Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[Miesian Corners]

Stupid question, but couldn't CLT simply fund the cost of the additional 2,000 feet itself?

[csweet]

22 minutes ago, Miesian Corners said:

Stupid question, but couldn't CLT simply fund the cost of the additional 2,000 feet itself?

Not a stupid question, but the airport is funding ALOT of projects, with dozens still in the pipeline. I believe that they would fund other projects where they see an immediate ROI vs. a possible return from an unknown route(s) 

[turbocraig]

29 minutes ago, Miesian Corners said:

Stupid question, but couldn't CLT simply fund the cost of the additional 2,000 feet itself?

That is an excellent question. 

[dubone]

I would think that as long as they don't build something that blocks the extension in the long run, that it can eventually be extended based on need.   I understand the feeling that perhaps if it were just gone ahead and built then the option for the long hauls might present themselves, but also follow the reasoning with no plans in the works to need that extension, to focus the finances on what is needed.  

With environmental and sound permitting, it would be nice if it could be done all together for sure if it were ever happening.  

 

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, Miesian Corners said:

Stupid question, but couldn't CLT simply fund the cost of the additional 2,000 feet itself?

The FAA has to be involved in environmental reviews for new runways and refused to do an Environmental Impact Statement for a 12,000 foot runway due to demand, and instead only supported an Environmental Assessment for a 10,000 foot runway. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by CLT2014

[Miesian Corners]

57 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

The FAA has to be involved in environmental reviews for new runways and refused to do an Environmental Impact Statement for a 12,000 foot runway due to demand, and instead only supported an Environmental Assessment for a 10,000 foot runway. 

So CLT couldn't fund its own environmental assessment? Not trying to be obtuse, just looking for ways around this. It seems incredibly short-sighted for a booming city with a giant airport to accept anything less than a 12,000 when the land is available.

[CLT2014]

28 minutes ago, Miesian Corners said:

So CLT couldn't fund its own environmental assessment? Not trying to be obtuse, just looking for ways around this. It seems incredibly short-sighted for a booming city with a giant airport to accept anything less than a 12,000 when the land is available.

In short, no: https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_development/omp/faq/eis_information/#q4

"4. Q: Are there independent environment analysis agencies available for hire to review the EIS instead of the FAA and EPA?
FAA Response: The Federal Aviation Administration is the agency authorized and required by Federal law to ensure compliance with the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) with respect to major airport projects. The FAA conducted the EIS in full compliance with NEPA and in coordination with all relevant Federal, state, and local agencies."

[stw52]

From today's Charlotte Ledger

·         New all-suite hotel chain eyeing airport area: Developers are looking at building an all-suite hotel near the airport — a new brand affiliated with InterContinental Hotel Group, according to city records. The hotel brand is called Atwell Suites, and it is described as “a new upper-midscale, all-suites hotel brand that brings inspiration to every journey.” City records show developers are eyeing a 2.5-acre parcel off Queen City Drive near Sloan Drive. The trade publication Hotel Business reported last week that IHG “has revealed anticipated first markets for new-build Atwell Suites properties in Charlotte, NC; Phoenix; Denver; and the San Francisco Bay Area.”

[videtur quam contuor]

Charlotte NC

[Rufus]

With American partnering with GOL Airlines in Brazil, I wonder if CLT is on the list for a resumption of SA flights. MIA and DFW would definitely take the top two spots, but then there's JFK, ORD, PHX, and LAX that would maybe...maybe...come before CLT. But with our vast Caribbean network, I do wonder if at least one SA flight is on our radar. 

[CLT2014]

15 minutes ago, Rufus said:

With American partnering with GOL Airlines in Brazil, I wonder if CLT is on the list for a resumption of SA flights. MIA and DFW would definitely take the top two spots, but then there's JFK, ORD, PHX, and LAX that would maybe...maybe...come before CLT. But with our vast Caribbean network, I do wonder if at least one SA flight is on our radar. 

American used to be in partnership with LATAM, which is significantly bigger than Gol in Latin America, and did not fly to South America from CLT. I doubt Gol will really improve that value proposition over the LATAM partnership that got canceled. AA picking Gol is more out of desperation since LATAM ditched OneWorld for Delta AirLines. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by CLT2014

[TCLT]

1 hour ago, Rufus said:

With American partnering with GOL Airlines in Brazil, I wonder if CLT is on the list for a resumption of SA flights. MIA and DFW would definitely take the top two spots, but then there's JFK, ORD, PHX, and LAX that would maybe...maybe...come before CLT. But with our vast Caribbean network, I do wonder if at least one SA flight is on our radar. 

