Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[urbanlover568]

https://www.wfae.org/post/faq-city-why-do-flights-out-charlotte-cost-so-much

[A2.]

59 minutes ago, mpretori said:

https://www.wfae.org/post/faq-city-why-do-flights-out-charlotte-cost-so-much

I fly out of Charlotte nearly every other week, and I concur that this is a total racket with AA. While I can appreciate the whole demand side, I think the city would fare better with some competitors. Flying has become almost a quarter of my business expenses. Those dollars would be better served going back into other areas of my business, and ultimately the other areas of the economy as a whole. So yeah, I have a major beef with  Charlotte. One thing I don’t understand is that while we are a hub, there are countless other hub cities that charge no where near what Charlotte does. Atlanta is the business airport in the world and the hub for Delta,  and yet flights from ATL to cities CLT flies direct are more than half what I pay out of Charlotte. It ain’t right I tell ya’! Ok Rant over. 

On the positive, CLT’s airport has been a huge driver of the regional economy the last few decades and for that I’m grateful, just wish AA would throw us a bone and get reasonable with their prices. 

Just my $.02,

A2

Edited January 24, 2020 by A2.

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

1 hour ago, A2. said:

 Atlanta is the business airport in the world and the hub for Delta,  and yet flights from ATL to cities CLT flies direct are more than half what I pay out of Charlotte. It ain’t right I tell ya’!

I used to be a huge AirTran fan, travelled them every chance, they were much cheaper than Delta. Now Southwest has one of their largest hubs in Atlanta, and it has helped tremendously with prices and I have never flown them but am a Delta Diamond. Its amazing how a little price change from one airline can really change travel plans. 

I think Delta is SO big in Atlanta (biggest hub of the biggest airline in the biggest airport) that the local traffic doesn't have to subsidize the pricing as much. Delta was so efficient this year each employee received a bonus of 16% of their pay check this year. Just an example of a great airline. I hope AA gets this efficient and has some competition to lower Charlotte pricing. 

[LKN704]

7 hours ago, CLTdev18 said:

What is the benefit to a 11,500' or 12,500' runway over a 10,000' runway? Which planes can land on a 11,500' runway, but not a 10,000' runway? I'm guessing it's just the upper end of the "heavies," right? Like the A380, and the 747-400 (and -8).

It isn't landing that's an issue but rather takeoff.

Statistically speaking, operating at MTOW (max takeoff weight),  certain types of 777s (77W/772-ER) require at least 10,000 feet for a safe takeoff.  The 787-9 I think requires somewhere around 9300 feet. That only applies of course if an aircraft is at MTOW. BA used to fly 777-200ERs to CLT without an issue. But I suppose one could likely make the argument that runway length would inhibit CLT from gaining flights to the Middle East and Asia in the near future. A fully loaded 787-9 operating CLT-Shanghai in the middle of July would likely push the 9,300 feet requirement over 10,000 feet.

I know CLT has a lot on their hands with the construction, but I am surprised that there is no sort of air service development program at CLT. I get that they are likely trying to remain in bed with AA and not attract unwanted competition, but other large airports have such a program (ATL/DFW, for example) to attract new international flights. Maybe one exists internally, but I find it interesting that both the airport and the city are not actively pursuing flights to Asia. RDU on the other hand has publicly announced that they want flights to China (Far fetched IMO) and the longer runway is part of that initiative. 

[U_R_]

7 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

I used to be a huge AirTran fan, travelled them every chance, they were much cheaper than Delta. Now Southwest has one of their largest hubs in Atlanta, and it has helped tremendously with prices and I have never flown them but am a Delta Diamond. Its amazing how a little price change from one airline can really change travel plans. 

 

Southwest has actually cut down service from peak AirTran levels. It’s still a large base, but I think southwest is doing around 30% less flying into Atlanta than when AirTran/Southwest we’re flying.

