Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[LKN704]

https://www.artsandscience.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Concourse-A-Phase-II-RFQ-final-draft-.pdf

See page 10.

Couple of interesting things:

-There appears to be a designated space for an airline lounge in Phase II according to the floor plan. Now the Sky Club rendering comes up in the document a number of times, but even if a Sky Club did not use the space, I'm sure a Priority Pass lounge would be willing to set up shop. 

-IIRC, when the expansion is complete, the new pier will have 10 gates (they are numbered A30-A39 in the document). I assume they are skipping numbers so randomly to provide room for future expansion. In between the connector between Phase I and II, there is an area marked for "future expansion". Any idea what would go here? I think they want to eventually have three piers, but they couldn't possibly fit a new pier in that space due to wing clearance issues. Maybe it will be where the future terminal head house will sit?

[tozmervo]

I have to think future expansion would just be airport stores/services off the hallway. 

[csweet]

I was wondering if anyone was able to put a dollar amount on each area listed in relation to the airports development. Thanks!

[Dale]

In the past couple of months I’ve flown into O’Hare, Midway, Denver, Nashville, Oakland and FTL. 

CLT is nicer, in and out, to all the above and by an order of some magnitude.

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

On 12/6/2019 at 9:20 PM, Dale said:

In the past couple of months I’ve flown into O’Hare, Midway, Denver, Nashville, Oakland and FTL. 

CLT is nicer, in and out, to all the above and by an order of some magnitude.

Not sure I agree that its nicer than Denver or FLL. I'm based out of ATL so I'm a pretty big snob, I think CLT will be great when finished, but it has a ways to go. 

[Dale]

7 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Not sure I agree that its nicer than Denver or FLL. I'm based out of ATL so I'm a pretty big snob, I think CLT will be great when finished, but it has a ways to go. 

Denver is showing its age inside and out. FLL Terminal 3 is frozen in the 90’s, but is slated for modest improvements. 

[JacksonH]

 

On 12/6/2019 at 6:20 PM, Dale said:

In the past couple of months I’ve flown into O’Hare, Midway, Denver, Nashville, Oakland and FTL. 

CLT is nicer, in and out, to all the above and by an order of some magnitude.

 

13 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Not sure I agree that its nicer than Denver or FLL. I'm based out of ATL so I'm a pretty big snob, I think CLT will be great when finished, but it has a ways to go. 

I'm based out of San Diego so I'm an even bigger snob.  Dale is correct, at least according to this report:  https://thepointsguy.com/news/tpg-best-and-worst-airports-of-2019/

Of the 50 busiest airports, CLT is ranked #13, which is not bad at all.  Denver is at #31 and FLL is way down at #48.  So CLT is way better than those two.  The others Dale mentions:  O'Hare (#30); Midway (#50); Nashville (#21); Oakland (#38).  So this report supports everything Dale stated.  ATL, yes, is higher (#4), but #1 is San Diego (!).

Personally, CLT is one of my favorite airports to fly into.  Actually -- and this isn't a biased opinion but my honest feeling -- CLT is my favorite airport (even though my own local airport here in SD is at the top of the ranking from that report).  I love how all the terminals at CLT are linked into a main terminal so that you can walk from one terminal to another and not have to wait on buses or trains to get from one terminal to another.  It's incredibly efficient.  And that main terminal is beautiful.

Edited December 8, 2019 by JacksonH

[LKN704]

As I have said before in this forum, these "best airport" rankings are subjective because everyone wants something different in an airport when they fly. 

I disagree with the majority of these surveys, and I often question how they were ranked. PHX is a dump to me (especially the AA concourse). PDX is starting to look old, and certain parts of SEA seem dumpy to me as well. DEN definitely aged faster and looks older than it actually is. 

DTW is ranked really low on that survey, yet it has one of the nicest terminals in the US. I also really, really like Concourses A/B/Z at IAD (the United concourse is gross, I will say that), yet PHL (which is nasty) is ranked higher than IAD. 

[Miesian Corners]

13 hours ago, LKN704 said:

As I have said before in this forum, these "best airport" rankings are subjective because everyone wants something different in an airport when they fly. 

I disagree with the majority of these surveys, and I often question how they were ranked. PHX is a dump to me (especially the AA concourse). PDX is starting to look old, and certain parts of SEA seem dumpy to me as well. DEN definitely aged faster and looks older than it actually is. 

