Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[CM2424]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

Yes, it is their only Charlotte store. This chain has a limited US presence.  Almost all of their stores are in the Washington DC, Philadelphia, New York City, Boston, and Chicago metro areas. Their only stores outside those areas are at CLT, LAX, and Las Vegas airports. 

This place would absolutely crush it uptown.  I'm shocked at how slow chains like this have been to move into Uptown.  Chopt and Chipotle, which are supposedly on the way, are going to be absolutely slammed 

[JFerreira91]

59 minutes ago, InSouthPark said:

The coffee I got a Pret in Heathrow was the worst coffee  I think I have ever paid for!   I know the English like their tea best but this was gross. 

Yeah their coffee isn't great, but so is Starbuck's and similar high street chains. If you're looking for a good coffee, go to your local coffee shop.

Anyway, they offer open spaces, toilets, free wifi and whatnot that can save anyone on a rush. Hopefully, they open more shops in Charlotte.

[Vitamin_N]

Prominent travel blogger Gary Leff thinks CLT needs another AA lounge. In a nutshell:

The Charlotte airport has only one Priority Pass option, Minute Suites. It’s usually booked solid when I pass through. If you want to use it you’d better make a reservation in advance through the app, and not just a few hours in advance either.

Charlotte has 2 Admirals Clubs to 700 flights, DFW has 5 clubs to 900 flights. Charlotte desperately needs another club — or two.

[cltcane]

8 minutes ago, Vitamin_N said:

Prominent travel blogger Gary Leff thinks CLT needs another AA lounge. In a nutshell:

The Charlotte airport has only one Priority Pass option, Minute Suites. It’s usually booked solid when I pass through. If you want to use it you’d better make a reservation in advance through the app, and not just a few hours in advance either.

Charlotte has 2 Admirals Clubs to 700 flights, DFW has 5 clubs to 900 flights. Charlotte desperately needs another club — or two.

Agreed. CLT is the red-headed stepchild of the AA hubs in terms of facilities.  We desperately need an E Concourse Admirals Club at a minimum and should also get a small Flagship Lounge.  Once the latter is built at PHL, CLT will be the only AA hub with long haul international flights without one (and without showers in an Admirals Club).  Of course the current Admirals Clubs will likely become a lot less busy once the Centurion Lounge opens - for good reason.

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

I recently spoke with a Delta exec about their future skyclub options. He mentioned Charlotte was going to receive more flights once they have more space, they also plan to put a popup skyclub in a couple locations that didn't have a skyclub to determine demand. He mentioned charlotte would be on that list of trial locations if they can get the floorspace in CLT. That had long been a problem, however in CLT. 

I tend to think that once this big terminal project is complete, the airport will have already outgrown the new terminal. 

Edited July 21, 2019 by CarolinaDaydreamin

[xapostrophe]

13 minutes ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

I recently spoke with a Delta exec about their future skyclub options. He mentioned Charlotte was going to receive more flights once they have more space, they also plan to put a popup skyclub in a couple locations that didn't have a skyclub to determine demand. He mentioned charlotte would be on that list of trial locations if they can get the floorspace in CLT. That had long been a problem, however in CLT. 

I tend to think that once this big terminal project is complete, the airport will have already outgrown the new terminal. 

upstairs in the new terminal there appears to be 1000s of sq feet that are unused.  i refuse to believe that second floor was only meant to have a starbucks and a few toilets.

[cltcane]

34 minutes ago, xapostrophe said:

upstairs in the new terminal there appears to be 1000s of sq feet that are unused.  i refuse to believe that second floor was only meant to have a starbucks and a few toilets.

