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Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion


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18 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

I saw that yesterday and it made me think instantly of the Air Florida crash in DC in the 1980s. Props to the Frontier flight attendant for their quick thinking and for immediately calling the cockpit. 

I think a lot of people underestimate the importance of deicing. That said, I wonder if this type of near-incident would have occurred in an airport in say the Midwest/Northeast. I have frequently read that airports in the Southeast are ill-trained/ill-equipped to handle with widespread de-icing procedures. I recall an event a couple of years back at DFW where there were massive delays due to lack of suitable deicing equipment to go around to every airline that needed it. 

Come to think of it, I have never had to be deiced at CLT. What is the procedure? Does each airline own their own deicing equipment (as is common at Northeast airports...even smaller ones) or does CLT operate a deicing "pad" on the taxiways? 

I remember that DC crash like it was yesterday. The guy (Skutnik) who jumped into the river to try and rescue people from the ice clogged Potomac was beyond heroic.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1982/12/29/a-year-after-icy-rescue-skutniks-life-is-quieter/622bfe97-eb8c-4bfe-917b-59448d08b3e5/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Florida_Flight_90

As a private pilot I can only imagine the stresses a commercial pilot in those situations encounter. However even given my single engine (IFR, complex) training, I just can't imagine what was going through their heads to even commence a takeoff in those conditions without a visual check. Just another, more stressful, example of ”get there itus” I guess. So sad. 

 

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51 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

I saw that yesterday and it made me think instantly of the Air Florida crash in DC in the 1980s. Props to the Frontier flight attendant for their quick thinking and for immediately calling the cockpit. 

I think a lot of people underestimate the importance of deicing. That said, I wonder if this type of near-incident would have occurred in an airport in say the Midwest/Northeast. I have frequently read that airports in the Southeast are ill-trained/ill-equipped to handle with widespread de-icing procedures. I recall an event a couple of years back at DFW where there were massive delays due to lack of suitable deicing equipment to go around to every airline that needed it. 

Come to think of it, I have never had to be deiced at CLT. What is the procedure? Does each airline own their own deicing equipment (as is common at Northeast airports...even smaller ones) or does CLT operate a deicing "pad" on the taxiways? 

Fun de-icing story:  One time I was flying out of Toronto in a massive storm.   Crews were using special tools to knock ice off the engine and fan blades so they could actually get it started so we could get to the deicing pad.  Seeing guys chiseling away ice from the engine you are onboard (since it was an international flight, we were not allowed to de-plane while they took an hour to loosen up the engines) is NOT the kind of things Southerners enjoy seeing. 

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Here's a link for anyone wanting a basic explanation.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/frontier-de-icing-issue/

 

Basically there's 2 types of fluid for deicing.  One for melting, and one for protection as it taxis from the deicing station to the runway.  The contractor had a shortage of the melting type and chose to use mostly (if not only) the preventative type.  This did effectively nothing to help deice the plane, but the contractor informed the flight crew that the wings were clear (which they were not).  

Given that deicing is done away from the gate and is very time sensitive.  It is not standard procedure for the flight crew to physically check the plane after deicing, and they are relying entirely on the deicing crews word.  In this case,  the contractor for the deicing make an inexcusably negligent decision.

Edited by CltFlyer
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4 hours ago, CltFlyer said:

Here's a link for anyone wanting a basic explanation.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/frontier-de-icing-issue/

 

Basically there's 2 types of fluid for deicing.  One for melting, and one for protection as it taxis from the deicing station to the runway.  The contractor had a shortage of the melting type and chose to use mostly (if not only) the preventative type.  This did effectively nothing to help deice the plane, but the contractor informed the flight crew that the wings were clear (which they were not).  

Given that deicing is done away from the gate and is very time sensitive.  It is not standard procedure for the flight crew to physically check the plane after deicing, and they are relying entirely on the deicing crews word.  In this case,  the contractor for the deicing make an inexcusably negligent decision.

The uneven lift would be crazy?

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For those hoping for regular Qatar service (in any form), this Forbes article seems to put the kabosh on that.  Not sure why Forbes would generate a whole story based on this, but it answers some questions and gives some general info about the state of the air cargo industry.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/2021/03/03/pandemic-brings-an-unfamiliar-boeing-777-flight-to-charlotte/?sh=6a83c8d64009

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3 hours ago, BarrenLucidity said:

I would just be happy for a widebody to LAX, SFO, and SEA as a guy that makes those trips pretty regularly. 

