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Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion


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16 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Not a fan of this artist's work though (http://vigilism.com/filter/Drawings/). Looking around his website, they remind me of the utopian-style art that was present in subway systems/public works projects in the 1970s/1980s that don't age well. 

This is actually good news for me as I loved the utopian-syle artworks found in subway systems LOL

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From today. The crown sign and testing the lights on the signage this evening. 

The new CLT entrance sign/structure is quite big. 

Posted Images

I think D (at least the gates that opened back in 2003) is fine. It isn't as nice as some of the newer international terminals in the US, but its workable. The addition of the pendant lights and the LED lights on the building columns that were added in recent years are a welcome addition.

Unfortunately that architectural style with those exposed space-frame roof trusses that were common at airport terminals constructed in the late 1990s/early 2000s (also see JFK Terminal 1 Check-In area, Houston Terminal E Check-In, Fort Lauderdale Terminal 1 Check-In,  Portland Airport (PDX),  JFK Terminal 8, Cincinnati Concourse B, Chicago Midway, etc)  looks ugly/busy now. I know that type of design looked modern at the time, but now every airport with that design looks like a giant warehouse with windows. Not the fault of CLT, as that was what was fashionable at the time. Concourse D's (and E for that matter) just look kinda bizarre with the spiderweb of HVAC shafts intersecting with the trusses. 

The original plans (see below) of the lobby expansion were to have the space-frame roof style with trusses, but they quickly abandoned it for the current design, which is what most airports seem to be building now, with not a space frame truss in sight. 

image.png.c696f1a445ef82e42b5c87fad1ffae8e.png

Anyway, back to D, I don't think the problem is lack of gates, but rather lack of FIS space. 

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I think D (at least the gates that opened back in 2003) is fine. It isn't as nice as some of the newer international terminals in the US, but its workable. The addition of the pendant lights and the LED lights on the building columns that were added in recent years are a welcome addition.
Unfortunately that architectural style with those exposed space-frame roof trusses that were common at airport terminals constructed in the late 1990s/early 2000s (also see JFK Terminal 1 Check-In area, Houston Terminal E Check-In, Fort Lauderdale Terminal 1 Check-In,  Portland Airport (PDX),  JFK Terminal 8, Cincinnati Concourse B, Chicago Midway, etc)  looks ugly/busy now. I know that type of design looked modern at the time, but now every airport with that design looks like a giant warehouse with windows. Not the fault of CLT, as that was what was fashionable at the time. Concourse D's (and E for that matter) just look kinda bizarre with the spiderweb of HVAC shafts intersecting with the trusses. 
The original plans (see below) of the lobby expansion were to have the space-frame roof style with trusses, but they quickly abandoned it for the current design, which is what most airports seem to be building now, with not a space frame truss in sight. 
image.png.c696f1a445ef82e42b5c87fad1ffae8e.png
Anyway, back to D, I don't think the problem is lack of gates, but rather lack of FIS space. 

Is this the current design?13add74820daf4e7dfaea7979cc66cbf.jpg


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7 hours ago, csweet said:

https://www.airportprojects.net/clt-capacity-ea/

 

Well great news, the terminal(s) and runway expansions are going through the EA phase with new renderings in the attached link. Interesting notes: 

-Satellite Terminal

-Wrap around taxiways

-Illuminates the construction of the next A terminal and hardstands

I watched the virtual presentation linked on that page earlier today and thought that they were definitely not going with the satellite terminal, and were also ruling out extending A and further north than the next phase.  Maybe those are not permanently ruled out, but at least not under consideration for 2028. 

Edited by teeg
slightly confusing word deleted
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22 minutes ago, teeg said:

I watched the virtual presentation linked on that page earlier today and thought that they were definitely not going with the satellite terminal, and were also ruling out extending A and further north than the next phase.  Maybe those are not permanently ruled out, but at least not under consideration for 2028. 

Yeah that's the impression I got too. The map of the taxiway and ramp improvements clearly leaves a satellite concourse shaped hole though. So it seems CLT still intends to add a linear satellite concourse down the road. It's also interesting that this map shows the B and C extensions with small nubs in the inside ends which I take to mean that the plan is still to eventually connect the extensions to form another parallel concourse and demolish the B/C arms. So at some point many years in the future we might be looking a lot more like ATL.

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IIRC, planning for Concourse A Phase 2 was well underway (recall the renderings released with the Delta Sky Club) and funding was being allocated for the project (it was discussed on this site that the funding was going to be greater than Phase 1 because they were going forward with the new OAL terminal headhouse as well). This project will likely to be the first to go forward once COVID calms down. I was under the impression that was almost shovel-ready. 
 

Years ago, Jerry Orr wanted to build the stubs  at the end of B/C, connect them together and then demolish the rest of B/C, and then construct a satellite concourse. CLT would then have a main terminal concourse, and then two satellite concourses. That plan has fallen out of favor. 
 

