Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[allthingsplanes]

^ Wouldn’t that be the collection area for the new underground tunnels from the garage to the terminal?

Edited July 16, 2020 by allthingsplanes

[LKN704]

In an interesting turn of events, AA just announced a partnership with JetBlue and the resumption of some old TWA routes out of JFK (ATH/TLV). 

I view this as quite interesting, considering that AA just also canceled some short haul routes ex PHL and moved them to CLT. AA has repeatedly said that future growth post-Covid will be primarily at DFW/CLT, but I wonder how much of that will be at the expense of PHL. 

[kermit]

^ any chance of Jet Blue adding Canadian routes from BOS or JFK when things get back to normal? (YUL in particular)

Edited July 16, 2020 by kermit

[TCLT]

1 hour ago, LKN704 said:

In an interesting turn of events, AA just announced a partnership with JetBlue and the resumption of some old TWA routes out of JFK (ATH/TLV). 

I view this as quite interesting, considering that AA just also canceled some short haul routes ex PHL and moved them to CLT. AA has repeatedly said that future growth post-Covid will be primarily at DFW/CLT, but I wonder how much of that will be at the expense of PHL. 

I don't think any of these moves is at the specific expense of PHL long term. Even before Covid, AA's strategy was based around growth at DFW, CLT, and DCA which were the highest margin hubs and AA fortresses. DFW and CLT were already huge and efficient connecting hubs so it makes sense that the recovery is going to be even more focused at these two airport. As long as we're looking at an environment where air travel is almost entirely domestic, the megahubs are going to rule the roost and DFW/CLT will suck in all the growth. All the other hubs will be relative losers by virtue of simply not recovering to pre-Covid levels as quickly (or at all). The recent drops from PHL were short routes with little O/D. Since there's essentially zero transatlantic travel, there's no reason to keep short RJ routes when you can route those passengers domestically via mainline flights to the much more efficient CLT hub. The two JFK flights announced today are opportunistic adds for routes with very high local demand at JFK. Everyone else has stopped flying to Athens and there's significantly less capacity to TLV. With El Al currently not operating and likely to emerge re-nationalized as a much smaller and weaker airline, there's an opportunity to grab some easy market share at JFK. Once we recover from the pandemic and transatlantic travel resumes, PHL still makes more sense for AA as the gateway to Europe. It's cheaper than JFK, slightly better placed geographically, and is a larger operation with far more connecting options. It seems unlikely that AA will be able to make things like Prague or Dubrovnik or Budapest work from JFK.

[LKN704]

40 minutes ago, kermit said:

^ any chance of Jet Blue adding Canadian routes from BOS or JFK when things get back to normal? (YUL in particular)

Highly unlikely due to the high cost associated with Canadian airports plus because US-Canada traffic is heavily skewed to the Canadian POS They simply won't waste a slot at JFK for it.

Southwest is also starting CLT-STL "temporarily" during the summer season. 

[csweet]

2 week block for STL? Not sure about this one, might be getting a gauge on the market. With only a 2 week booking window it seems pretty illogical. 

[LKN704]

4 hours ago, csweet said:

2 week block for STL? Not sure about this one, might be getting a gauge on the market. With only a 2 week booking window it seems pretty illogical. 

Southwest has been known to do "trial" runs on routes before starting them on a more permanent basis. I recall they ran Albany-Tampa years ago for a month on Saturdays before announcing the route daily. The close-in booking window does seem illogical I do agree, then again because of COVID airlines have stated that the majority of bookings during this period appear to be last minute, so it may make sense.

In any case, I would guess that the route will likely return on a permanent basis. I'd like to see CLT-ATL return for better North/South connectivity ex CLT, but I doubt it given the way Southwest has been moving away from shorter stage lengths. CLT-Florida would also be nice, but Orlando is a low-yielding blood bath from CLT with Spirit/Frontier/AA already on the route. 

I can't really see Southwest adding anything else from CLT, however. Maybe New Orleans or Kansas City.

Edited July 20, 2020 by LKN704

[kickazzz2000]

38 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

Southwest has been known to do "trial" runs on routes before starting them on a more permanent basis. I recall they ran Albany-Tampa years ago for a month on Saturdays before announcing the route daily. The close-in booking window does seem illogical I do agree, then again because of COVID airlines have stated that the majority of bookings during this period appear to be last minute, so it may make sense.

