they were like "Opps, the pilot quit and we don't have a back up. You all will have to stay the night."

Coming in on Eagle is always an adventure.  Came in, ON TIME, if not a little early, from Charleston this am.  Landed on 36L, AKA damn near Gastonia, AKA the 485 Service Road, and took 25 minutes to get to E30.   Ended up parked three separate times, and then waited short of the gate because nobody was there.  

[xapostrophe]

4 hours ago, kickazzz2000 said:

Coming in on Eagle is always an adventure.  Came in, ON TIME, if not a little early, from Charleston this am.  Landed on 36L, AKA damn near Gastonia, AKA the 485 Service Road, and took 25 minutes to get to E30.   Ended up parked three separate times, and then waited short of the gate because nobody was there.  

100% normal.   i've landed an hour early and arrived to the gate late.  its been better recently.  a few years ago, we would get holding instruction because the ramp was so backed up that they couldn't land any more aircraft.  charlotte ramp is a giant dumpster fire.  1 way traffic around the end of d concourse really effs it up.  then the continued one way traffic past e17-e14b and the north of of e all the way to e4 is also one way.    theres a alot of waiting for opposite direction aircraft to get out of the way.   if a 330 or 767 pushes from d concourse is screws up charlotte for at least 20 minutes.   

 

without 2 way traffic in those areas is a lost cause.  the scheduled block times for us often include 30 minutes of taxi time so that we are still on time to the gate.  its insane.  cant imagine how much fuel and money could be saved if the ramp didnt suck.  but hey, its not la garbage.

[kermit]

17 minutes ago, xapostrophe said:

 charlotte ramp is a giant dumpster fire.  1 way traffic around the end of d concourse really effs it up. 

are there any prospects for improvement or is this a situation where runway and terminal location make it a permanent problem?  

[kickazzz2000]

We need to close 5/23, Hammerhead B and C and eventually connect them and tear down the original.  E is a lost cause unless there were some way to go over the top  but there's railroad tracks there.  

Basically copy ATL

[uptownliving]

31 minutes ago, kermit said:

are there any prospects for improvement or is this a situation where runway and terminal location make it a permanent problem?  

Yes, but that is 5 years down the road at least. The plan is after the 4th Parallel runway is built they will shut down the Diagonal runway which will open up land around the terminal and allow them to expand the apron around the terminal and make the aircraft lanes 2 ways.

Regarding future international expansion American Executive Robert Isom said they would be to airports with connection opportunities..so that means an additional London flight and Madrid/Dublin year round. The other reality is that the International area would have to be expanded before they could add more than a few more flights. There are plans to do just that but that is 10 years from now.

Lastly I'm so glad that Philly will be getting the 767s and not Charlotte. Having flown both the American 767 and A330 on long haul flights the A330 are FAR more customer friendly. The A330s have seatback video screens and overhead storage that you can actually fit a rollarboard luggage into.

 

[xapostrophe]

11 hours ago, kermit said:

are there any prospects for improvement or is this a situation where runway and terminal location make it a permanent problem?  

it is kind of a permanent problem.   the proximity from the end of d concourse and the ramp area to taxiway c is too narrow to allow for any expansion large enough to accommodate two way traffic there, the same holds true for the area around e17-e14b.  Ad for the north end of e and the back side(west) of e it is plenty wide enough for two way traffic, the problem lies with there being no place for the ground handling equipment to be parked so they use about half of what cold be a taxilane on the ramp to park tugs, lav trucks, baggage trailers etc as well as a few buildings.  we are even often held on the gate before we can push because of inbound and outbound traffic.

 

CLT should have demolished the structures near the AA hangar and build islands like IAD or ATL and continued that design plan until they could effectively close the existing terminal structures.  there will ALWAYS be ground delays on taxi in CLT as long as the existing terminal layout exists.   even on a b c and d there are areas where you cannot two way taxi and you have to wait for someone to move, its just less common.