[a2theb]

12 hours ago, A2. said:

I fly out of Charlotte nearly every other week, and I concur that this is a total racket with AA. While I can appreciate the whole demand side, I think the city would fare better with some competitors. Flying has become almost a quarter of my business expenses. Those dollars would be better served going back into other areas of my business, and ultimately the other areas of the economy as a whole. So yeah, I have a major beef with  Charlotte. One thing I don’t understand is that while we are a hub, there are countless other hub cities that charge no where near what Charlotte does. Atlanta is the business airport in the world and the hub for Delta,  and yet flights from ATL to cities CLT flies direct are more than half what I pay out of Charlotte. It ain’t right I tell ya’! Ok Rant over. 

On the positive, CLT’s airport has been a huge driver of the regional economy the last few decades and for that I’m grateful, just wish AA would throw us a bone and get reasonable with their prices. 

Just my $.02,

A2

It's a racket but most origination or destinations at CLT are business travel while the connections are leisure. This is why its cheaper to drive to Greenville/Greensboro to originate only to have a connection in Charlotte.  This on top of no competition from other legacy or low cost carriers really entrenches them with the higher prices.

Charlotte business travelers are essentially a captive customer. No reason to race to the bottom when there aren't other options to get most places direct that aren't a hub city for another legacy (i.e. JFK, Atlanta, Chicago, etc) and a business will pay whatever it takes to get their employee somewhere fast and efficient.

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by a2theb

[kermit]

On 1/24/2020 at 9:31 AM, a2theb said:

It's a racket but most origination or destinations at CLT are business travel while the connections are leisure. This is why its cheaper to drive to Greenville/Greensboro to originate only to have a connection in Charlotte.  This on top of no competition from other legacy or low cost carriers really entrenches them with the higher prices.

Charlotte business travelers are essentially a captive customer. No reason to race to the bottom when there aren't other options to get most places direct that aren't a hub city for another legacy (i.e. JFK, Atlanta, Chicago, etc) and a business will pay whatever it takes to get their employee somewhere fast and efficient.

American frequently says that CLT is its most profitable hub. Part of that profitability is from efficient operations at CLT, part is our disproportionate share of business travelers, and some of those profits come out of our individual pockets.

Despite the suckyness of corporate monopolies, there is no doubt that the hub is more responsible for modern Charlotte’s growth and success than any other single factor (with the possible exception of Hugh McColl’s homerism).

[now lets roll up our sleeves and turn Charlotte into the main passenger rail hub of the Southeast before Atlanta takes that opportunity away from us. To do the job right we would need a tunnel through the Blue Ridge, without that, Atlanta will always have an advantage]

EDIT: Atlanta certainly had all the rail infrastructure  back before the 1950s, but they did a remarkable job of destroying most of it. The remaining routes are heavily used by CSX and NS, and neither is excited to share and the Georgia General Assembly is still intransigent about funding rail. We now have a huge advantage over Atlanta with the NCRR, a soon to come high speed(ish) route to the NE Corridor and two routes up into the Blue Ridge (Saluda and Old Fort) that are either entirely or mostly underused. With some $$$ for tunneling and some brave engineering either could become speedy routes to the upland South and Midwest.

Edited January 27, 2020 by kermit

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

4 minutes ago, kermit said:

[now lets roll up our sleeves and turn Charlotte into the main passenger rail hub of the Southeast before Atlanta takes that opportunity away from us. To do the job right we would need a tunnel through the Blue Ridge]

That will be fighting against 150+ years of previous railroad construction. Atlanta's railroad infrastructure is sprawling and hub and spoke similar to Chicago. The only way they screw it up is if they don't build a new train station in the heart of "the gulch" (where their demolished previously beautiful train station used to be).

If you think the destruction of Polk or Hotel Charlotte were bad... look what Atlanta destroyed:

 

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

4 hours ago, Ric0_0 said:

Southwest has actually cut down service from peak AirTran levels. It’s still a large base, but I think southwest is doing around 30% less flying into Atlanta than when AirTran/Southwest we’re flying.