DTW is ranked really low on that survey, yet it has one of the nicest terminals in the US. I also really, really like Concourses A/B/Z at IAD (the United concourse is gross, I will say that), yet PHL (which is nasty) is ranked higher than IAD. 

Agreed. And all the food options in PHX are OUTSIDE of security. Makes no sense.

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

13 hours ago, LKN704 said:

As I have said before in this forum, these "best airport" rankings are subjective because everyone wants something different in an airport when they fly. 

I disagree with the majority of these surveys, and I often question how they were ranked. PHX is a dump to me (especially the AA concourse). PDX is starting to look old, and certain parts of SEA seem dumpy to me as well. DEN definitely aged faster and looks older than it actually is. 

DTW is ranked really low on that survey, yet it has one of the nicest terminals in the US. I also really, really like Concourses A/B/Z at IAD (the United concourse is gross, I will say that), yet PHL (which is nasty) is ranked higher than IAD. 

The Delta terminal for PHX is amazing. We aren't close to that. B and C are so cramped and dumpy, even with the recent renovations. We have  a LONG way to go.

I don't really trust that list. I fly about 130 flights a year and PHL would be much lower on the list and BNA and SLC would be much lower.

How the HELL is Detroit number 47?

Edited December 9, 2019 by CarolinaDaydreamin

[tozmervo]

Just now, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

The Delta terminal for PHX is amazing. We aren't close to that. B and C are so cramped and dumpy, even with the recent renovations. We have  a LONG way to go.

I don't really trust that list. I fly about 130 flights a year and PHL would be much lower on the list and BNA and SLC would be much lower.

Cramped yes, but dumpy? 

[KJHburg]

Today's fact: A busy airport with as many passengers as

@CLTAirport

requires a lot of TP.

 

 

76,800 rolls a MONTH think of that the next time you are at BJs or Costco. From Twitter and the CLT airport confirmed it was 2-ply. 

10:35 AM · Dec 9, 2019·Twitter Web App

Edited December 9, 2019 by KJHburg

[Tyrone Wiggum]

16 hours ago, LKN704 said:

DTW is ranked really low on that survey, yet it has one of the nicest terminals in the US. I also really, really like Concourses A/B/Z at IAD (the United concourse is gross, I will say that), yet PHL (which is nasty) is ranked higher than IAD. 

The new terminal is nice, the old one is janky.  Also, the number of food options in the new one is abysmal; Last time I went to The D, I remember walking and walking and walking and  having only a handful of choices.

Also, it's very cold in The D.  So cold.  So Cold in The D

[xapostrophe]

3 hours ago, Miesian Corners said:

Agreed. And all the food options in PHX are OUTSIDE of security. Makes no sense.

they are?   i was just there like 2 days ago.  plenty of food inside security in the AA concourses.  

[teeg]

47 minutes ago, xapostrophe said:

they are?   i was just there like 2 days ago.  plenty of food inside security in the AA concourses.  

That was my experience last summer at PHX, too.   

[KJHburg]

Project to expand the main terminal kicked off today and in the gallery of photos it shows the old Wright Brothers flyer will return to this new grand space.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2019/12/10/photos-600m-project-to-overhaul-clts-terminal.html

[KJHburg]

top 10 routes mostly international that have the highest numbers of passengers from CLT going to that we do NOT have nonstop service too.  It would be great to have nonstop service to Tel Aviv from CLT.  Amsterdam should be a given and would love Tokyo too.   OAG an aviation analyst came up with this list. 

1) Honolulu

Estimated one-way bookings: 11,498

2) Tel-Aviv, Israel

Estimated one-way bookings: 7,976

3) Amsterdam

Estimated one-way bookings: 7,756

4) Shanghai

Estimated one-way bookings: 7,017

5) Kahului, Hawaii

Estimated one-way bookings: 6,170

6) Tokyo

Estimated one-way bookings: 5,792

7) Hyderabad, India

Estimated one-way bookings: 5,189

8) Milan

Estimated one-way bookings: 5,067

9) Barcelona

Estimated one-way bookings: 4,900

10) Sao Paulo

Estimated one-way bookings: 4,885

from the subscriber article https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2019/12/11/these-10-long-haul-routes-from-clt-dont-exist-but.html

Edited December 11, 2019 by KJHburg

[CLT704]

18 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

9) Barcelona

Estimated one-way bookings: 4,900

? We have service to Barcelona. Tel Aviv and Amsterdam would be great though! 