I’ve always wondered about that space too. Would be a total waste if most/some of it wasn’t designed for retail or an airline lounge.  The open area with the rocking chairs and airport model facing the ramp and runway between A and A-North seems wasted to me too.  That could have easily been retail/restaurant and would be a good, very visible spot for a pop-up lounge.  In addition to a SkyClub on the A-North expansion where Delta will move once complete and an additional Admirals Club on E, I think the current A-North would perfect for a Priority Pass lounge like The Club for travelers without status or an AmEx Platinum card.

https://shop.theclubairportlounges.com/

Edited July 21, 2019 by cltcane

[LKN704]

There was supposed to be a US Club in Concourse E when it opened (along with a tower directing all of the RJ traffic around the concourse) both of which were eventually cut from the final project. I've always found it amusing/interesting that there isn't a Club in E. It is one of the busiest (if the not the busiest) Concourse in the USA strictly serving RJ traffic-all of the US3 have a club in their RJ concourses at their hubs-except for CLT. 

I'm sure AA would more be more than happy to fork over the money to build a third club at CLT (there used to be one in the D/E walkway where Pinkberry is now)-there just isn't enough space. 

I doubt AA would ever have a FL lounge here. We simply do not have the frequency of INTL long-haul flying that the other hubs have. You could make the same argument for ORD, however ORD simply has higher-yielding traffic than CLT does and a FL lounge is needed to remain competitive with UA's ORD flying and their Polaris lounge. AA is essentially competing with no one. The same could be said about the money AA has been willing to spend on upgrades at CLT versus say terminal upgrades at LAX and DFW. CLT is simply just low-yielding and AA faces little competition here-hence the terminal upgrades that are essentially lipstick on a pick and do nothing to handle the main issue----overcrowding, especially when you now have several A330 flights in Concourse B.

If AA improved the Admirals Club situation a bit and maybe opened one closer to D/E, a FL lounge wouldn't be necessary, especially if the lounge had showers and enhanced food selection. DL doesn't have a special lounge program for Delta One passengers-they simply chose to improve the SkyClub experience across the board. I know LH J pax get access to the Admirals Club, and I am surprised they haven't pressured AA to improve their lounge experience, considering they are already paying AA a usage fee for the lounge. It would be cool if one day LH operated out of the A north gates for departures, and UA/LH opened a joint United Club, although I wouldn't hold my breath. 

[Miesian Corners]

I emailed Kurt Stache, VP of Customer Loyalty and Sales. Here's the response I got:

 

Thanks for taking the time to write and share your experience related to Charlotte lounges.

 As you are likely aware Charlotte Airport is in the midst of a broad terminal refurbishment project.  As work progressed through the B concourse last year, we took the opportunity to fully refurbish our CLT B Admirals Club.  We re-opened the facility last month with increased seating capacity and overall a greatly improved customer proposition.  So far customer and team member feedback has been very positive. 

 Your points regarding our primary lounge in CLT and its distance from the E gates are both valid.  Charlotte is critical to our network, and therefore so is offering the right customer proposition to our customers be they local or connecting.  Planning work with CLT airport is underway and our main lounge will get a full refresh as the airport authority comes through and refurbishes that concourse area.  Our future Admirals Club will include all the same amenities as those that have been introduced in our other new clubs in hubs, including showers.   Timing on this is still pending negotiations with the airport authority.  In addition we are also looking at options for an additional smaller Admiral Club near our new gates.  So far no available viable space has been identified.

 Finally – we closely track OA competitors and Centurion lounge offerings and it is the team’s view that our growing network of Flagship Lounges combined with the new Admiral Club offerings is well positioned to compete.  Our Flagship Lounge footprint will continue to grow in line with markets in which we have significant international long-haul networks.

[xapostrophe]

14 hours ago, Miesian Corners said:

I emailed Kurt Stache, VP of Customer Loyalty and Sales. Here's the response I got:

 

Thanks for taking the time to write and share your experience related to Charlotte lounges.

 As you are likely aware Charlotte Airport is in the midst of a broad terminal refurbishment project.  As work progressed through the B concourse last year, we took the opportunity to fully refurbish our CLT B Admirals Club.  We re-opened the facility last month with increased seating capacity and overall a greatly improved customer proposition.  So far customer and team member feedback has been very positive. 