The long term plan now is still to go ahead with the stubs, but also build a hammerhead concourse as well. The city looked at making the hammerhead concourse an international facility, but it was determined that CLT did not have the international traffic to justify a dedicated international satellite.  The plan was then to shift the hammerhead for American Eagle operations, but I don’t know how they justify the construction of the satellite terminal when they are still extending E. 
 

I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again, but the current terminal layout definitely has a lifespan at this point. We cannot just keep adding fingers on to the ancient terminal...it’ll be chaos for ramp operations. CLT should have gotten a SLC-style new terminal makeover. I still believe this will happen, but now because of COVID, it likely won’t happen until 2040-2050 at the earliest.

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On 11/30/2020 at 11:40 AM, csweet said:

I wish that they would expand D to be a much more attractive international terminal. I understand that there really is not anywhere to expand, but there has to be a way to allow for more widebodies in the future. 

Four or five gates on the east side of Concourse C will become widebody/international gates. An underground tunnel will connect them to an expanded FIS hall.

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20 hours ago, LKN704 said:

IIRC, planning for Concourse A Phase 2 was well underway (recall the renderings released with the Delta Sky Club) and funding was being allocated for the project (it was discussed on this site that the funding was going to be greater than Phase 1 because they were going forward with the new OAL terminal headhouse as well). This project will likely to be the first to go forward once COVID calms down. I was under the impression that was almost shovel-ready. 
 

Years ago, Jerry Orr wanted to build the stubs  at the end of B/C, connect them together and then demolish the rest of B/C, and then construct a satellite concourse. CLT would then have a main terminal concourse, and then two satellite concourses. That plan has fallen out of favor. 
 

The long term plan now is still to go ahead with the stubs, but also build a hammerhead concourse as well. The city looked at making the hammerhead concourse an international facility, but it was determined that CLT did not have the international traffic to justify a dedicated international satellite.  The plan was then to shift the hammerhead for American Eagle operations, but I don’t know how they justify the construction of the satellite terminal when they are still extending E. 
 

I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again, but the current terminal layout definitely has a lifespan at this point. We cannot just keep adding fingers on to the ancient terminal...it’ll be chaos for ramp operations. CLT should have gotten a SLC-style new terminal makeover. I still believe this will happen, but now because of COVID, it likely won’t happen until 2040-2050 at the earliest.

Concourse A P2 was always intended to be for airlines other than AA. The EIS clearly says the B & C expansions are to accommodate AA and that expanding A is too far for their hub activity. The new gates that  AA recently took on A are so they can shift some operations over when the B & C construction begins, so A  expansion will continue on another track.

The plan (from how its been told to me) is still this (withe runway 4 being 10000ft and the landside development being different):

S-APS-Charlotte-Douglas-International-Airport.jpg.70394f01eccd3da35609fb1b4b029066.thumb.jpg.d9df9c770eb46e020457ffea00c10e61.jpg

With the midfield concourse replacing E, and the widebody gates being put into C with the current expansion, and being protected in the B expansion. Also of note is that the have kept in the widening of both B&C with this new EIS which should make them even less crowded than the new 'polish' recently did.

Edited by CLT>
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7 hours ago, CLT> said:

Concourse A P2 was always intended to be for airlines other than AA. The EIS clearly says the B & C expansions are to accommodate AA and that expanding A is too far for their hub activity. The new gates that  AA recently took on A are so they can shift some operations over when the B & C construction begins, so A  expansion will continue on another track.

The plan (from how its been told to me) is still this (withe runway 4 being 10000ft and the landside development being different):

S-APS-Charlotte-Douglas-International-Airport.jpg.70394f01eccd3da35609fb1b4b029066.thumb.jpg.d9df9c770eb46e020457ffea00c10e61.jpg

 

No where did I say Phase 2 was for AA (hence why I brought up the OAL terminal headhouse). 

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As discussed earlier this year, the airport went ahead and announced that work/planning would stop on the Concourse A Phase II project and the Concourse D/FIS expansion project due to COVID-19. I had long been under the impression that Concourse A Phase II was almost ready for construction (IIRC construction plans were supposed to start this year), as renderings were released, a call for public artists was completed, amongst other things. The EIS was completed and the FAA granted "finding of no significant impact" on the project Fall 2019.

Someone with more insight in the workings of government construction proposals would know more information, but this site shows that plans/construction documents were published over this summer  (https://www.construction.com/projects/?country=USA&state=NC&query=concourse a expansion), and discloses the cost of each project:

  • Concourse A Expansion Phase II ($165,000,000.00) : "Construction Document" stage, published 20 July 2020
  • Concourse A Expansion Phase III ($100,000,000.00): "Design Development"stage, published 2 June 2020
  • Concourse B Expansion ($460,000,000.00): "Pre-Design Phase", published 2 June 2020
  • Concourse C Expansion ( $460,000,000.00): "Pre-Design Phase", published 2 June 2020

I'm not sure if the full details of each phase are public information, but I would imagine if they were truly re-starting a halted construction project they would make some sort of announcement. Seeing the stage that Phase II is in somewhat confirms my suspicion that the project is ready to go. 

