Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[csweet]

5 minutes ago, TCLT said:

Consolidation was the driving factor around the reduction in the number of hubs, but geography and market dynamics really decided which ones closed. Bigger hubs will always be more efficient and more profitable because the more passengers you can drive through a single hub, the lower your unit costs will be. It will also allow you to increase service levels AND connectivity which will help improve revenues. Hubs are very expensive to operate, so when possible an airline will always look to push more traffic through one hub rather than split it over multiple. And for the most part, passengers don't mind slightly inefficient routings (backtracking) as long as the schedule and price meets their needs. Another thing that has helped has been improvements in the aircraft. Today's narrowbodies can fly as far as older widebodies and with almost as many passengers. For example, a modern A321 can fly non-stop JFK-LAX and carry up to nearly 200 people. 20 years ago airlines were flying a 767-200 or similar widebodies on transcontinental routes and that plane carried around 200 people.  A narrowbody is waaaaaay cheaper to operate than a widebody. Similarly, modern regional jets like the E175 can reach any point in the continental US from centrally located hubs like DFW or ORD and most of the country from the coasts. So there's less need for intermediate hubs like MEM or CLE when you can easily and efficiently serve the markets from ATL or EWR or SFO. And to LKN704's point about regional jets being more expensive than mainline jets, funneling more traffic through a single hub makes mainline service more viable since you're concentrating more passengers in one place. Similarly to hubs, larger planes have lower unit costs so if you can fill a bigger plane you almost always prefer it to a smaller plane.

And it also doesn't make sense to duplicate a hub's purpose in the network. Take MEM or CLE for example. In the Delta and United networks, those were primarily serving east/west flows (MEM mostly from/to the southeast and CLE mostly from/to the northeast). Those same flows can be served by ATL and ORD almost as efficiently, but with the benefit of funneling traffic through a bigger hub in a metro area with significantly more local demand. Same reason why LAS and PIT were canned by US in favor of PHX and PHL. CLT and SLC got lucky because there are no other reasonable metros from which to serve their traffic flows. For the southeast, the only other major metro with favorable geography is ATL and no one can hope to compete with Delta there (RDU and GSO could've been competitors before Charlotte's massive growth so we got extra lucky things shook out the way they did). For SLC, the only other option for the mountain west is DEN and United has that locked up.  You can intuitively tell from the maps why the hubs that were cut were chosen. Too close to other hubs that are in more desirable places. The exceptions are hubs that serve a unique or necessary purpose. AA's current hub system has a couple of these. In their network, JFK and DCA seem pretty redundant when you have much larger and more capable hubs in PHL and CLT so close. But those local markets are so massive on their own that it makes sense to run smaller operations focused there in tandem with the more efficient connecting hubs close by. This is the reason United keeps such a large operation in LAX despite having a spectacular hub close by in SFO. The market is too important to not be in. 

This is an amazing post, along with the others in regards to this topic. Thank you all for your time in explaining why the airline industry is the way it is today. 

 

Question- With the significant decrease in business travel, can we expect to see even more consolidation with other hubs? As many have mentioned, there is overlap and many hubs have seen 60-70% cuts in weekday traffic. For example, PHL is "only a hub" 2 days a week. PIT's slash made sense, along with every other rust belt hub. But apart from being an alternate to NYC, what does PHL have to offer in the AA network? If this AA partnership with B6 works, won't traffic be funneled through JFK and BOS more than ever? 

 

Sorry, off topic questions. Thanks again everyone!

[TCLT]

1 minute ago, csweet said:

But apart from being an alternate to NYC, what does PHL have to offer in the AA network? If this AA partnership with B6 works, won't traffic be funneled through JFK and BOS more than ever? 

AA is gate/slot constrained at JFK. That combined with the split nature of the NYC airports makes operating a true domestic and international hub there basically impossible. And NYC and BOS are not great geographically for flowing domestic traffic in and out of the northeast. AA will always operate to the major markets from NYC (things like LAX and LHR along with their other hubs) since it's too important to ignore, but I would guess the JetBlue partnership has a more negative impact on AA's NYC operation than on PHL. AA will still always prefer sending passengers through it's own PHL hub than putting them on a JetBlue flight through NY. The JetBlue partnership really is for NY customers who otherwise wouldn't choose AA at all since they have so many options for nonstop flights on other airlines. It's not about a customer in Albany trying to get to Louisville. Those people AA wants to see in PHL so they can keep all the revenue.