You're right it is about 65 flights fewer per day, but its much more local flights. Southwest wasn't in Atlanta and Charlotte until 2012. Jet Blue could really use a moderate sized hub smack dab between Boston and FLL

[navigator319]

I been trying to get down to Belize. No matter the dates from feb-may.

From CLT connection MIA: $927 round trip
From Greenville, SC connection MIA: $490 round trip
MIA direct to Belize round trip: $287

They got you by the balls. Even trying to break it up in to separate itineraries does not work out.

What I think will end up doing is use miles for clt>mia on one ticket round trip and then book the $287 direct Miami flights.

It’s just so insane. I don’t think like others do that this is the airport or city fault, that is misplaced anger. Any airline can come here. There is space. It’s just they don’t because of economics. I think their might be a slight crack in this wall though with the success of Spirit and lesser extent Frontier. Next 2/3 years will tell for sure.

[tozmervo]

46 minutes ago, navigator319 said:

I been trying to get down to Belize. No matter the dates from feb-may.

From CLT connection MIA: $927 round trip
From Greenville, SC connection MIA: $490 round trip
MIA direct to Belize round trip: $287

They got you by the balls. Even trying to break it up in to separate itineraries does not work out.

What I think will end up doing is use miles for clt>mia on one ticket round trip and then book the $287 direct Miami flights.

It’s just so insane. I don’t think like others do that this is the airport or city fault, that is misplaced anger. Any airline can come here. There is space. It’s just they don’t because of economics. I think their might be a slight crack in this wall though with the success of Spirit and lesser extent Frontier. Next 2/3 years will tell for sure.

On our last two or three trips to Europe, we have booked roundtrip to NYC, then had separate bookings from NYC to Europe. It saved several hundreds of dollars versus CLT to Europe (direct or with stops)

[CLTdev18]

1 hour ago, navigator319 said:

I been trying to get down to Belize. No matter the dates from feb-may.

From CLT connection MIA: $927 round trip
From Greenville, SC connection MIA: $490 round trip
MIA direct to Belize round trip: $287

They got you by the balls. Even trying to break it up in to separate itineraries does not work out.

What I think will end up doing is use miles for clt>mia on one ticket round trip and then book the $287 direct Miami flights.

It’s just so insane. I don’t think like others do that this is the airport or city fault, that is misplaced anger. Any airline can come here. There is space. It’s just they don’t because of economics. I think their might be a slight crack in this wall though with the success of Spirit and lesser extent Frontier. Next 2/3 years will tell for sure.

If you have miles with AA, you can find round trip tickets to Belize for 25K miles per person. You can find credit cards that will get you 3 tickets (75K points) just for signing up (and spending the required amount) if you don't already have the miles. 

[navigator319]

If you have miles with AA, you can find round trip tickets to Belize for 25K miles per person. You can find credit cards that will get you 3 tickets (75K points) just for signing up (and spending the required amount) if you don't already have the miles. 

That’s 25k one way so at best it’s 50k round trip and I don’t consider those offered real as they are the ones with one way 21 hour total trip time aka 11 hour connection in MIA or DFW. The cheapest real mile options begin at 63k round trip. You can get 12.5/15k direct one way mile tickets clt>mia.

Either way, personally I don’t even like to use miles for free tickets. Much rather and generally do save them for use on upgrades to business class pod on international flights. To each their own on point/miles strategy.

The point I was trying to make more was this perfect example of current conversation. Just look at CLT versus Greenville in what I’m trying to do. Crazy.

[a2theb]

2 hours ago, tozmervo said:

On our last two or three trips to Europe, we have booked roundtrip to NYC, then had separate bookings from NYC to Europe. It saved several hundreds of dollars versus CLT to Europe (direct or with stops)

Doing Europe in March and did the exact same thing. Cheapest Delta flight to JFK then American round trip under from there into Heathrow

[Hushpuppy321]

On 1/24/2020 at 1:05 AM, LKN704 said:

It isn't landing that's an issue but rather takeoff.