[LKN704]

I’m confused as to how the OAG compiled the data. I don’t subscribe to the Business Journal and it’s behind a paywall. 

Is it one way bookings annually? If so, some of these numbers seem low. IIRC the PDEW count for CLT-TYO was around 75-80 each day. 

In any case, the number of bookings presented here would more than likely increase should a nonstop flight exist as it would ultimately stimulate demand. 

[TCLT]

32 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

top 10 routes mostly international that have the highest numbers of passengers from CLT going to that we do NOT have nonstop service too.  It would be great to have nonstop service to Tel Aviv from CLT.  Amsterdam should be a given and would love Tokyo too.   OAG an aviation analyst came up with this list. 

The articae states that the numbers are based on one way bookings from June 2018 to May 2019.

And these numbers are really low as far as local demand goes. The HNL numbers represents about 30 passengers per day and that's the highest demand route. The smallest plane AA has that could do the flight is a B787-8 and it has 234 seats. I think things like Amsterdam and other western European markets may be possibilities once AA gets the A321XLR. For everything else that overflies other hubs and requires widebodies, it just isn't going to happen.

[KJHburg]

1 hour ago, CLT704 said:

? We have service to Barcelona. Tel Aviv and Amsterdam would be great though! 

Barcelona is seasonal right? 

If these are only locals boarding here wouldn't it be prudent to look at where the most passengers who connect throught CLT originate their flights.  Since many would be in the southeast what would be the demand to Tel Aviv?  I think in the southeast only Miami and ATL have flights to Israel nonstop.    With the size of the hub here I can't see why that route would not work as well as some of those others to European markets and I have never understood why no nonstop to Amsterdam. 

[TCLT]

1 minute ago, KJHburg said:

Barcelona is seasonal right? 

If these are only locals boarding here wouldn't it be prudent to look at where the most passengers who connect throught CLT originate their flights.  Since many would be in the southeast what would be the demand to Tel Aviv?  I think in the southeast only Miami and ATL have flights to Israel nonstop.    With the size of the hub here I can't see why that route would not work as well as some of those others to European markets and I have never understood why no nonstop to Amsterdam. 

As you say, a TLV flight might work based on connections but reasons why I think it probably wouldn't are:

• Any major Jewish population center already has nonstop or 1 stop options to TLV. And AA is definitely not the airline of choice for those customers.
• Church groups and other pilgrim type travel is typically price sensitive so you wouldn't be able to get very high fares out of that traffic.
• CLT-TLV is a very long flight and it would require dedicating 2 widebodies to the route. That's a really expensive proposition. 
• ATL works because it's a 1100 flight hub that covers all of the south and southeast for Delta. There is no MIA or DFW competing for connecting international traffic in their network. And CLT will always take a back seat to DFW in AA's network.
• AA is historically weak to Israel. The fact that they can't make a TLV flight work out of one of their northeast hubs makes me doubtful a CLT flight competing with the yet to start DFW flight for midwest/south/southeast one stop traffic could work.

So I'm sure AA is perfectly happy routing CLT customers through LHR or MAD on their partners or on one of the El Al codeshares via Europe.

I agree that more Europe markets should work, but the big road block to more adds is lack of widebody gate space at CLT as has been discussed on here. That's one reason why the A321XLR is going to be so important. And Barcelona is seasonal, although it's seasonal everywhere AA flies it except MIA is year round.

[CLT2014]

^Georgia also has a much larger Jewish population than NC + the power of their hub. ~128,000 people of Jewish descent live in Georgia versus just ~35,000 in all of NC. 

North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, and West Virginia collectively only add up to 97.5k people of Jewish descent. There just aren't super strong ties for CLT's catchment area with Tel Aviv. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jews

[CLT>]

1 hour ago, TCLT said:

I agree that more Europe markets should work, but the big road block to more adds is lack of widebody gate space at CLT as has been discussed on here. That's one reason why the A321XLR is going to be so important. And Barcelona is seasonal, although it's seasonal everywhere AA flies it except MIA is year round.

Plus they need more space for CBP processing. Most international flights tend to arrive within the same window from Europe  and CLT turns into a cluster when that happens.

[LKN704]

IIRC before the merger, US looked at adding a seasonal CLT-TLV flight and/or a second daily PHL-TLV flight.