[csweet]

10 minutes ago, TCLT said:

AA is gate/slot constrained at JFK. That combined with the split nature of the NYC airports makes operating a true domestic and international hub there basically impossible. And NYC and BOS are not great geographically for flowing domestic traffic in and out of the northeast. AA will always operate to the major markets from NYC (things like LAX and LHR along with their other hubs) since it's too important to ignore, but I would guess the JetBlue partnership has a more negative impact on AA's NYC operation than on PHL. AA will still always prefer sending passengers through it's own PHL hub than putting them on a JetBlue flight through NY. The JetBlue partnership really is for NY customers who otherwise wouldn't choose AA at all since they have so many options for nonstop flights on other airlines. It's not about a customer in Albany trying to get to Louisville. Those people AA wants to see in PHL so they can keep all the revenue.

Pre COVID I would agree with is. However, AA has added multiple new intl routes out of JFK, and axed others at PHL. The fact that domestic travel out of PHL is currently non existent seems to go against the idea that they will funnel pax through PHL vs accepting a cut and utilizing JFK/ B6.

[TCLT]

1 minute ago, csweet said:

Pre COVID I would agree with is. However, AA has added multiple new intl routes out of JFK, and axed others at PHL. The fact that domestic travel out of PHL is currently non existent seems to go against the idea that they will funnel pax through PHL vs accepting a cut and utilizing JFK/ B6.

That's possible, but domestic travel is going to recover faster than international and the PHL domestic hub is way larger, more efficient, and more profitable than LGA/JFK. And the JetBlue partnership is not like the ones with BA or JAL where revenue is fully shared. JetBlue will probably keep most of the revenue from the codeshares on their planes. I'll also say that the international adds out of NYC are routes that are heavily NYC centric (Tel Aviv and Athens) so won't be as reliant on connecting passengers. JetBlue frequent flyers who will now be open to choosing AA international service for the reciprocal benefits and mileage earning are what should tilt these flights into being sustainable. European destinations relying on leisure passengers connecting from all over the country (like Prague, Budapest, Dubrovnik, etc) I just can't see moving to JFK. But I could be wrong.

[csweet]

6 minutes ago, TCLT said:

That's possible, but domestic travel is going to recover faster than international and the PHL domestic hub is way larger, more efficient, and more profitable than LGA/JFK. And the JetBlue partnership is not like the ones with BA or JAL where revenue is fully shared. JetBlue will probably keep most of the revenue from the codeshares on their planes. I'll also say that the international adds out of NYC are routes that are heavily NYC centric (Tel Aviv and Athens) so won't be as reliant on connecting passengers. JetBlue frequent flyers who will now be open to choosing AA international service for the reciprocal benefits and mileage earning are what should tilt these flights into being sustainable. European destinations relying on leisure passengers connecting from all over the country (like Prague, Budapest, Dubrovnik, etc) I just can't see moving to JFK. But I could be wrong.

I definitely agree with you, I don't think PHL is going anywhere. Just curious what it's domestic future looks like. The 787 base at PHL proves that these leisure destinations are not going anywhere, but the MUC shift to CLT goes to show that these business routes could switch. Thanks for your insight!

[LKN704]

17 hours ago, xapostrophe said:

The city of PIT tried to play hardball and call US's bluff when they threatened to de-hub PIT...US wasn't bluffing.  Rest is history.   Grew up in PIT.  It was a sad time.  When I was learning to fly, PIT was in the process of being shuttered. That was strange to witness the skies get quieter.

Very sad what happened to PIT. PIT-LAX was actually my first widebody flight as a kid back in 2000 on a 762. I remember it like it was yesterday...the service was better than Y today transatlantic. There was a drink run, then dinner (with large meals, salads, cheese/crackers fruit, and actual desserts not just the package brownies you get today), a mid-flight ice cream sandwich, and then a snack box with cheese/crackers, a cookie, a carrots w/dip before arrival. Remember back in those days transcontinental flights essentially got two meals, Y got an enhanced snack box before landing and first class would get like a cold deli plate or a sandwich. 

In all fairness though, PIT was stuck between a rock and a hard place. I don't think legally they could have given US preferential treatment over their lease rates without extending the same treatment to other carriers. I just don't think they saw what was coming. 

[LKN704]

Rumors are churning that AA will resume CLT-HNL this Spring.

 

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, LKN704 said:

Rumors are churning that AA will resume CLT-HNL this Spring.

 

Resume? Has there ever been a direct flight to Honolulu? 

[CLT704]

1 minute ago, tozmervo said:

Resume? Has there ever been a direct flight to Honolulu? 

2009 (or 2010 but I seem to remember it starting before Rio de Janeiro, which as Dec 09) on a 767-200, it regularly had to stop in Phoenix or Los Angeles to refuel. It only lasted one season before being canned. 

[LKN704]

It ran from 2009-2010 IIRC. 

Here's a video of the inaugural flight ceremony with Hula dancers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edrs0qgSCtI. 

Embarrassingly for US the inaugural flight (and essentially every other flight as CLT704 mentioned) had to have a tech stop for fuel.

 

[BarrenLucidity]

7 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Rumors are churning that AA will resume CLT-HNL this Spring.

