Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[CLT2014]

5 hours ago, LKN704 said:

They are. IIRC, a friend of mine also said that AA is ticked at how long the renovations in B are taking as well. However, AA cannot have it both ways. If they wanted a more upscale renovation process, they could have forked over money like they are doing in LAX and they chose not to. 

Did L-AA pay for renovations at DFW, or was it entirely funded by DFW itself?

American has a master-lease at DFW and CLT so they essentially pay for all renovations through their lease fees. They've been playing similar games at DFW, refusing a renovation of Terminal C, which hasn't been renovated since 1974 because they don't want to lose any gate space to construction. The CLT renovations are going to drag on due to AA continuing to operate the concourse during the renovation. The contractors basically have a window from 12AM to 5:30M where they can do work on the concourse. This slows everything dramatically.

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/aviation/sky-talk-blog/article133556129.html

[LKN704]

Just flew into B from DC for the holidays tonight, and I noticed the following:

-The terrazzo flooring installed was either of low quality or its rarely cleaned as there were brown and black large streaks everywhere in the concourse, something I have never really noticed with terrazzo elsewhere.

-They added updated lighted signage at the gate areas and throughout the end of the concourse, which looks much better. It doesn't really mesh well with the low ceiling but c'est la vie.

-The TUS flight that was about to board a couple gates down from mine was PACKED, so I am guessing yields on CLT-TUS must have been horrible. 

All in all, the concourse simply looks marginally better thanks to the lighting but that's about it, and I can understand why AA would be disappointed. The crowding was still there, as was that sour smell that frequently lingers in B and C. I can't envision B and C lasting another 10-12 years in their current form. 

[CLT2014]

The only plus of the renovations on B being mediocre is American might realize any remodel won't work for a hub operations north of 600 daily flights. Thus they might finally support a master lease that funds a new terminal building built separately, so B and C can be torn down.

We could also see Concourse C be executed more like Concourse A is, with a partial shutdown and bumping out the walls to create more hold space. It will require some compromises on flight schedules, but in the long run might pay off for customer experience (not that AA really cares how customers experience flying, but let's assume they do).

Edited December 24, 2018 by CLT2014

[Miesian Corners]

10 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Just flew into B from DC for the holidays tonight, and I noticed the following:

-The terrazzo flooring installed was either of low quality or its rarely cleaned as there were brown and black large streaks everywhere in the concourse, something I have never really noticed with terrazzo elsewhere.

-They added updated lighted signage at the gate areas and throughout the end of the concourse, which looks much better. It doesn't really mesh well with the low ceiling but c'est la vie.

-The TUS flight that was about to board a couple gates down from mine was PACKED, so I am guessing yields on CLT-TUS must have been horrible. 

All in all, the concourse simply looks marginally better thanks to the lighting but that's about it, and I can understand why AA would be disappointed. The crowding was still there, as was that sour smell that frequently lingers in B and C. I can't envision B and C lasting another 10-12 years in their current form. 

The terrazzo won't get its final sanding and finishing until the entire concourse is complete (January). 

[NikolaTesla]

15 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Just flew into B from DC for the holidays tonight, and I noticed the following:

-The terrazzo flooring installed was either of low quality or its rarely cleaned as there were brown and black large streaks everywhere in the concourse, something I have never really noticed with terrazzo elsewhere.

-They added updated lighted signage at the gate areas and throughout the end of the concourse, which looks much better. It doesn't really mesh well with the low ceiling but c'est la vie.

-The TUS flight that was about to board a couple gates down from mine was PACKED, so I am guessing yields on CLT-TUS must have been horrible. 

All in all, the concourse simply looks marginally better thanks to the lighting but that's about it, and I can understand why AA would be disappointed. The crowding was still there, as was that sour smell that frequently lingers in B and C. I can't envision B and C lasting another 10-12 years in their current form.   This summarizes perfectly the sentiment that I have been trying to convey in my last few posts lol.  Whatever the reasons may be, low budget etc..it doesn't matter,. the renovations are subpar. CLT does not look like a world class airport.  Unfortunately they are also not addressing some of the underlaying issues are still there(overcrowding, low ceilings, etc.)   The only good so far has been Terminal A North. 

