Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[LKN704]

23 minutes ago, kermit said:

I have wondered about this, but I cavalierly assumed that such requirements would only apply for areas under runways and adjacent to terminals (although that is just a guess). Applying these rules to approach roads and parking decks (where there is no security screening anyway) seems a little non-sensical?

The MSP light rail setup has always intrigued me. They use LRT as a connector between their two terminals and trains between the airport stations operate 24 hours, unlike the rest of the blue line. (disclaimer, its been a few years since I have been landside at MSP). I was kinda hoping CLT would take this approach when building a second terminal, but an existing people mover would make more sense.

Perhaps one day we can have a West blvd LRT route (to the River District???) that has a stop directly at a new South terminal?

I recall reading a document (can't remember who published it nor can I find, it might have either been the FAA or a think tank) that specifically mentioned how the the MSP station (the one that is underground) as well as its tunneled approaches, along with the SFO Airport BART station and the upcoming Dulles Metro (which is now probably an archetype of a transit expansion basket case with its embarrassing concrete issue) station had to be built in a specific manner to be able to withstand the blast from an explosive.  But those stations are all directly connected to the terminal area somewhat. 

I'm incredibly confused as to how the APM guideway will be laid out on airport property. Old renderings (going back to 2010) called for the construction of the guideway in the space between the current garages, with stations at each garage before ending at a terminal station that would be connected to the Main Terminal building, Concourse E, and the 2nd Terminal/A North.  

[kermit]

2 hours ago, CLT> said:

Agreed as well.

If you've ever tried to take DART at DFW, even if you arrive in the terminal where the station is it takes a good 15min of walking and ramps to get to the station, I'd much rather have a 2-3min people mover ride and drop down an elevator to the platform. I seem to remember CLE and a few other airports where its a hike to the LRT stations and they're 'at the terminal' for all practical purposes,

I agree, I would also prefer a people mover to a 10-15 minute walk to the terminal from transit. A long walk is required to reach transit in Seattle, ORD and MDW and BOS (to the blue line) in addition to DFW.  Even the not yet opened IAD metro rail station will be more than 1,000 feet from the terminal entrance.

The DART orange and green lines pass less than 2,000 feet from the Love Field terminal and its a 'you can't get here from there' situation. Its a similar no access situation in San Diego as well.

ATL, SLC, BWI, PDX, MSP and DCA seem like the gold standards for terminal-transit access. The first four are at the end of their respective transit lines which makes terminal access much easier. MSP used LRT for transfers between terminals and Washington Metro was (close to) a 'cost is no issue' system (at a small airport). So now that I have typed this out it seems like direct terminal access really only happens where the airport is at the end of the transit line, and even then, its still not always close.

In terms of transit I would bet  that better access to uptown for Gaston county commuters will have bigger benefits for Charlotte than one-seat ride airport access.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by kermit

[Norm2]

1 hour ago, CLT> said:

Agreed as well.

If you've ever tried to take DART at DFW, even if you arrive in the terminal where the station is it takes a good 15min of walking and ramps to get to the station, I'd much rather have a 2-3min people mover ride and drop down an elevator to the platform. I seem to remember CLE and a few other airports where its a hike to the LRT stations and they're 'at the terminal' for all practical purposes,

O'hare's 'L' station is a little bit of a hike to the terminal. The station is underground and you have to walk through the subterranean tunnels to get into the terminal. It's not bad if you're a fast walker, but if you don't walk fast or are ellderly, the distance might be a problem.

[Madison Parkitect]

42 minutes ago, kermit said:

I agree, I would prefer a people mover to a 10-15 minute walk to the terminal from transit. A long walk is required to reach transit in Seattle, ORD and MDW and BOS (to the blue line) in addition to DFW.  Even the not yet opened IAD metro rail station will be more than 1,000 feet from the terminal entrance.

The DART orange and green lines pass less than 2,000 feet from the Love Field terminal and its a 'you can't get here from there' situation. Its a similar no access situation in San Diego as well.

ATL, SLC, BWI, PDX, MSP and DCA seem like the gold standards for terminal-transit access. The first four are at the end of their respective transit lines which makes terminal access much easier. MSP used LRT for transfers between terminals and Washington Metro was (close to) a 'cost is no issue' system (at a small airport).

In terms of transit I would bet  that better access for Gaston county commuters will have bigger benefits for Charlotte than one-seat ride airport access.

 

 

Yeah, Seattle's airport stop is a good quarter-mile walk to the terminal, and until recently wasn't even enclosed. It just wound through the parking decks.

[CLTaviation13]

On 5/2/2020 at 6:52 PM, TCLT said:

N404AN, an AA A321NEO, arrived at CLT on a flight from PHX on Wednesday. I believe this is the first time a NEO has visited Charlotte. It is still hanging out on the ramp with the B772 that showed up here a couple weeks ago. 