 

Great use of the 772

[Ryepow]

The 772 seems like overkill on that route. The 787-8 seems more logical but haven't seen any signs they want introduce the Dreamliner to CLT yet for some odd reason. 

[LKN704]

Not CLT-related but JetBlue will imminently announcing a focus-city style operation in Raleigh. SFO/AUS/EWR/JAX/LAS/MCO/TPA are appear to be  bookable. This is in addition to serving BOS/CUN/LAX/JFK/SJU/RSW/MBJ nonstop from RDU.

This comes after DL announces that they will be discontinuing several RDU routes. I always saw the Delta operation there simply a way to use excess slack in the fleet, and I figured a good chuck of it would be cut in the next recession. Frankly I think this is better for Raleigh in the long-term, as Delta was truly never going to make RDU a full-fledged focus city, and the vast majority of flights were on regional jets. 

That said, unfortunately there are only so many cities they can serve nonstop via Raleigh because of their fleet. I predict that LGA/BDL/BUF/PVD/ALB/DCA/PIT are all good opportunities for expansion in the future. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by LKN704

[BarrenLucidity]

3 hours ago, Ryepow said:

The 772 seems like overkill on that route. The 787-8 seems more logical but haven't seen any signs they want introduce the Dreamliner to CLT yet for some odd reason. 

Yeah, 787 base for the East is PHL. Doubt they will put one in CLT any time soon with the new 777 base they just opened here. 

[tozmervo]

12 hours ago, LKN704 said:

It ran from 2009-2010 IIRC. 

Here's a video of the inaugural flight ceremony with Hula dancers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edrs0qgSCtI. 

Embarrassingly for US the inaugural flight (and essentially every other flight as CLT704 mentioned) had to have a tech stop for fuel.

Hah, so yeah, I guess "direct" is in air quotes for that flight.

[videtur quam contuor]

Historically for air travel "direct" means one plane the entire trip, though it may stop for fuel or discharge or board passengers at intermediate stops. Non Stop means what it is. With hub and spoke system the past few decades we see many fewer "direct" flights.

[TCLT]

1 minute ago, tarhoosier said:

Historically for air travel "direct" means one plane the entire trip, though it may stop for fuel or discharge or board passengers at intermediate stops. Non Stop means what it is. With hub and spoke system the past few decades we see many fewer "direct" flights.

Typically direct flights also have the same flight number throughout in addition to same aircraft. Southwest flight 1437 today would be an example of this. It offers DEN-LAX direct service but stops at MCI.  An even wilder one is Southwest 582 which is also direct service DEN-LAX but via TUL, LAS, and SMF. Not a flight anyone would actually pay for haha. Southwest is probably the only airline in the US where direct service is still used fairly regularly, but they also don't run a true hub and spoke network.

[tozmervo]

15 minutes ago, TCLT said:

Typically direct flights also have the same flight number throughout in addition to same aircraft. Southwest flight 1437 today would be an example of this. It offers DEN-LAX direct service but stops at MCI.  An even wilder one is Southwest 582 which is also direct service DEN-LAX but via TUL, LAS, and SMF. Not a flight anyone would actually pay for haha. Southwest is probably the only airline in the US where direct service is still used fairly regularly, but they also don't run a true hub and spoke network.

In your SWA example, is that a scenario where all passengers deplane? I was assuming that a refueling stop is one where everyone stays put and the plane takes off again without opening doors. 

[TCLT]

Just now, tozmervo said:

In your SWA example, is that a scenario where all passengers deplane? I was assuming that a refueling stop is one where everyone stays put and the plane takes off again without opening doors. 

If a passenger was ticketed through to a destination that isn't the stop, they wouldn't deplane. Southwest usually tries to turn the plane very quickly.

A fuel stop would not require deplaning unless there was a reason it would take so long that the tarmac delay rules would be violated.

[JRNYP2C]

On 12/16/2020 at 12:07 AM, xapostrophe said:

The city of PIT tried to play hardball and call US's bluff when they threatened to de-hub PIT...US wasn't bluffing.  Rest is history.   Grew up in PIT.  It was a sad time.  When I was learning to fly, PIT was in the process of being shuttered. That was strange to witness the skies get quieter.

I can remember the hoopla that was made when the new PIT airport was ideated and built.  It was going to be the airport design of the future and give a second life (so to speak) to the region.  That was the mid to late 80's, well after the decline of major industry in that area.  Grew up there too, and I was amazed at all of the back and forth that went on with that airport with the decline in population.  I guess the city and county were trying to angle to make it like Charlotte is today and have it be an important HUB.  However, that was right before all of the consolidation of the industry took place, and well, add 9/11 to that, and they are where they are now.  It has been 20 years since I was last in that airport, b/c it is actually easier and cheaper for me to drive back to PGH to visit.  But I remember the landslide terminal being cavernous and full of wasted space and looking very old and dated.  From what I have read and heard from friends that still fly out of PIT is that the airside terminal is only half used and that even the moving walkways are turned off to save money.  Sad, but like I read in someone else's comment, you reap what you sow.  And I think Pittsburgh and Allegheny County (like you said) played hardball and hedged bets and lost.  I don't think that airport will ever get back to a level of profitability like it did when it was opened.