 Your points regarding our primary lounge in CLT and its distance from the E gates are both valid.  Charlotte is critical to our network, and therefore so is offering the right customer proposition to our customers be they local or connecting.  Planning work with CLT airport is underway and our main lounge will get a full refresh as the airport authority comes through and refurbishes that concourse area.  Our future Admirals Club will include all the same amenities as those that have been introduced in our other new clubs in hubs, including showers.   Timing on this is still pending negotiations with the airport authority.  In addition we are also looking at options for an additional smaller Admiral Club near our new gates.  So far no available viable space has been identified.

 Finally – we closely track OA competitors and Centurion lounge offerings and it is the team’s view that our growing network of Flagship Lounges combined with the new Admiral Club offerings is well positioned to compete.  Our Flagship Lounge footprint will continue to grow in line with markets in which we have significant international long-haul networks.

Sounds like they have a plan.

If they do in fact end up with the intl departure dates on A concourse I would bet the next or newest lounge would be there.  

[LKN704]

One thing I never realized when I lived in CLT (because I was always looking at CLT as an origin/destination rather than a connecting point) is how much more AA charges as a premium to connect in its other hubs over CLT, which I guess further shows how low-yield CLT is.

I was looking at flights tonight to fly to Austin next August to visit a friend and then to Cancun in November. I could fly UA non-stop but I refuse to take part in their silly Basic Economy shenanigans. On the AA website, a round-trip flight DC-AUS connecting through CLT is $211. Connecting through ORD would make the cost go up to $372, and connecting through DFW it would jump to $422. 

I performed the same experiment on AA to Cancun. The cheapest flight to CUN was $437 through CLT, and flights via MIA or DFW were at least $530. I substituted SFO/SAN/SLC/DEN/SEA/PDX and every time the cheapest option always connected via CLT.

I personally would prefer to connect through DFW or MIA as the facilities are a lot nicer (and both have Centurion Lounges) and AA is clearly charging a premium to connect in both of those cities. 

[jtmonk]

12 hours ago, LKN704 said:

One thing I never realized when I lived in CLT (because I was always looking at CLT as an origin/destination rather than a connecting point) is how much more AA charges as a premium to connect in its other hubs over CLT, which I guess further shows how low-yield CLT is.

I was looking at flights tonight to fly to Austin next August to visit a friend and then to Cancun in November. I could fly UA non-stop but I refuse to take part in their silly Basic Economy shenanigans. On the AA website, a round-trip flight DC-AUS connecting through CLT is $211. Connecting through ORD would make the cost go up to $372, and connecting through DFW it would jump to $422. 

I performed the same experiment on AA to Cancun. The cheapest flight to CUN was $437 through CLT, and flights via MIA or DFW were at least $530. I substituted SFO/SAN/SLC/DEN/SEA/PDX and every time the cheapest option always connected via CLT.

I personally would prefer to connect through DFW or MIA as the facilities are a lot nicer (and both have Centurion Lounges) and AA is clearly charging a premium to connect in both of those cities. 

I think it's all relative to where you are flying out of too.    If you are using the DC area as your starting point then you are going to find that connecting in CLT is going to be cheaper than most other AA hubs.  But if your starting point is Detroit or some other airport not in close proximity to CLT then you will find the opposite is true, it cost $289 to connect at DFW  from DTW but cost $696 to connect at CLT.  Now this is all relative to times and dates too, i'm sure we're looking at different times and dates.   I'll also point out that if you are originating in CLT and flying direct to AUS or CUN, the flights cost  more than connecting, so rest assured CLT isn't as low yielding as some might think.  

[CLT>]

21 hours ago, LKN704 said:

One thing I never realized when I lived in CLT (because I was always looking at CLT as an origin/destination rather than a connecting point) is how much more AA charges as a premium to connect in its other hubs over CLT, which I guess further shows how low-yield CLT is.