There's negligible local demand between CLT  and South America and even less from cities that are only connected to CLT and no other hub. If it didn't make sense for AA to run a CLT-GRU or CLT-SCL flight when they had LATAM hubs on the other end offering connections to all of South America, it makes even less sense now. What we'll see is AA strengthening the domestic network from MIA to blunt any of Delta's efforts to expand there, adding capacity/frequency to the major cities from MIA and maybe DFW/JFK, and adding some additional secondary cities from MIA. We have already seen the first two from AA over the last several months. We may see secondary destinations from MIA added seasonally, especially Brazilian cities they previously served, as additional 787-8s are delivered this year.

E: I'll also say this: every domestic frequency or destination AA adds to MIA makes a South America flight from CLT that much less likely since it removes a unique connection that could've made CLT make sense.

Edited February 5, 2020 by TCLT

[InSouthPark]

In non-code share news, the Broken Spoke is coming to concourse A in a few weeks!   Can't tell if this in the newer A or not.  Glad to have some more local drink options...although I cringe at the price of cocktails in the airport. 

[Rufus]

45 minutes ago, TCLT said:

If it didn't make sense for AA to run a CLT-GRU or CLT-SCL flight when they had LATAM hubs on the other end offering connections to all of South America, it makes even less sense now.

Just to clarify...I believe it was USAirways that had the original flights to Sao Paulo and Rio, and AA only kept the GRU flight for a short while. 

I could be wrong. 

 

Also, totally agree that Miami sees its hub strengthened by this move. Even if it is one of the more expensive airports for AA to operate, it's essential in terms of its strategic location and tourism appeal.

[TCLT]

12 minutes ago, Rufus said:

Just to clarify...I believe it was USAirways that had the original flights to Sao Paulo and Rio, and AA only kept the GRU flight for a short while. 

I could be wrong. 

 

Also, totally agree that Miami sees its hub strengthened by this move. Even if it is one of the more expensive airports for AA to operate, it's essential in terms of its strategic location and tourism appeal.

Correct, US Airways started those flights prior to the merger as CLT was their only southeast hub and only logical hub to start deep South America flights. CLT-GIG was around for a while, starting in 2009 I believe. CLT-GRU began summer 2013 just prior to the merger closing in December 2013. Both of those flights were gone by the end of 2014. There's very little reason to keep those flights at CLT when you have MIA as a hub.

[Richhamleigh, DC]

1 minute ago, TCLT said:

Correct, US Airways started those flights prior to the merger as CLT was their only southeast hub and only logical hub to start deep South America flights. CLT-GIG was around for a while, starting in 2009 I believe. CLT-GRU began summer 2013 just prior to the merger closing in December 2013. Both of those flights were gone by the end of 2014. There's very little reason to keep those flights at CLT when you have MIA as a hub.

Incredibly stupid question -- if you are a hub the idea is that you fly passengers from multiple points to a single point, gather them there, and then connect them to flights to a final destination.  On a daily flight out of say, CLT, to say, Berlin, does it really matter if there are any passengers residing within a 100 mile radius of CLT who are flying to Berlin if at least 350 passengers a day from the rest of the country are and don't want to deal with the insanity of say, JFK (or worse, PHL)?

[TCLT]

1 minute ago, Phillydog said:

Incredibly stupid question -- if you are a hub the idea is that you fly passengers from multiple points to a single point, gather them there, and then connect them to flights to a final destination.  On a daily flight out of say, CLT, to say, Berlin, does it really matter if there are any passengers residing within a 100 mile radius of CLT who are flying to Berlin if at least 350 passengers a day from the rest of the country are and don't want to deal with the insanity of say, JFK (or worse, PHL)?