Statistically speaking, operating at MTOW (max takeoff weight),  certain types of 777s (77W/772-ER) require at least 10,000 feet for a safe takeoff.  The 787-9 I think requires somewhere around 9300 feet. That only applies of course if an aircraft is at MTOW. BA used to fly 777-200ERs to CLT without an issue. But I suppose one could likely make the argument that runway length would inhibit CLT from gaining flights to the Middle East and Asia in the near future. A fully loaded 787-9 operating CLT-Shanghai in the middle of July would likely push the 9,300 feet requirement over 10,000 feet.

I know CLT has a lot on their hands with the construction, but I am surprised that there is no sort of air service development program at CLT. I get that they are likely trying to remain in bed with AA and not attract unwanted competition, but other large airports have such a program (ATL/DFW, for example) to attract new international flights. Maybe one exists internally, but I find it interesting that both the airport and the city are not actively pursuing flights to Asia. RDU on the other hand has publicly announced that they want flights to China (Far fetched IMO) and the longer runway is part of that initiative. 

So it’s a done deal that CLT is pursuing a 10,000’ Runway instead of 12,000?  Just curious why they’d go shorter?  Even RDU has a 10,000’ Runway.  Seems short sighted that CLT wouldn’t go longer encase Direct Asia/Direct Middle East flights happen in the distant future.

[Vitamin_N]

On 1/24/2020 at 3:53 PM, navigator319 said:

That’s 25k one way so at best it’s 50k round trip and I don’t consider those offered real as they are the ones with one way 21 hour total trip time aka 11 hour connection in MIA or DFW. The cheapest real mile options begin at 63k round trip. You can get 12.5/15k direct one way mile tickets clt>mia.

Either way, personally I don’t even like to use miles for free tickets. Much rather and generally do save them for use on upgrades to business class pod on international flights. To each their own on point/miles strategy.

The point I was trying to make more was this perfect example of current conversation. Just look at CLT versus Greenville in what I’m trying to do. Crazy.

 

 

I've shuttled folks back and forth between Managua and Charlotte a lot over the years and British Airways miles have been pretty good (has been 30K roundtrip, I think it's 36K now) if you're flexible on dates and not trying to fly during a peak demand time. AA has recently revamped its award system so you can actually go to Central America from CLT for as little as 20K roundtrip, with the caveat that there's usually (though not always) going to be a nasty layover for the cheapest mileage flights. One downside to the new pricing system is that AA seems to be releasing fewer seats to partners, so it's harder to book on BA.

[CLT2014]

11 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

So it’s a done deal that CLT is pursuing a 10,000’ Runway instead of 12,000?  Just curious why they’d go shorter?  Even RDU has a 10,000’ Runway.  Seems short sighted that CLT wouldn’t go longer encase Direct Asia/Direct Middle East flights happen in the distant future.

The FAA won't award Airport Improvement Program (AIP) funds or approve an Environmental Review for a 12,000 foot runway: https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=93146&omniRss=news_updatesAoc&cid=101_N_U

"In October 2018, the FAA completed a Runway Length Analysis as part of the EIS process. The analysis determined that a shorter runway length of 10,000 feet is adequate to accommodate aircraft that will operate at the airport in the future. The original proposed runway length was 12,000 feet."

Edited January 27, 2020 by CLT2014

[CTiger]

So if the new runway can only be 10,000 feet instead of the proposed 12,000 feet, would they still build it?  Does it make sense to spend that much money on a 10,000 foot runway when we already have one?

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

46 minutes ago, CTiger said:

So if the new runway can only be 10,000 feet instead of the proposed 12,000 feet, would they still build it?  Does it make sense to spend that much money on a 10,000 foot runway when we already have one?