 

Edit: Thanks for the correction JetBlueCLT! Indeed the A321NEO has been flying through CLT since at least mid March. For example, N402AN on 3/16; N401AN on 4/4 and 4/5; N400AN on 4/10; N403AN on 4/6, 4/7, 4/22, and 4/23; and more. Didn't realize they had been around here so much.

No problem, sorry for the late response. I've been caught up with final exams. Pretty neat though, I've seen a lot of NEOs sneak in since I got back to Charlotte.  Saw 400AN come in today and it looks to be operating LAX-CLT-LAX for the next few days. Hope this trend continues post COVID. 

[xapostrophe]

The train in MIA is the tri rail. it has an airport connector train.  which takes you to the rental car facility.  its a long ass walk from there to the terminals.  its generally dim and poorly lit.  I hated that.

FLL uses a bus to take you to the tri rail. runs something like every 30-45 minutes.  pbi has no connection.  UBER or cab etc.

[stiluvclt]

What happened to all of the speculation about connecting the Silver Line with the River District?

 

[CLT2014]

21 minutes ago, stiluvclt said:

What happened to all of the speculation about connecting the Silver Line with the River District?

Gaston County got interested in transit and offered $$$ to help with construction cost and bring the line to Belmont. River District would just be extra mileage funded entirely by Mecklenburg. 

[stiluvclt]

It makes no sense to make the same mistake of not extending the Blue Line to Pineville and subsequently to Ballentyne.. Let's do the Silver Line to Airport,  Airport business district, River District, Belmont . What do you say?

 

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

17 hours ago, xapostrophe said:

The train in MIA is the tri rail. it has an airport connector train.  which takes you to the rental car facility.  its a long ass walk from there to the terminals.  its generally dim and poorly lit.  I hated that.

FLL uses a bus to take you to the tri rail. runs something like every 30-45 minutes.  pbi has no connection.  UBER or cab etc.

PBI has a bus to West Palm Tri Rail/Virgin Brightline station 3.6 miles away.

[CLT2014]

14 hours ago, stiluvclt said:

It makes no sense to make the same mistake of not extending the Blue Line to Pineville and subsequently to Ballentyne.. Let's do the Silver Line to Airport,  Airport business district, River District, Belmont . What do you say?

The River District is about 2.5 miles south of Wilkinson Blvd so it would likely have to be a spur route rather than on the same route as Belmont. 

One challenge with a spur is the perception of a long ride time compared to more direct routes in a car. Passengers going from the River District to Uptown would have a route approximately 11.5 miles long since it would have to swing up and around the airport instead of travel down West Boulevard. The Blue Line Extension for example takes about 3.6 minutes to travel one mile. Applying that to the River District routing would be a 41.5 minute ride time. 

Even in rush hour both directions, this route can often be done in just 30 minutes in a car (though one can forecast congestion to be worse with all the additional vehicles from the River District). The unknown is what commuting patterns will be for the River District once built out. Will many people live in Uptown, but work in the River District and vice versa or will the River District become a secondary employment hub pulling residents that live in Gaston County, Steele Creek area, South End, Fort Mill, North Charlotte, Huntersville, et... A connection for the River District to another business district (Uptown), isn't necessarily as important as the connection to nearby residential areas where people that work in the River District may end up living.

For Ballantyne, while there is certainly an advantage connecting the office space to light rail, the biggest problem with congestion in that area is a zip code with a population north of 50,000 people, many of whom are white collar bankers commuting to Uptown but living in Ballantyne for schools. Walk around Bank of America offices and Uptown and ask how many live in Ballantyne area (and complain of the drive). Its a lot and many would shift to light rail. Traffic is worse going out of Ballantyne in the AM and back in the PM. For Ballantyne offices themselves, I suspect light rail will do little to address commuting patterns into Ballantyne other than South End residents that work in Ballantyne (and not even address the RedVentures problem). A significant amount of Ballantyne employers pull from the Fort Mill, Matthews, South Charlotte, Union County, et. housing markets and will still drive since the light rail routing doesn't cover them. The real value of Ballantyne light rail is getting the residents in that area onto the train for their AM commute to Uptown and PM commute back. 

Edited May 13, 2020 by CLT2014

[xapostrophe]

6 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

PBI has a bus to West Palm Tri Rail/Virgin Brightline station 3.6 miles away.

News to me.  I used to live in the building next to the West Palm station.   

[stiluvclt]

Solid, informative answer to my question! I just think that even having a spur to River District like what is talked about to the terminal, would save money over the long haul (no pun intended). Obviously Pineville made a mistake by not wanting the Blue Line to go to downtown Pineville because of potential traffic problems. No traffic in Pineville (lol). Had the Blue Line made it to Pineville, an extension to Ballantyne would have been a lot cheaper.

[UrbanCharlotte]

 

Any chance this is feasible?

Edited May 15, 2020 by UrbanCharlotte

[TCLT]

53 minutes ago, UrbanCharlotte said:

Any chance this is feasible?