In any case, I would guess that the route will likely return on a permanent basis. I'd like to see CLT-ATL return for better North/South connectivity ex CLT, but I doubt it given the way Southwest has been moving away from shorter stage lengths. CLT-Florida would also be nice, but Orlando is a low-yielding blood bath from CLT with Spirit/Frontier/AA already on the route. 

I can't really see Southwest adding anything else from CLT, however. Maybe New Orleans or Kansas City.

FLL would be nice.  Caribbean is useless from CLT, almost everything has to go through BWI

[LKN704]

I know some folks on this board always desire more flights to Canada, and it looks like AA is answering those desires. 

CLT-Montreal looks to go from 1x E75 to 2x A319 (the first time this route has ever had mainline) this fall, while Toronto appears to have a second mainline flight (A320) in addition to the daily A319 and multiple CR9s. 

[KJHburg]

On 7/20/2020 at 1:22 PM, kickazzz2000 said:

FLL would be nice.  Caribbean is useless from CLT, almost everything has to go through BWI

Yes FLL would be nice when I last flew Southwest to San Juan (and it was so cheap) I flew to Houston touched down briefly in FLL then to SJU on the way back it was through BWI.  I vowed then not to ever do that again no matter how much it saves LOL> 

[LKN704]

14 hours ago, LKN704 said:

I know some folks on this board always desire more flights to Canada, and it looks like AA is answering those desires. 

CLT-Montreal looks to go from 1x E75 to 2x A319 (the first time this route has ever had mainline) this fall, while Toronto appears to have a second mainline flight (A320) in addition to the daily A319 and multiple CR9s. 

I should add that these up-gauges are extremely tentative and I wouldn't be surprised to see them canceled the way things are going with COVID. Regardless, it is nice to know in the future that AA views Canada as a somewhat important market ex CLT. 

Given the way things are going with the regional jet market, I wouldn't be surprised to see a number of other mainline up-gauge in the near future. It's widely known that AA wants to drop Mesa as an American Eagle contractor, and PSA has retired all CR2s as a result of the pandemic, leaving it with a fleet of CR7s/CR9s. I believe Piedmont is the only 50-seat operator left on the East coast, although Envoy may have a small 50-seat operation left at JFK/LGA. 

 

[xapostrophe]

21 hours ago, LKN704 said:

I should add that these up-gauges are extremely tentative and I wouldn't be surprised to see them canceled the way things are going with COVID. Regardless, it is nice to know in the future that AA views Canada as a somewhat important market ex CLT. 

Given the way things are going with the regional jet market, I wouldn't be surprised to see a number of other mainline up-gauge in the near future. It's widely known that AA wants to drop Mesa as an American Eagle contractor, and PSA has retired all CR2s as a result of the pandemic, leaving it with a fleet of CR7s/CR9s. I believe Piedmont is the only 50-seat operator left on the East coast, although Envoy may have a small 50-seat operation left at JFK/LGA. 

 

Envoy also operates from MIA on the 145.   At least for AA they are the only 145s we have.    UAL still has commutair and expressjet operating 145s on the east coast.

[csweet]

STL service starts today on Southwest, will be interesting to see the loads there.

[LKN704]

On 7/26/2020 at 11:12 AM, xapostrophe said:

Envoy also operates from MIA on the 145.   At least for AA they are the only 145s we have.    UAL still has commutair and expressjet operating 145s on the east coast.

I meant for AA. Forgot about Envoy in MIA.

UA I think is in the process of moving to one 145 operator.

3 hours ago, csweet said:

STL service starts today on Southwest, will be interesting to see the loads there.

In a pre/post-COVID world, loads would be great I would imagine. The question I guess is how are they now. While the route makes sense for WN given its operation in STL, I would guess they may just have excess slack in their fleet at the moment hence they are choosing to fly routes rather than just parking planes. With an increasing number of states imposing "quarantine" restrictions on travelers from NC (I put the word quarantine in quotations because they are technically unenforceable except for maybe Hawaii. The mayor of DC just implemented a mandatory quarantine on travelers arriving from NC, but the airports for DC aren't even in DC themselves and VA/MD aren't included in the quarantine...so it's more of a deterrence) I would imagine a number of NC travelers are either postponing their travels or booking very close in to the departure date. 

[BarrenLucidity]

9 hours ago, csweet said:

STL service starts today on Southwest, will be interesting to see the loads there.