 I was looking at flights tonight to fly to Austin next August to visit a friend and then to Cancun in November. I could fly UA non-stop but I refuse to take part in their silly Basic Economy shenanigans. On the AA website, a round-trip flight DC-AUS connecting through CLT is $211. Connecting through ORD would make the cost go up to $372, and connecting through DFW it would jump to $422. 

I performed the same experiment on AA to Cancun. The cheapest flight to CUN was $437 through CLT, and flights via MIA or DFW were at least $530. I substituted SFO/SAN/SLC/DEN/SEA/PDX and every time the cheapest option always connected via CLT.

 I personally would prefer to connect through DFW or MIA as the facilities are a lot nicer (and both have Centurion Lounges) and AA is clearly charging a premium to connect in both of those cities. 

Airfares are complicated, it could be the route, date, load, how you connect, where you bought your ticket,  or when you buy your ticket. It's a small percentage of the fare but keep in mind landing costs per passenger to operate from specific airports. Here are some numbers pulled from some airports you discussed (more detail in the links below)

AUS $8.39
CLT $3.19
DCA $13.44
DFW $9.50
DTW $9.57
EWR $28.05
MIA $19.85

Also keep in mind that airports have revenue sharing agreements, AA (and the other carriers) gets a decent chunk of CLT's revenue shared with them. The more times you park, and the more Bojangles you eat, the bigger the rebates for the airlines. AA loves

CLT is designed to be a connecting airport for AA for the south and the Caribbean for the most part. DFW does this for the Southwest, ORD for the Midwest, and LA for Asia and the West. If you start to bypass other hubs your fare goes up because the airline wants to get you to your destination in the most cost-efficient way possible for them. If you wanna go your way, you tend to pay more. CLT is AA's most profitable hub by many accounts, when they have access to more gates that will likely increase.

https://dwuconsulting.com/airport-finance/articles/cost-per-enplaned-passenger

https://dwuconsulting.com/airport-finance/faa-airport-financials

 

[xapostrophe]

22 minutes ago, CLT> said:

Airfares are complicated, it could be the route, date, load, how you connect, where you bought your ticket,  or when you buy your ticket. It's a small percentage of the fare but keep in mind landing costs per passenger to operate from specific airports. Here are some numbers pulled from some airports you discussed (more detail in the links below)

AUS $8.39
CLT $3.19
DCA $13.44
DFW $9.50
DTW $9.57
EWR $28.05
MIA $19.85

Also keep in mind that airports have revenue sharing agreements, AA (and the other carriers) gets a decent chunk of CLT's revenue shared with them. The more times you park, and the more Bojangles you eat, the bigger the rebates for the airlines. AA loves

CLT is designed to be a connecting airport for AA for the south and the Caribbean for the most part. DFW does this for the Southwest, ORD for the Midwest, and LA for Asia and the West. If you start to bypass other hubs your fare goes up because the airline wants to get you to your destination in the most cost-efficient way possible for them. If you wanna go your way, you tend to pay more. CLT is AA's most profitable hub by many accounts, when they have access to more gates that will likely increase.

https://dwuconsulting.com/airport-finance/articles/cost-per-enplaned-passenger

https://dwuconsulting.com/airport-finance/faa-airport-financials

 

This is super true.

 

Also I was thinking the other day...CLT does about 700 flights a day and DFW does 900.  DFW has double to space there, between runways and what not.   Charlotte, could, probably won't do more flights than DFW after the new runway is in. Which is NUTS.

[TCLT]

This is super true.
 
Also I was thinking the other day...CLT does about 700 flights a day and DFW does 900.  DFW has double to space there, between runways and what not.   Charlotte, could, probably won't do more flights than DFW after the new runway is in. Which is NUTS.