I really hope so. If we’re still in a situation in 2021 where AA can’t run a summer seasonal flight to Rome from CLT they’d probably be in Chapter 11 and the economy would be dire. I like to think things won’t still be that bad by then. It definitely won’t be on the A333 though lol.

Edited May 15, 2020 by TCLT

[kickazzz2000]

On 5/12/2020 at 1:43 PM, norm21499 said:

O'hare's 'L' station is a little bit of a hike to the terminal. The station is underground and you have to walk through the subterranean tunnels to get into the terminal. It's not bad if you're a fast walker, but if you don't walk fast or are ellderly, the distance might be a problem.

The Heathrow 1/2/3 tube stop is god knows how far from T3.  It took me 20 minutes at least back in October.  

On 5/12/2020 at 1:04 PM, kermit said:

I agree, I would also prefer a people mover to a 10-15 minute walk to the terminal from transit. A long walk is required to reach transit in Seattle, ORD and MDW and BOS (to the blue line) in addition to DFW.  Even the not yet opened IAD metro rail station will be more than 1,000 feet from the terminal entrance.

The DART orange and green lines pass less than 2,000 feet from the Love Field terminal and its a 'you can't get here from there' situation. Its a similar no access situation in San Diego as well.

ATL, SLC, BWI, PDX, MSP and DCA seem like the gold standards for terminal-transit access. The first four are at the end of their respective transit lines which makes terminal access much easier. MSP used LRT for transfers between terminals and Washington Metro was (close to) a 'cost is no issue' system (at a small airport). So now that I have typed this out it seems like direct terminal access really only happens where the airport is at the end of the transit line, and even then, its still not always close.

In terms of transit I would bet  that better access to uptown for Gaston county commuters will have bigger benefits for Charlotte than one-seat ride airport access.

 

 

CLT would be the inverse situation to ATL.  In ATL, you can ride straight to the airport, but the rental cars (and associated ballantynish district) are a quick people mover away.  I'm talking 2-3 minutes max.

In CLT, the Transit Stop and pseudo-Ballantyne would be a people mover ride away while the rental cars are in the garage right next to the terminal.

 

Either is better than DFW, which I suffer through twice a month...the bus ride to the rental car center way out in freaking Waco or Abilene.  No clue even how far the DART bus ride is.  

[KJHburg]

3 hours ago, kickazzz2000 said:

Either is better than DFW, which I suffer through twice a month...the bus ride to the rental car center way out in freaking Waco or Abilene.  No clue even how far the DART bus ride is.  

that is why I fly to Dallas Love if my destination is Dallas. You are right their rental car place is way south of the airport.  

[UrbanCharlotte]

Got this from one of my friends today. Sweet progress.

[#1Son]

I know this is just a concept but if this is the final product for the CLT Gateway stop(s) an  APM should work just fine to connect passengers/employees to the main terminal.  The frequency and number of stops for the APM will determine its effectiveness. Does anyone have an idea what the green line is referencing, and what is potential future CONRAC operations?  Commuter line stop from the River development maybe? 

[LKN704]

The green line I believe is the current railway tracks through the intermodal yard.

[#1Son]

22 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

The green line I believe is the current railway tracks through the intermodal yard.

Makes sense now.  I was thinking the green dot on the line was a stop for the APM, but it is just identifying the crossing over the railroad tracks.  

[LKN704]

I somewhat think that map is inaccurate at this point, and must have been completed before CATS adopted their proposed alignment.

The proposed alignment map from CATS identifies 3 stations near the airport: a Stafford Drive/Harlee/Wilkinson Station, an Airport station (assumed to be the terminus of the APM), and then an I485 station. That map from the airport, however, shows the APM going to the Stafford/Harlee station, and then an "extension/proposed" APM line (assuming that's what the dotted line means) to a second station where I am assuming the Airport station is supposed to be, which doesn't make sense to me.

[TCLT]

28 minutes ago, #1Son said:

Makes sense now.  I was thinking the green dot on the line was a stop for the APM, but it is just identifying the crossing over the railroad tracks.  

The green line is the current railroad tracks, but the development plan also envisions these being used for a potential commuter rail corridor and the green dot would be a rail station. The figure you posted has a key in the development document showing that.

[CLT2014]

I know the airport owns a lot of land around the airport. Are businesses like Park N' Go, The Parking Spot, Fed Ex Freight, the Old Dominion freight facility, the Holiday Inn, Hampton Inn, etc... leasing land from the airport (and thus can be kicked out) or are they just going to offer these businesses money they can't refuse to get them out of there?

Also, I think we can throw the "office" area at the 85/ 485 interchange out the door since that is the massive Amazon warehouse. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by CLT2014

[LKN704]

777s are now loaded in the schedule for CLT-MAD/CDG/FCO next year, in addition to FRA/LHR/MUC.

I would bet that DUB doesn't come back until A321XLRs have been delivered.