They ran a 330 to lax/sfo pretty often from phl for a long time.  Wouldn't surprise me to see similar operations with the 777/787 from clt/phl. 

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AA has loaded their expected European 2021 schedule. FRA/MUC/MAD, along with the 2nd LHR frequency are expected to resume 6 May. Granted so many variables with these flights are up in the air, but I think them simply loading them into the schedule this close-in somewhat shows the confidence they have in these routes from CLT. 

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3 hours ago, LKN704 said:

AA has loaded their expected European 2021 schedule. FRA/MUC/MAD, along with the 2nd LHR frequency are expected to resume 6 May. Granted so many variables with these flights are up in the air, but I think them simply loading them into the schedule this close-in somewhat shows the confidence they have in these routes from CLT. 

Do you have a source for this?  The schedule looks the same that it has looked since January.  FRA/MUC/MAD coming back in May and DUB in June.  I wish all of these would fly this summer, but I don't believe the schedule has been finalized yet.  It is very close in though for it to not be finalized.  

Also,  JONNYC posted this, but I not seeing any of these in  the booking system.  Ontario, CA (ONT) would be very surprising imo.  Especially over cities such as  San Jose, CA (SJC), Albuquerque (ABQ). Tucson, AZ (TUS),  and even Colorado Springs (COS).  The first 3 would be resumptions.  I also wonder how realistic Santa Ana/Orange County, CA (SNA) would be.   They may not find the route valuable enough for a slot though.

 

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4 hours ago, LKN704 said:

AA has loaded their expected European 2021 schedule. FRA/MUC/MAD, along with the 2nd LHR frequency are expected to resume 6 May. Granted so many variables with these flights are up in the air, but I think them simply loading them into the schedule this close-in somewhat shows the confidence they have in these routes from CLT. 

What's the story for Rome-FCO, Paris-CDG, and Barcelona-BCN? Do we think they come back? And is there potential for Amsterdam-AMS and Manchester-MAN to maybe pop up? 

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52 minutes ago, Rufus said:

What's the story for Rome-FCO, Paris-CDG, and Barcelona-BCN? Do we think they come back? And is there potential for Amsterdam-AMS and Manchester-MAN to maybe pop up? 

Those were permanent cuts. I could see them coming back when AA gets the 321XLR's. MAN did terribly from PHL, so I find that add unlikely.

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51 minutes ago, csweet said:

Those were permanent cuts. I could see them coming back when AA gets the 321XLR's. MAN did terribly from PHL, so I find that add unlikely.

They were listed as "permanent", but given the amount of focus AA seems to be going to give CLT during covid, I wouldn't be surprised to see  any or all of FCO, CDG, and BCN back within 2 to 3 years with a 777 or 787.  

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8 hours ago, CltFlyer said:

Do you have a source for this?  The schedule looks the same that it has looked since January.  FRA/MUC/MAD coming back in May and DUB in June.  I wish all of these would fly this summer, but I don't believe the schedule has been finalized yet.  It is very close in though for it to not be finalized.  

Also,  JONNYC posted this, but I not seeing any of these in  the booking system.  Ontario, CA (ONT) would be very surprising imo.  Especially over cities such as  San Jose, CA (SJC), Albuquerque (ABQ). Tucson, AZ (TUS),  and even Colorado Springs (COS).  The first 3 would be resumptions.  I also wonder how realistic Santa Ana/Orange County, CA (SNA) would be.   They may not find the route valuable enough for a slot though.

I saw the Ontario tweet but couldn't find it (nor the DSM/RAP mainline flights) so I figured it hasn't been loaded yet. CLT-ONT is crazy to me, considering that AA could not make CLT-SJC or secondary West Coast cities work. Ontario has historically struggled with East Coast routes historically, and the Inland Empire isn't exactly the strongest region economically speaking. The airport at ONT (while nice) is so underutilized/overbuilt, much like the rest of the Inland Empire. Delta has dropped and resumed ATL-ONT numerous times. Many people would probably recognize the ONT airport terminals as they are frequently used in TV commercials/movies, particularly the check in area. 

CLT-SNA would be a good add. SNA is very high-yielding. I doubt AA has the slots for it though. They just announced the resumption of JFK-SNA. US was supposed to launch CLT-SNA years back on a 752 but never did. 

 

Edited by LKN704
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He's doubling down on his Ontario information.  I can't say I thought we would never get ONT, but assumed it would be after all of the 4 I mentioned above (and possibly others like El Paso, TX (ELP). 