CLT’s (and DFW’s) constraint is gates, not the airfield. The new runway and any taxiway improvements should improve taxi times and make for more efficient take offs and landings, but won’t result in more flights.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kickazzz2000]

On 7/26/2019 at 10:10 PM, TCLT said:

 

CLT’s (and DFW’s) constraint is gates, not the airfield. The new runway and any taxiway improvements should improve taxi times and make for more efficient take offs and landings, but won’t result in more flights.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

There needs to be a better way to get from the far west runway to E con.  

 

Or just get rid of freaking E con.  

[TCLT]

 

On 7/26/2019 at 6:28 AM, jtmonk said:

I'll also point out that if you are originating in CLT and flying direct to AUS or CUN, the flights cost  more than connecting, so rest assured CLT isn't as low yielding as some might think. 

 

On 7/26/2019 at 3:26 PM, CLT> said:

CLT is designed to be a connecting airport for AA for the south and the Caribbean for the most part. DFW does this for the Southwest, ORD for the Midwest, and LA for Asia and the West. If you start to bypass other hubs your fare goes up because the airline wants to get you to your destination in the most cost-efficient way possible for them. If you wanna go your way, you tend to pay more. CLT is AA's most profitable hub by many accounts, when they have access to more gates that will likely increase.

 

To expand on these points, CLT is without a doubt one of the most expensive hub airports in the country to start or end your trip in. It has the highest average origin fare of AA's hubs by a comfortable amount. However, it also has the lowest share of originating passengers by a similarly comfortable margin, and AA is funneling the lower yielding connecting traffic through here. That's part of the reason why we pretty much only see LUS A321s with no screens or power ports and the older B737s that don't have seatback screens. CLT is a low yield connecting hub, but it's cost per passenger is so low that the lower yields don't particularly matter and it is still one of the most profitable hubs in AA's system. AA execs mentioned in the last earnings call that each new flight added at CLT has higher than system average profitability so they are desperate for more gates.

Hub	CPE (FY18)	Origin Average Fare (FY18)	% O/D Pax (FY18)*
CLT	$        3.58	$           425.77	30.5%
JFK	$      25.41	$           390.20	82.5%
DFW	$      12.90	$           383.43	46.1%
PHL	$      16.04	$           379.26	67.3%
DCA	$      11.60	$           357.42	87.7%
LAX	$      16.75	$           352.79	80.2%
PHX	$        6.26	$           338.57	67.0%
ORD	$      17.87	$           338.55	56.3%
LGA	$      19.33	$           329.16	91.3%
MIA	$      19.20	$           319.52	65.1%
	Source	Source	Source

*The above data is for all airlines. AA's O/D pax share will be lower since these are AA hubs.

[CLT>]

20 hours ago, TCLT said:

 

  

 

To expand on these points, CLT is without a doubt one of the most expensive hub airports in the country to start or end your trip in. It has the highest average origin fare of AA's hubs by a comfortable amount. However, it also has the lowest share of originating passengers by a similarly comfortable margin, and AA is funneling the lower yielding connecting traffic through here. That's part of the reason why we pretty much only see LUS A321s with no screens or power ports and the older B737s that don't have seatback screens. CLT is a low yield connecting hub, but it's cost per passenger is so low that the lower yields don't particularly matter and it is still one of the most profitable hubs in AA's system. AA execs mentioned in the last earnings call that each new flight added at CLT has higher than system average profitability so they are desperate for more gates.



Hub	CPE (FY18)	Origin Average Fare (FY18)	% O/D Pax (FY18)*
CLT	$        3.58	$           425.77	30.5%
JFK	$      25.41	$           390.20	82.5%
DFW	$      12.90	$           383.43	46.1%
PHL	$      16.04	$           379.26	67.3%
DCA	$      11.60	$           357.42	87.7%
LAX	$      16.75	$           352.79	80.2%
PHX	$        6.26	$           338.57	67.0%
ORD	$      17.87	$           338.55	56.3%
LGA	$      19.33	$           329.16	91.3%
MIA	$      19.20	$           319.52	65.1%
	Source	Source	Source

*The above data is for all airlines. AA's O/D pax share will be lower since these are AA hubs.