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by NikolaTesla

[Dale]

On 12/24/2018 at 12:53 PM, NikolaTesla said:

 

Well, $1.5 billion doesn’t get you much these days.

[Hushpuppy321]

Concourse vs Terminals - What exactly is the difference?  Been reading Wikipedia comparing SFO specs with CLT specs and not understanding the difference.

[Hushpuppy321]

Dang/Nevermind - Just found out (see Attached).  So CLT has 1 Terminal and 5 Concourses.  SFO has 4 Terminals and 7 Concourses.  

[tozmervo]

5 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Concourse vs Terminals - What exactly is the difference?  Been reading Wikipedia comparing SFO specs with CLT specs and not understanding the difference.

There's probably a nice technical definition, but I think of concourses as wings within a single contiguous terminal, and a terminal is a distinct building that may be connected to other terminals via air trains, tunnels, etc. 

[Hushpuppy321]

2 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

There's probably a nice technical definition, but I think of concourses as wings within a single contiguous terminal, and a terminal is a distinct building that may be connected to other terminals via air trains, tunnels, etc. 

Thanks - I been following the discussions about CLT and the upgrades and new flights etc. but I'm a novice when it comes to understanding a lot of the terminology.  From what I can tell it seems that CLT Airport is definitely punching above its weight.  SFO is a major player/international Gateway to Asia (and Europe) but latest (2017) data shows only 10Million passenger above CLT.  Although I know many CLT Passengers are just passing through on connecting flights.  Could be the reason that sfo has many more terminal buildings because most of their passengers are starting and ending in San Fransico.  

[CLT704]

^ That and a terminal has its own check in area not just gates. So CLT will eventually have 2 terminals when the rest of A north is built with OAL check in

[Hushpuppy321]

2 hours ago, CLT704 said:

^ That and a terminal has its own check in area not just gates. So CLT will eventually have 2 terminals when the rest of A north is built with OAL check in

Oh - I thought that the original plan (Destination CLT) expansion had eliminated the planned 2nd Terminal?  I think that one was supposed to be for International Flights but they opted for better Domestic Capacity.

Im hoping Charlotte will have more direct international flights and more flights to Asia once the 4th Parallel runway (12,000')  has been constructed and in operation. 

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Oh - I thought that the original plan (Destination CLT) expansion had eliminated the planned 2nd Terminal?  I think that one was supposed to be for International Flights but they opted for better Domestic Capacity.

Im hoping Charlotte will have more direct international flights and more flights to Asia once the 4th Parallel runway (12,000')  has been constructed and in operation. 

The OAL terminal is still on the cards, AFAIK. 

Flights to Asia are possible today using a 787, especially the low-density 787s that JAL uses. The flights don’t exist because the market isn’t there, not because of runway limitations.  

[Hushpuppy321]

7 hours ago, LKN704 said:

The OAL terminal is still on the cards, AFAIK. 

Huh...?

[CLT704]

^The next phases of A North will include a check in area for non-AA domestic airlines (e.g. Delta), therefore it will become separate from the current terminal.

[Hushpuppy321]

This is the plan for Concourse A - Phase II.  Once this is completed I honestly don't see any other room for any new terminal building with future Concourses.  Looks like CLT will be boxed in & built out by 2025/2030.  They did mention something about a 5th parallel runway though if needed.  Looks like part of the intermodal yard would need to shift some.  Planned 4th Parallel runway in yellow.  

[southslider]

^Your last image shows the subsequent additions (in blue) to Concourses B and C. Otherwise, a people mover ala ATL would be needed to connect additional free-standing Concourses replacing the diagonal runway.

