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Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion


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56 minutes ago, a2theb said:

Any clue where I can find the 3 major's route cuts online in some sort of open data source? 

I don't know if I am allowed to speak about another website, but check out airliners.net. There is a poster named enrilia who does OAG weekly update threads. This would be a really good place to start.

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1 hour ago, a2theb said:

Any clue where I can find the 3 major's route cuts online in some sort of open data source? 

There's various places where people post some amount of the OAG data (like the one Ric0_0 mentioned) that you could try to scrape what you want from, but the raw schedule data isn't freely available. You'd need to pay to get it from OAG. BTS has a ton of airline data, but nothing as granular as detailed schedule changes and their data lags several months. The majors have all publicly posted schedule change summaries on their websites, but I'm guessing that's not the level of data you're looking for.

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Just now, TCLT said:

There's various places where people post some amount of the OAG data (like the one Ric0_0 mentioned) that you could try to scrape what you want from, but the raw schedule data isn't freely available. You'd need to pay to get it from OAG. BTS has a ton of airline data, but nothing as granular as detailed schedule changes and their data lags several months. The majors have all publicly posted schedule change summaries on their websites, but I'm guessing that's not the level of data you're looking for.

Going to try and scrape the weekly posts Ric0_0 mentioned and see where that goes. 

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2 hours ago, a2theb said:

Going to try and scrape the weekly posts Ric0_0 mentioned and see where that goes. 

The schedule changed are good and you could also maybe check FlyerTalk forums for the Big 3 relating to operational impact/schedule changes. A few posters have posted the schedule changes in the Delta forum and the UA forum, so I presume there must be some for American.

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On 4/2/2020 at 7:02 PM, LKN704 said:

It looks like LH is showing CLT-MUC tentatively resuming on 4 May with a A346. I find that to be extremely optimistic and wouldn't be surprised if that gets pushed back and/or down-gauged. 

It appears the new date is now May 18th for LH( A346). Hope it sticks

Edited by JetBlueCLT
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Technically speaking the A346 is an upgrade. The seats are wider in Economy and the 2-4-2 configuration is so much more comfortable than the 3-3-3 configuration.  The A346 will also return First class service to the route.  

The A359 is definitely more modern, however, with mood lighting and larger overhead bins. 

Edited by LKN704
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2 hours ago, atlrvr said:

I love having the A340-600....4 engines, longest plane in service.  Just feels more special, even if older.

100% agreed.  I love  4-engine aircraft and the A340-600 is a beautiful bird.  Will be nice to see something besides twin-engined aircraft all the time.  

I do wonder if the A350 will be back on the route in the future.  Lufthansa is reportedly parking 7 of their A340-600s and they only have 10 now according to Wikipedia.

Edited by cltbwimob
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18 hours ago, UrbanCharlotte said:

What does this mean for LH MUC-CLT connection? Still slated to return 5/18?

I don't know the logistics for LH long haul network but one could imagine the negative impacts of losing 17 long haul aircraft could have. I would go off a limb and say that May 18th date isn't going to happen with the A346s being parked. One could speculate that LH could move some A330s back to MUC which would suit the MUC-CLT a lot better. According to wiki LH still has 27 A359s that are scheduled for delivery through 2027. Theres also those 20 789 order that is to be split between Lufthansa, Austrian and Swiss. Keep in mind that those 20 789s are TBD on how many each of the 3 airlines are getting. 

We will see how strong LH/BMW ties are to the Charlotte area and any other German connections between the 2 cities.  

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6 hours ago, JetBlueCLT said:

I don't know the logistics for LH long haul network but one could imagine the negative impacts of losing 17 long haul aircraft could have. I would go off a limb and say that May 18th date isn't going to happen with the A346s being parked. One could speculate that LH could move some A330s back to MUC which would suit the MUC-CLT a lot better. According to wiki LH still has 27 A359s that are scheduled for delivery through 2027. Theres also those 20 789 order that is to be split between Lufthansa, Austrian and Swiss. Keep in mind that those 20 789s are TBD on how many each of the 3 airlines are getting. 

We will see how strong LH/BMW ties are to the Charlotte area and any other German connections between the 2 cities.  

My brother and his family need to come home from Albania and hopefully via Lufthansa but right now their country's airport is closed except for flights to Turkey.  They normally have flights to Germany I do hope even these European connector routes are back in place by mid June. 

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On 4/17/2020 at 9:33 PM, UrbanCharlotte said:

What does this mean for LH MUC-CLT connection? Still slated to return 5/18?