The important thing to keep in mind for CLT (and for most of the cities on the list) is that they see mostly business travelers as O/D pax. Those passengers tend to purchase tickets at the last minute, which also factors into why the average fare is so high, a ticket CLT-LGA might be $150 r/t if purchased 60 days out, but closer to $300 if purchased 24hrs out.

AA isn't the only airline desperate for more gates, DL, B6 and others are chomping at the bit for more gates as well.

[CLT2014]

2 hours ago, CLT> said:

AA isn't the only airline desperate for more gates, DL, B6 and others are chomping at the bit for more gates as well.

B6 has a gate they only use 5 times per day.... if they were chomping at the bit to start more service they have plenty of open time slots at their gate. It sits completely empty in the mornings (prime time for business travel) and the first flight doesn't depart until 9:49AM. Delta has already had 3 flights depart to Atlanta alone before JetBlue has their first departure of the day. 

JetBlue also doesn't have a departures between 11AM and 4PM and the gate sits empty. 

JetBlue only has one gate at RDU and they manage 10 flights per day, so if the truly wanted more service to CLT, they have options at their existing gate. 

Edited July 30, 2019 by CLT2014

[CLTaviation13]

B6 has the following departure schedule from RDU: 6am, 7am, 848am, 1000am, 1147am, 3pm, 524pm, 626pm, 721pm, and 848pm.  In summary, 6 BOS, 2 JFK, 2 FLL. 

All done out of one gate(C10).  I'm not sure where you heard that they were "chomping at the bit" for more gates. Its far from that. 

CLT on the other hand has the following: 949am, 1058am, 405pm, 803pm, and 942pm. 3 BOS and 2 JFK. A22 sits empty from 5am-9am, 11-315, 410-7pm. Poorly utilized. 

Even after JFK ends in October, the flight schedule is a mess. Earliest flight is 9am. It amazes me how bad the schedule is even with 5 flights a day on ONE route. Heck, MSP  might only have 3 flights on B6 but at least they have a 530am departure out of Minny. 

[CLTaviation13]

 B6 BOS schedule after JFK ends. Its brutal. 

 

[TCLT]

21 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

B6 has a gate they only use 5 times per day.... if they were chomping at the bit to start more service they have plenty of open time slots at their gate. It sits completely empty in the mornings (prime time for business travel) and the first flight doesn't depart until 9:49AM. Delta has already had 3 flights depart to Atlanta alone before JetBlue has their first departure of the day. 

Contrast that with AA where CLT has the highest gate utilization in their system at 8-9 flights per gate per day.

[CltFlyer]

There was a rare occurrence at CLT today.  The Wednesday MUC-CLT flight diverted to IAD and after arrival to CLT was not able to be turned around in time for CLT-MUC.  Therefore, there were two LH CLT-MUC flights today.

The first, yesterday’s scheduled flight, pushing back at around 3:50pm  on A359 equipment.  The second being the regularly schedule flight  but with an A346 aircraft substitution.  

 

Also bonus  pictures of a nasty severe thunderstorm warned cell only a few miles north of the airport around 5:30pm.  We had to make an immediate right turn after take off from 36R.  The inbound flight was already delayed by an hour and we were lucky to get out without further delay.

Edited August 2, 2019 by CltFlyer

[Sigma]

 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, CltFlyer said:

 

Love the pictures (and aviation, I'm a geek for it).  Looks like you got out of CLT in the nick of time! My sister's flight to CLT was diverted to Knoxville yesterday.

[a2theb]

11 hours ago, CltFlyer said:

 

 

 

 

Wewww that 350 is beeeeeautiful