I've already had recruiters for Centene reach out to me. Maybe as they recruit into Charlotte in anticipation of their campus build out this route could see a decent load factor. Temporary office space is already expanding for them here. 

[csweet]

18 hours ago, BarrenLucidity said:

I've already had recruiters for Centene reach out to me. Maybe as they recruit into Charlotte in anticipation of their campus build out this route could see a decent load factor. Temporary office space is already expanding for them here. 

Great point, the only problem with the rep of these load factors is that the route only became bookable 2 weeks ago. How can you get a solid gauge from a 3 week flight with 14 day notice?

[SydneyCarton]

Considering that Charlotte is the number 2 financial center in the U.S.,  I envision significant demand for this supersonic flight between Charlotte and London.   This would really enhance the QC's prestige.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/03/virgin-galactics-supersonic-jet-would-go-nyc-to-london-in-2-hours.html

 

Edited August 4, 2020 by SydneyCarton

[xapostrophe]

17 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

Considering that Charlotte is the number 2 financial center in the U.S.,  I envision significant demand for this supersonic flight between Charlotte and London.   This would really enhance the QC's prestige.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/03/virgin-galactics-supersonic-jet-would-go-nyc-to-london-in-2-hours.html

 

not a chance this happens anytime soon.

[SydneyCarton]

3 hours ago, xapostrophe said:

not a chance this happens anytime soon.

I think that it might.  If Wells moves its HQ to Charlotte, its status as a global financial center will rise significantly.  Since London is the European financial capital (and will remain so even despite Brexit), the demand for air travel between Charlotte and London will grow.

Edited August 4, 2020 by SydneyCarton

[LKN704]

Even if Wells Fargo, Chase Bank, and Citigroup all moved there global HQ to Charlotte, air travel demand on CLT-LON would maybe grow by 50 people PDEW. 

A HQ doesn't mean anything to be honest. Yes, Bank of America's global HQ is now in Charlotte, but the Charlotte HQ isn't really driving high-yielding traffic, and certainly isn't driving high-yielding international traffic. The Charlotte HQ deals much more with Aunt Sally's checking account in Topeka, KS than anything else. Bank of America's high-profile trading, investment banking, and wealth management ops (which are the operations that ultimately drive international air travel) are all handled out of NYC. 

Charlotte isn't really a financial center per se, it's much more a city that is built upon the importance of retail community banking. 

Supersonic flights aren't happening anytime soon. Virgin Galactic is nothing more than a PR firm for the Virgin group at this point. Even if they were to develop a supersonic commercial jet with NASA and Rolls-Royce, I highly doubt the airlines would bite it. Boeing pitched a near supersonic jet (Sonic Cruiser) back in the early 2000s and it failed to gain any orders (I recall Continental being interested) for one simple reason: airlines will always favor lower operating costs/risks over speed. 

[elrodvt]

I'm waiting for space X air. Go up to 100k or so then back down. The economics are ridiculous though.

[xapostrophe]

1 hour ago, elrodvt said:

I'm waiting for space X air. Go up to 100k or so then back down. The economics are ridiculous though.

Wasn't the space ride from Virgin Galactic about $200k? 

The concorde died because it was way too expensive.  I think that there is opportunity for supersonic private jet travel,  I doubt the airlines will be interested any time soon.

[videtur quam contuor]

I did not ride in the Concorde, mores the pity. I was in a plane at a gate in Mexico City and Concorde was at the next gate. I had 30 minutes or so to examine it from my seat window and it  was an astounding work of engineering at that time or any time. I was envious of the passengers I saw boarding before I entered my plane. This was quite some time ago, obviously.

[SydneyCarton]

1 hour ago, xapostrophe said:

Wasn't the space ride from Virgin Galactic about $200k? 

The concorde died because it was way too expensive.  I think that there is opportunity for supersonic private jet travel,  I doubt the airlines will be interested any time soon.

There is definitely demand between NY and London for a new supersonic route.  NY-London is the most profitable air route in the world.  The day will come that Clt-London joins that pack.

[15895]

30 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

There is definitely demand between NY and London for a new supersonic route.  NY-London is the most profitable air route in the world.  The day will come that Clt-London joins that pack.

That doesn’t seem true. Maybe it generates the most revenue just due to the number of seats, but that doesn’t make it profitable or most profitable route. 
 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2020 by AirNostrumMAD