It depends. It's a lot harder to control ticket prices and maintain a revenue premium on connecting passengers since you're offering essentially the same product as every other one stop itinerary. So an AA flight XXX-CLT-GRU for example competes within its own network against XXX-DFW-GRU, XXX-MIA-GRU, XXX-JFK-GRU, and XXX-LAX-GRU. That's not too huge a deal since the airline can revenue manage its own prices to direct capacity through the hubs that make the most sense for its network. But it is also competing against all of the available routings on Delta and United as well as any foreign carrier who is also able to offer a one stop option, so that puts a ceiling on what AA can charge. So the differentiator then becomes overall connection time which is driven by schedule and geography. On the geography front for flights to South America, every hub is at a disadvantage to MIA so any one stop routing adds distance compared to a one stop through MIA. On top of that, these long haul widebody flights are very expensive to operate. Even moreso for deep South America flights where the schedule pattern requires the aircraft to sit idle for almost a full 24 hours on the South America side before turning back to the US. Low utilization results in far less revenue potential so that's an opportunity cost the airline has to bear. On top of that, demand from South America, especially Brazil, is almost entirely concentrated on Florida (Miami area and Orlando), NYC, and LA with Miami being by far the largest share. And people pay a premium for a nonstop flight. So why would AA route traffic that is probably headed to Miami or NY through CLT on cheaper fares when they have hubs in both of those cities. Any passengers that need to get to other cities in the US can be accommodated on the existing Miami flights that are generating higher revenue from being filled with mostly nonstop fares and are a more efficient geographic routing. MIA's domestic network probably covers nearly all of the cities where there is meaningful demand so you still keep a one stop itinerary. Using up expensive widebody aircraft on a flight from CLT that provides little to no unique benefit to the network isn't a winning proposition. Regarding airport preference, most passengers don't know or care which airport they connect through as long as total travel time and price meet their needs. Frequent fliers and premium passengers might care more, but airport amenities probably make a bigger difference and CLT is pretty lacking in that regard compared to JFK, MIA, and DFW or Delta's and United's premier hubs. That was a bit ramble-y, but hopefully it makes some sense.

Keep in mind too that a lot of the reasons that make South America flights not viable from CLT don't apply to European flights. Because of time zone differences, the aircraft can turn back to the US almost immediately so you have much higher utilization. CLT is much better placed geographically to connect the south and southeast to Europe. And there's far far more demand from small and midsize cities to Europe (especially for summer vacations) than there is to South America.

[LKN704]

Me thinks the Centurion Lounge might be opening pretty soon, Amex now has a website for the CLT lounge: https://thecenturionlounge.com/locations/CLT/

Edited February 5, 2020 by LKN704

[Vitamin_N]

On 2/5/2020 at 5:57 PM, LKN704 said:

Me thinks the Centurion Lounge might be opening pretty soon, Amex now has a website for the CLT lounge: https://thecenturionlounge.com/locations/CLT/

Shout-out in today's Charlotte Ledger:

Quote

"This week, the good folks on the internet discussion group Urban Planet discovered that there's a page dedicated to the new lounge on an American Express website that says it is coming soon."

 

[Dale]

Just another one of those little experiences that has me appreciating what we have: as my flight from Cleveland to CLT was cancelled yesterday, due to obvious reasons, I rented a car to drive home. Based on the next available flight out, I reckoned that I could drive home just as quickly. 

The Cleveland rental center was a ten minute bus ride from the terminal. By contrast, at CLT, you drive into a garage, park the car and walk into terminal. Easy-Peasy.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Dale

[11 HouseBZ]

 

19 minutes ago, Dale said:

Just another one of those little experiences that has me appreciating what we have: as my flight from Cleveland to CLT was cancelled yesterday, due to obvious reasons, I rented a car to drive home. Based on the next available flight out, I reckoned that I could drive home just as quickly. 

The Cleveland rental center was a ten minute bus ride from the terminal. By contrast, at CLT, you drive into a garage, park the car and walk into terminal. Easy-Peary.

You might of seen me then, I was the idiot in the black truck who accidentally drove into the bus arrivals area to get my wife. Yeah... whoops! 

Edited February 7, 2020 by 11 HouseBZ

[Dale]

2 hours ago, 11 HouseBZ said:

 

You might of seen me then, I was the idiot in the black truck who accidentally drove into the bus arrivals area to get my wife. Yeah... whoops! 

Ha! It was a little crazy around midnight. But I literally parked the rental, dropped the keys, was on a shuttle and back to my car in under 15 minutes.

Also noticed, flying out, that security was tons more relaxed for some reason.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by Dale

[U_R_]

American Airlines from mid-February 2020 is launching codeshare partnership with Brazilian carrier GOL, covering various routes within and beyond Brazil. Planned codeshare routes to commence on 13FEB20. The oneWorld carrier since 01FEB20 discontinued codeshare partnership with LATAM Airlines Group, including LATAM Airlines Brasil.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/289431/american-airlines-gol-begins-codeshare-service-from-mid-feb-2020/

Will be interresting to see how the battle for South American partners ends up. I do find it funny how Delta and America have switched between the same South American partners many twice now I believe.

[CltFlyer]

The Centurion Lounge entrance next to the E checkpoint appears to be nearing completion.  Lights also appeared to be on in the lounge.  
 

 

[LKN704]

They also just applied for a temporary liquor license https://abc.nc.gov/Permit/Information/275309

I would guess the opening would be either April or May.

Edited February 12, 2020 by LKN704