Edited December 28, 2018 by southslider

[ssh214]

Scroll down to page 295 of this document and you can see all of the different terminal configuration options...

http://www.cltairport.com/AboutCLT/Documents/Development Master Plan/CLT ACEP 02232016 - FINAL.pdf 

Edited December 28, 2018 by saamh

[Trickbot]

5 hours ago, saamh said:

Scroll down to page 295 of this document and you can see all of the different terminal configuration options...

http://www.cltairport.com/AboutCLT/Documents/Development Master Plan/CLT ACEP 02232016 - FINAL.pdf 

Out of all the options I would like that International satellite terminal on page 316

[CltFlyer]

On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 8:23 AM, saamh said:

Scroll down to page 295 of this document and you can see all of the different terminal configuration options...

http://www.cltairport.com/AboutCLT/Documents/Development Master Plan/CLT ACEP 02232016 - FINAL.pdf 

I was looking through the forecast numbers for passenger traffic.  It seems there forecasted passenger enplanement numbers were off by several million in the wrong way, especially international which were off by several hundred thousand. The forecasts were done right before/right after the AA/US acquisition/merger was announced though so the timing was somewhat bad.   The general consensus is that forecasts are always wrong, but I wonder how this has effected the plans.  Especially regarding FIS/International gate expansion which they were already being very cost conscientious on if you read into it. 

All in all though a very interesting read. 

Also.  Here is a view of the progress on the A renovations.  I'm not sure when this photo was taken though so it's hard to judge how far a long it is.  It appears they may be shuffling gate locations, but it's hard to tell from the photo.

 

Edited December 31, 2018 by CltFlyer

[joenc]

1 hour ago, CltFlyer said:

I was looking through the forecast numbers for passenger traffic.  It seems there forecasted passenger enplanement numbers were off by several million in the wrong way, especially international which were off by several hundred thousand. The forecasts were done right before/right after the AA/US acquisition/merger was announced though so the timing was somewhat bad.   The general consensus is that forecasts are also wrong, but I wonder how this has effected the plans.  Especially regarding FIS/International gate expansion which they were already being very cost conscientious on if you read into it. 

All in all though a very interesting read. 

Also.  Here is a view of the progress on the A renovations.  I'm not sure when this photo was taken though so it's hard to judge how far a long it is.  It appears they may be shuffling gate locations, but it's hard to tell from the photo.

 

Their forecasts for Cargo were even more off.

144,000 tons for 2018 in the forecast, actually was 191,612 tons for 2017.

 

[xapostrophe]

22 hours ago, joenc said:

Their forecasts for Cargo were even more off.

144,000 tons for 2018 in the forecast, actually was 191,612 tons for 2017.

 

How much did they do this year? 

[csweet]

Any update on how Volaris is doing?

[CltFlyer]

52 minutes ago, csweet said:

Any update on how Volaris is doing?

I don't have official numbers, but I regular look at seat maps to get an idea.  Loads up to this point have been solid, but they appear to start dropping off starting next Thursday. Coincidentally,  AA starts their daily seasonal service on January 6th, but it's hard to tell how much impact this is having or if It is mostly connecting traffic using the flight.  A majority of the seats aren't selected until the passenger checks in, so it's hard to tell exactly how good or bad the flight sold until the day of the flight.

Edited January 3, 2019 by CltFlyer

[JacksonH]

I've been in the Charlotte airport four times in the last six weeks.  In one instance I was flying from Myrtle Beach to San Diego with a connecting flight in Charlotte.  My Myrtle Beach flight arrived in the commuter flight section of Terminal E, which I think is the original part of the airport.  My flight to San Diego was out of Terminal B.  Because I had the time that day, I decided to continue past Terminal B and check out the new Terminal A extension.  I must say the walk there was a long one.  I was thinking about elderly people and people with disabilities and how that walk could be difficult for them.  And with the future plans to extend Terminal A even further -- and these are called Terminal A extensions in name only because they are really entirely new terminals -- and to also extend B and C, the long walks are going to get much longer.  The thing I love about the Charlotte airport is that the terminals all connect to a main terminal, which seems to be the excuse for not having a tram connecting the terminals, but these very lengthy terminals would seem to justify some sort of tram system.  Also, after all the expansions are completed, maybe it would be more logical if they rename the terminals as A through I instead of A through E because there will really be four terminal A's and two terminal E's.