I'm doubtful any flights to Europe from CLT will resume by May 18. The executive orders barring travelers from Europe are still in effect. Those orders also require US residents to return to the US via one of several approved airports and CLT is not one of them. Even if those orders are lifted I can't imagine CLT would be in Lufthansa's initial batch of resumptions. Demand for flights is non-existent. I imagine Lufthansa would start with a handful of flights to major markets and United hubs so that they can consolidate US bound passengers onto as few flights as possible and let United take them the rest of the way. If AA does indeed resume the route this summer and remains committed to it, it might well be the end of Lufthansa here at least for the next couple years.

 

50 minutes ago, JetBlueCLT said:

A 777-200 slipped in yesterday. Looks to be parked in the hangar area. I wonder if this is an indication of things to come in regards to what aircraft is going to operate CLT-LHR. 

Wow, good catch! B777 and B787 are the only widebodies AA is operating right now so if there was any need for cargo capacity to CLT it would have to be one of those fleets. But I do think it's likely that the A330 has flown its last flights for AA and will not be part of the fleet post COVID. B772 would be the logical aircraft for LHR once those flights resume.

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8 hours ago, TCLT said:

I'm doubtful any flights to Europe from CLT will resume by May 18. The executive orders barring travelers from Europe are still in effect. Those orders also require US residents to return to the US via one of several approved airports and CLT is not one of them. Even if those orders are lifted I can't imagine CLT would be in Lufthansa's initial batch of resumptions. Demand for flights is non-existent. I imagine Lufthansa would start with a handful of flights to major markets and United hubs so that they can consolidate US bound passengers onto as few flights as possible and let United take them the rest of the way. If AA does indeed resume the route this summer and remains committed to it, it might well be the end of Lufthansa here at least for the next couple years.

 

Wow, good catch! B777 and B787 are the only widebodies AA is operating right now so if there was any need for cargo capacity to CLT it would have to be one of those fleets. But I do think it's likely that the A330 has flown its last flights for AA and will not be part of the fleet post COVID. B772 would be the logical aircraft for LHR once those flights resume.

AA has officially retired the nine 333s. CLTs  routes that were 333s will be a mix of 772s and 788s. The 332s are sticking around though until all 787s are delivered.

Anyone that gets these 772s for business travel should hope they have the super diamond seats. 

Edited by BarrenLucidity
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From https://www.airfarewatchdog.com/blog/50112379/the-airlines-most-and-least-likely-to-survive-the-covid-19-crisis/ 

I'll assume the author may have a broader view of the airline industry that may exceed many of ours). Their number 1 is Charlotte's on largest carrier, AA. I only share here because of the absence of the NC when referring to our fair city:

Quote

American Airlines

The largest airline in the world in terms of passengers carried in 2019 is likely to come out of the crisis just fine thanks to $5.8 billion in government aid, brand recognition, and a network that can keep cities around the world connected with its partnerships and alliances. The hub and spoke model of route networks is likely to become more prominent when the industry emerges and American’s hubs in Dallas and Charlotte will remain a vital part of its network. It may even decide to focus more on Chicago service to better connect cities in the Northwestern half of the country with the East Coast. International flying will likely take more time to recover, so its Miami hub may be downsized more than others and American will likely rely on airline partners to fly passengers beyond major international hubs around the world.

 

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2 hours ago, BarrenLucidity said:

The 332s are sticking around though until all 787s are delivered.

Maybe, maybe not. I lean towards not. At the very least I don't think they'll fly again this year. All of them have been moved to ROW for extended storage and they will definitely not be needed to fly the planned fall and winter long haul schedule.

Another thing to add, with the entire fleet going into storage I'm not sure what AA is planning on doing with the pilot pool for that fleet and what percentage of those pilots are going to take the early out packages. It probably won't be worth it to maintain a small pilot pool for a fleet of 15 aircraft when the B777 and B787 fleets are already far more aircraft than needed to fill demand over the next couple years. And in the meantime those pilots won't be able to fly and maintain qualifications. 

Edited by TCLT
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CLT Airport got $135 Million from the CARES Act...this should allow it to continue to finance the current construction contracts. Currently the airport has 3 main revenue sources Parking Fees, Concession Profit Sharing, and Passenger Ticket Fees. With traffic down some 90% those funding sources have become nearly non-existent. The model they are going with now is projecting a slow gradual return in flights and passenger numbers starting sometime this summer, and then taking over a year for a full recovery in passenger traffic. Of course that is all subject to change with reality. So I would expect all future Capital projects that don't already have an approved contract to be put on hold. (Concourse A Phase 2 expansion)

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3 hours ago, TCLT said:

Maybe, maybe not. I lean towards not. At the very least I don't think they'll fly again this year. All of them have been moved to ROW for extended storage and they will definitely not be needed to fly the planned fall and winter long haul schedule.