 

a separate thought, whoever decided e should be one story with no "basement" for the ground handling equipment and staff should be burned alive, it has to be the worse design ever.  the ramper  have to take refuge in the terminal from heat, rain etc and are often there when we arrive to the gate and we have to wait for them to come outside to park us.   second is a giant safety hazard as the rampers just drive around like crazy people outside and hit airplanes fairly regularly (recently being the collision with a 200 that nearly killed the drive of the tug).   i realize it was cheap, but it is awful in practice.

[uptownliving]

53 minutes ago, xapostrophe said:

it is kind of a permanent problem.   the proximity from the end of d concourse and the ramp area to taxiway c is too narrow to allow for any expansion large enough to accommodate two way traffic there, the same holds true for the area around e17-e14b.  Ad for the north end of e and the back side(west) of e it is plenty wide enough for two way traffic, the problem lies with there being no place for the ground handling equipment to be parked so they use about half of what cold be a taxilane on the ramp to park tugs, lav trucks, baggage trailers etc as well as a few buildings.  we are even often held on the gate before we can push because of inbound and outbound traffic.

 

CLT should have demolished the structures near the AA hangar and build islands like IAD or ATL and continued that design plan until they could effectively close the existing terminal structures.  there will ALWAYS be ground delays on taxi in CLT as long as the existing terminal layout exists.   even on a b c and d there are areas where you cannot two way taxi and you have to wait for someone to move, its just less common.

The shorter term plan is to close/remove 3 gates at the end of Concourse D which opens up taxi lanes to Concourse E.

The longer term plan is that Concourse E will be replaced by a Satellite building roughly where runway 5/23 is today.

[xapostrophe]

6 hours ago, uptownliving said:

The shorter term plan is to close/remove 3 gates at the end of Concourse D which opens up taxi lanes to Concourse E.

The longer term plan is that Concourse E will be replaced by a Satellite building roughly where runway 5/23 is today.

any idea when this is supposed to happen?

[uptownliving]

6ish years for the short term plan. A couple things have to happen first before they can close the D gates:

1. Build the new parallel runway.

2. Shut down runway 5/23

3. Expand the apron around the C Councourse

4. Build the Concourse C hammerhead

5. Close 3 Concourse D gates.

20ish years for the long term plan of building the Satellite Concourse.

[xapostrophe]

4 hours ago, uptownliving said:

6ish years for the short term plan. A couple things have to happen first before they can close the D gates:

1. Build the new parallel runway.

2. Shut down runway 5/23

3. Expand the apron around the C Councourse

4. Build the Concourse C hammerhead

5. Close 3 Concourse D gates.

20ish years for the long term plan of building the Satellite Concourse.

Roger, so most of us won't be travelling or working through CLT because we will be retired or dead.

[Neo]

The new control tower as of yesterday morning:

[Matthew.Brendan]

Taller than most buildings Uptown ^.^

[CLT2014]

CLT will be getting another private parking lot operator in addition to Park N' Go. 

The Parking Spot has acquired the vacant woods and the shipping yard at 6210 Wilkinson across from the airports Long Term Lot 1. The Parking Spot has the well known  yellow and black polka dot buses at 21 other metro area airports.  There will be covered and uncovered parking, but it will be all in a surface lot set up. 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article178147571.html

Edited October 11, 2017 by CLT2014

[caterpillar2]

On 10/8/2017 at 4:25 PM, Neo said:

The new control tower as of yesterday morning:

Did somebody lose a gold colored bra? 

[atlrvr]

Aer Lingus is buying 8 A321LR planes in 2019-2020 and supposedly will be starting Charlotte service to Dublin.

That BofA is relocating their EU operations to Dublin from London due to Brexit should further help demand.

[ssh214]

15 minutes ago, atlrvr said:

Aer Lingus is buying 8 A321LR planes in 2019-2020 and supposedly will be starting Charlotte service to Dublin.

That BofA is relocating their EU operations to Dublin from London due to Brexit should further help demand.

I wonder if American will maintain their seasonal route if that happens... or will they increase it to year round service. They will be part of the same One World Alliance by that point right?