I am assuming Concourse A Expansion Phase III is the new landside terminal housing baggage claim/ticketing for non-AA carriers. It's exciting to see that this project is still on the table.

Concourse B/C expansion I am assuming is the construction of the "fingers" at the end of the present B/C. Unsure though why the cost would be almost 3 times more expensive than building the second pier on Concourse A. 

What's confusing to me is why all of this stuff was published in the middle of the pandemic. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, LKN704 said:

Concourse B/C expansion I am assuming is the construction of the "fingers" at the end of the present B/C. Unsure though why the cost would be almost 3 times more expensive than building the second pier on Concourse A. 

Those projects should include the bump out extensions at the ends plus widening the existing concourses. Modifying the existing structures and especially doing it to an active and in use concourse probably explains much of the higher cost. Not sure if the ramp expansion, taxiway realignments, and decommissioning of 5/23 are included in that cost.

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38 minutes ago, TCLT said:

Those projects should include the bump out extensions at the ends plus widening the existing concourses. Modifying the existing structures and especially doing it to an active and in use concourse probably explains much of the higher cost. Not sure if the ramp expansion, taxiway realignments, and decommissioning of 5/23 are included in that cost.

Given the costs, I would assume the ceiling height might also be lifted as well? 

I can't recall or could be imagining things, but Boston Logan and/or Minneapolis may have done a similar project as well that took the concourse, and built an entirely new frame over the existing structure that was wider and had higher ceilings.

Edited by LKN704
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1 minute ago, LKN704 said:

Delta is dropping CLT-CVG. 

Not surprising, honestly lasted longer than I thought it would. CVG now only has service to Delta hubs/focus-cities, Florida, and BWI/ORD/DFW/IAH/PHL/LAS/PHX/CUN/EWR/DEN. 

Damn, those rust belt secondary hubs have been completely wiped off the map. Cleveland, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Memphis and, in a previous generation, Dayton. Seems like even O’hare was on the decline pre Covid (but that may have been my imagination). So what did all of those in?   Industry consolidation? Changes in aircraft size/range? Population loss? Operations?

Is Detroit still holding on? Does Delta maintain any of the old Northwest Asia routes from there?

apparently I have lots of questions...

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31 minutes ago, kermit said:

Damn, those rust belt secondary hubs have been completely wiped off the map. Cleveland, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Memphis and, in a previous generation, Dayton. Seems like even O’hare was on the decline pre Covid (but that may have been my imagination). So what did all of those in?   Industry consolidation? Changes in aircraft size/range? Population loss? Operations?

Is Detroit still holding on? Does Delta maintain any of the old Northwest Asia routes from there?

apparently I have lots of questions...

From what I understand, Detroit is still a moderately sized hub, mainly for the auto industry, but also because of the very large Middle Eastern communities around the city. As long as the auto industry is healthy, Detroit will still be a busy airport, just not a major (40m) passenger hub. 

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1 hour ago, kermit said:

Damn, those rust belt secondary hubs have been completely wiped off the map. Cleveland, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Memphis and, in a previous generation, Dayton. Seems like even O’hare was on the decline pre Covid (but that may have been my imagination). So what did all of those in?   Industry consolidation? Changes in aircraft size/range? Population loss? Operations?

Is Detroit still holding on? Does Delta maintain any of the old Northwest Asia routes from there?

apparently I have lots of questions...

Cincinnati started getting downsized during Delta's bankruptcy in 2005, which kind of started a snow ball effect of ruining the margins at the hub. The 2008 merger with Northwest  accelerated the downward spiral with Delta gaining access to a more modern airport at Detroit in a larger metropolitan area just 260 miles to the north. With the recession, it didn't make sense to operate two hubs so close together so they picked Detroit over Cincinnati. Consolidating the hubs also allowed the merged airline to compliment the strong Asia-Pacific routes Northwest had operated from Detroit with the European flights Delta operated from Cincinnati into one hub that served both effectively. 

Edited by CLT2014
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21 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

Cincinnati started getting downsized during Delta's bankruptcy in 2005, which kind of started a snow ball effect of ruining the margins at the hub. The 2008 merger with Northwest  accelerated the downward spiral with Delta gaining access to a more modern airport at Detroit in a larger metropolitan area just 260 miles to the north. With the recession, it didn't make sense to operate two hubs so close together so they picked Detroit over Cincinnati. Consolidating the hubs also allowed the merged airline to compliment the strong Asia-Pacific routes Northwest had operated from Detroit with the European flights Delta operated from Cincinnati into one hub that served both effectively. 

The fall of CVG is essentially in lockstep with the fall of Comair after the 2005 bankruptcy. I remember every Delta/Comair flight I took out of Asheville to the northeast always connected through CVG pre 2007ish. Of course this was back when AVL was only served by the mainline branded regionals.

 

Between the 2008 NW merger and the 2007 Comair JFK hub/crew base opening supporting east coast operations , CVG was doomed.

Edited by a2theb
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