Another thing to add, with the entire fleet going into storage I'm not sure what AA is planning on doing with the pilot pool for that fleet and what percentage of those pilots are going to take the early out packages. It probably won't be worth it to maintain a small pilot pool for a fleet of 15 aircraft when the B777 and B787 fleets are already far more aircraft than needed to fill demand over the next couple years. And in the meantime those pilots won't be able to fly and maintain qualifications. 

They are 100% retiring the 333s -- https://onemileatatime.com/american-airlines-retiring-737-a330/

  • All nine of their Airbus A330-300s, which were delivered to the airline in 2000-2001; the airline will maintain their fleet of 15 A330-200s

AA accelerated their 787 orders and shifted the 777-200 to CLT. The 332s may end up in CLT or PHX once PHL gets the rest of their 787s.... but the 332s are only sticking around for a few more years. 

I do think flying will recover ~60-70% towards the last quarter but agree that only some of the fleet may see the light of day. All of my business travel is still on hold until late fall at the earliest and I'm not alone there, nor is my company. 

Wouldn't be surprised if you see some weird 332 usage (PHL, SFO, LAX, ORD, SEA, DFW <---> CLT). Consolidated flight schedules for the widebodies to make it economical. It's not unusual to see wide bodies on these intra-hub flights in the winter. All of the E-190s are gone too so 319s/321 shifts are up to work on as well. CLT <---> MEX is a 319, for instance, and a 321 can probably serve that route when they shift the 319s to the 190 markets. 

Edited by BarrenLucidity
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45 minutes ago, BarrenLucidity said:

They are 100% retiring the 333s -- https://onemileatatime.com/american-airlines-retiring-737-a330/

  • All nine of their Airbus A330-300s, which were delivered to the airline in 2000-2001; the airline will maintain their fleet of 15 A330-200s

AA accelerated their 787 orders and shifted the 777-200 to CLT. The 332s may end up in CLT or PHX once PHL gets the rest of their 787s.... but the 332s are only sticking around for a few more years. 

I do think flying will recover ~60-70% towards the last quarter but agree that only some of the fleet may see the light of day. All of my business travel is still on hold until late fall at the earliest and I'm not alone there, nor is my company. 

Wouldn't be surprised if you see some weird 332 usage (PHL, SFO, LAX, ORD, SEA, DFW <---> CLT). Consolidated flight schedules for the widebodies to make it economical. It's not unusual to see wide bodies on these intra-hub flights in the winter. All of the E-190s are gone too so 319s/321 shifts are up to work on as well. CLT <---> MEX is a 319, for instance, and a 321 can probably serve that route when they shift the 319s to the 190 markets. 

No doubt that the A333s are gone, that is absolutely 100% certain. What I'm saying is that I don't think the A332s surviving is a sure thing. That article was from almost 3 weeks ago. Things have been changing (for the worse) rapidly for the industry and eliminating the costs of a very small subfleet (parts, maintenance, crew, training, operations, etc) is going to be very very tempting in an environment where profitability is questionable. Plus those A332s are owned, young, and probably sellable and cash is something airlines need desperately right now. Simplifying the widebody fleet down to essentially two types is going to provide a lot of benefits in terms of cost and operational flexibility.

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15 hours ago, TCLT said:

I'm doubtful any flights to Europe from CLT will resume by May 18. The executive orders barring travelers from Europe are still in effect. Those orders also require US residents to return to the US via one of several approved airports and CLT is not one of them. Even if those orders are lifted I can't imagine CLT would be in Lufthansa's initial batch of resumptions. Demand for flights is non-existent. I imagine Lufthansa would start with a handful of flights to major markets and United hubs so that they can consolidate US bound passengers onto as few flights as possible and let United take them the rest of the way. If AA does indeed resume the route this summer and remains committed to it, it might well be the end of Lufthansa here at least for the next couple years.

 

Wow, good catch! B777 and B787 are the only widebodies AA is operating right now so if there was any need for cargo capacity to CLT it would have to be one of those fleets. But I do think it's likely that the A330 has flown its last flights for AA and will not be part of the fleet post COVID. B772 would be the logical aircraft for LHR once those flights resume.

Thanks! I stopped by this morning but didn't bring my camera. I'll go out later and get a picture of it.

Edited by JetBlueCLT
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Just sayin': I can appreciate all of this OAG stuff but the title of this thread is Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion yet I can go to the Honeywell, Ally, LU etc. and get daily updates! In fact, the last CLT pic that was filed on this thread was 3/2/2020, TEN PAGES AGO! Please someone drive out to the "Free for the first hour" lot and grab some updates, please?

Edited by stiluvclt
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