Yes. In order to become more efficient with flight opperations and expand the concourses into the current runway area, the cross runway 5/23 will be removed. A new 10k runway would match the current longest runway, while moving traffic away from the tarmac right around the terminal.

[Hushpuppy321]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

The FAA won't award Airport Improvement Program (AIP) funds or approve an Environmental Review for a 12,000 foot runway: https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=93146&omniRss=news_updatesAoc&cid=101_N_U

"In October 2018, the FAA completed a Runway Length Analysis as part of the EIS process. The analysis determined that a shorter runway length of 10,000 feet is adequate to accommodate aircraft that will operate at the airport in the future. The original proposed runway length was 12,000 feet."

Damn - So really the FAA is “Knee Capping” CLT!  Or is it that because AA/CLT hasn’t made clear a desire to have future direct flights to Asia that the FAA is saying it won’t approve 12,000’ Runway.

[LKN704]

I wonder how their analysis was completed, and if AA or CLT would be able to twist their arm.

At 10,000 feet, the longest runway at CLT is still shorter than the longest runways at every other major airline hub in the US. Fascinating to me that airports like CVG were able to get 11,5000 foot runways completed at the height of their hub days but CLT cannot. 

[xapostrophe]

4 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

I wonder how their analysis was completed, and if AA or CLT would be able to twist their arm.

At 10,000 feet, the longest runway at CLT is still shorter than the longest runways at every other major airline hub in the US. Fascinating to me that airports like CVG were able to get 11,5000 foot runways completed at the height of their hub days but CLT cannot. 

CVG has a massive cargo operation.  747s require some serious runways.  It's not all about the passenger airlines.

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Damn - So really the FAA is “Knee Capping” CLT!  Or is it that because AA/CLT hasn’t made clear a desire to have future direct flights to Asia that the FAA is saying it won’t approve 12,000’ Runway.

CLT initiated the request for the 12,000 foot runway and had all the data to back it up. However, American Airlines did not participate in requesting a longer runway and was supportive of 10,000 feet for their long term plans for CLT as an east coast connecting hub and seasonal gateway to Europe. The runway could be extended, with a separate environmental review and funding process, if sufficient demand could be shown for ultra-long haul service from CLT that is not driven by American Airlines. 

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

7 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

CLT initiated the request for the 12,000 foot runway and had all the data to back it up. However, American Airlines did not participate in requesting a longer runway and was supportive of 10,000 feet for their long term plans for CLT as an east coast connecting hub and seasonal gateway to Europe. The runway could be extended, with a separate environmental review and funding process, if sufficient demand could be shown for ultra-long haul service from CLT that is not driven by American Airlines. 

Sounds like AA is more concerned about someone else coming in with long haul flights (a la Qatar, Emirates) than they are likely to launch them.

[CLT2014]

29 minutes ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Sounds like AA is more concerned about someone else coming in with long haul flights (a la Qatar, Emirates) than they are likely to launch them.

Emirates only serves 11 Combined Statistical Areas in the USA that all that are among the Top 10 largest in the country, with the exception of Orlando and Seattle. I'm not sure if the next destination airlines like Emirates would be looking at are all the way down at Charlotte's rank of #21 in population.

Qatar serves 10 CSA's in the USA, all ranking in the top 11 in population. Instead of flying to San Francisco, they fly to Atlanta (#11 in population). 

Most likely the FAA has access to data on how many people based in Charlotte complete ultra-long haul journeys and determined we are too small for most of those airlines. We have a big airport for a city as small as Charlotte so it becomes easy to compare to the top metros, but attracting service like that that isn't stimulated by the power of the hub is still really hard in a metro our size. Our CSA is closer in population still to Sacramento, San Antonio,  and Pittsburgh than it is to Seattle and Atlanta. If American was raising its hand saying they were going to use that hub to drive ultra-long haul, then maybe the FAA would have considered the long runway. Instead, we don't even have year-round service to Madrid, let alone service to Tokyo. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by CLT2014