[HopHead]

Thanks for all the information about the hub and some of the history. Lots of cool stuff.

Question on the B&C expansions.  Just based on the sizing of the diagrams, how many more gates is that adding? About 20 total (assume 10 each concourse) which accounts for room for widebodies? I thought I recall seeing that somewhere but I'm too lazy to look it up beyond going back a few pages on the board and the construction link provided lol 

1 hour ago, JRNYP2C said:

I can remember the hoopla that was made when the new PIT airport was ideated and built.  It was going to be the airport design of the future and give a second life (so to speak) to the region.  That was the mid to late 80's, well after the decline of major industry in that area.  Grew up there too, and I was amazed at all of the back and forth that went on with that airport with the decline in population.  I guess the city and county were trying to angle to make it like Charlotte is today and have it be an important HUB.  However, that was right before all of the consolidation of the industry took place, and well, add 9/11 to that, and they are where they are now.  It has been 20 years since I was last in that airport, b/c it is actually easier and cheaper for me to drive back to PGH to visit.  But I remember the landslide terminal being cavernous and full of wasted space and looking very old and dated.  From what I have read and heard from friends that still fly out of PIT is that the airside terminal is only half used and that even the moving walkways are turned off to save money.  Sad, but like I read in someone else's comment, you reap what you sow.  And I think Pittsburgh and Allegheny County (like you said) played hardball and hedged bets and lost.  I don't think that airport will ever get back to a level of profitability like it did when it was opened.

I flew into Pittsburgh back in February right before all the Covid chaos hit. And it looked like PIT hadn't changed or been updated much since it was built. It did feel very cavernous and oversized for the amount of traffic it gets. It's a shame  because it felt like an easy airport to navigate otherwise with the way it's laid out. 

[CltFlyer]

Charlotte- Honolulu has been added!  Seasonal May 6th through September 7th with a 772.  Bookable on AA.com 

 

Bozeman, MT will also be returning daily.  June through Labor Day.

Appleton, WI, and Sioux Falls have been extended to year round.  With Sioux Falls going 2x daily beginning in April.

[KJHburg]

7 hours ago, CltFlyer said:

Charlotte- Honolulu has been added!  Seasonal May 6th through September 7th with a 772.  Bookable on AA.com 

 

Bozeman, MT will also be returning daily.  June through Labor Day.

Appleton, WI, and Sioux Falls have been extended to year round.  With Sioux Falls going 2x daily beginning in April.

I waited for years and years to come as a reality though I like to go outside that season.  I flew on Delta from ATL to HON one year and boy is that a long flight.  at the time one of the longest domestic flights. 

[LKN704]

Looks like the rumors were true. At least this time it’ll be on suitable equipment and the flight will truly be nonstop. 
 

I do wonder if the 772 is too much capacity for the route though I understand there is nothing else to put on the route. It’ll be interesting to see if it sticks around after International traffic picks up and that 772 becomes necessary somewhere else in the system. 

There may be longer Russian domestic flights between Moscow and the Russian Far East, but I believe CLT-HNL is the 6th longest domestic flight in the world . When it was launched I believe it was the 2nd after EWR-HNL. Since then JFK/BOS/IAD/MCO have gained HNL flights. Technically you here are some really long flights between Paris and their remaining overseas territories but I believe you have to go through passport control as the territories aren't part of the Schengen area.

Another rumor I have heard is they may launch service to Kalispell/Glacier Park this summer. If so we will see that announced shortly. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by LKN704

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

21 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Looks like the rumors were true. At least this time it’ll be on suitable equipment and the flight will truly be nonstop. 
 

I do wonder if the 772 is too much capacity for the route though I understand there is nothing else to put on the route. It’ll be interesting to see if it sticks around after International traffic picks up and that 772 becomes necessary somewhere else in the system. 

There may be longer Russian domestic flights between Moscow and the Russian Far East, but I believe CLT-HNL is the 6th longest domestic flight in the world . When it was launched I believe it was the 2nd after EWR-HNL. Since then JFK/BOS/IAD/MCO have gained HNL flights. Technically you here are some really long flights between Paris and their remaining overseas territories but I believe you have to go through passport control as the territories aren't part of the Schengen area.

Another rumor I have heard is they may launch service to Kalispell/Glacier Park this summer. If so we will see that announced shortly. 

Paris to Réunion is a domestic, non passport flight, and its never considered a "longest flight" even though its 5,800+ miles.