It is worthy to note that AA announced the resumption of Chicago (ORD)-ONT a few weeks ago.   Also, Frontier announced Miami and Chicago to Ontario starting within the next few months and recently started Orlando from Ontario.  Delta is also flying ATL to Ontario at the moment.  It's possible that it's a strengthening market.

Success with ONT would certainly mean that markets like BOI and GEG might be possible, and I would think destinations like SJC, ABQ, and TUS are also being considered.

 

 

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I wouldn't necessarily consider Ontario to be in the same category as Spokane and Boise. 

Remember that Ontario is only 40 miles east of DTLA, and accounting for traffic on the 110, some areas of East LA are probably equidistant to both Ontario Airport and LAX.  Frankly I would think Burbank/Hollywood would make more sense of a route. Quite frankly I think Burbank is the most central and convenient airport in LA (closer to Downtown, the valley, K Town, Los Feliz, Silver Lake, etc than LAX), but again, has had trouble sustaining flights to the East. 

If AA launches CLT-ONT, and doesn't resume SJC/TUS/ABQ, I would assume performance on those 3 routes was horrible. 

Pending how Chicago performs, I could see AA launching CLT-SBA (Santa Barbara) flights. SBA is on a roll right now in terms of expansion/popularity, and there presently aren't any flights to the East Coast from there. My best friends used to live in a small surf town (Carpinteria) about 15 miles south of Santa Barbara and it's a royal pain to get there from the East Coast simply because there are so few options.

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I actually used ONT one time when going to the Pasadena/Arcadia area.  It's good option seeing that it can be cheaper and easier to get to than LAX.  Its market is certainly different than Spokane and Boise, but I'd still put it in the same "third tier" .  At the rate Boise is growing though, we could see a flight to there sooner rather than later.  Burbank does seem to more ideally located but does struggle in particular when it comes to getting east coast flights.  I wonder if it's due to it's lack of infrastructure.  

From what I remember,  loads for SJC and TUS were good, but yields weren't.  I'm still surprised that SJC didn't stick though.  This would be attempt 3 for TUS.  I'm not sure if they will try it again or not.  ABQ was only around for one short season, and I don't honestly know how it did.

SBA has certainly grown, but I would think it is still 5 years or so away, having just gotten DEN/ORD/DFW etc...   If DL tries it from ATL I could see AA giving it a shot from CLT.

Sticking in CA, I wonder if we will see Palm Springs, CA (PSP) or a similar route next winter.  

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some news from Delta it will drop the former hub of Cincinnati that became a focus city but now wont even call it that.   However RDU will remain a focus city as will Austin.

""Delta President Glen Hauenstein told investors on Monday at the Raymond James conference only Austin, Texas, and Raleigh-Durham, N.C., will remain as its focus cities in a downsized airline, according to industry publication Airline Weekly. Also being dropped are Nashville and San Jose.""  From ATL Business Chronicle 

Obviously Delta is not a big player here but they do offer flights to their major hubs of Atlanta and I think Salt Lake.   How this affects CLT is how big they grow RDU.  

 

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That's a little shocking to me that they'd ditch BNA.   I would think that between entities like Nissan, Vanderbilt, HCA, etc., plus the tourism industry which, granted has been fairly nonexistent this past year but it's not going to be that way forever, that they'd be able to make a go of it and want to maintain a decent service level there.  Plus just being one of the hot "It" cities at the moment.   Interesting.

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Delta has always flown to the hub cities (Atlanta, Salt Lake City, Minneapolis, Detroit, La Guardia) from Charlotte for as long as I can remember. What ever happens at RDU won't impact those destinations other than maybe frequency.  I think they had around 25 destinations (give or take) prior to the pandemic and many of those got cut like everyone else. Nashville has a pretty big operation for Southwest so perhaps that's why too.  Would rather JetBlue or Southwest open up more destinations here to drive prices down once traffic gets more normalized come 2022 and beyond. 

On a more related CLT topic, has the new air traffic control tower fully opened yet? I thought it was suppose to last year, but assume the pandemic pushed it back. 

Edited by HopHead
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21 hours ago, CltFlyer said:

I actually used ONT one time when going to the Pasadena/Arcadia area.  It's good option seeing that it can be cheaper and easier to get to than LAX.  Its market is certainly different than Spokane and Boise, but I'd still put it in the same "third tier" .  At the rate Boise is growing though, we could see a flight to there sooner rather than later.  Burbank does seem to more ideally located but does struggle in particular when it comes to getting east coast flights.  I wonder if it's due to it's lack of infrastructure.  

 

I flew Southwest into Burbank from Dallas one time and that runway is so short I thought we were going to end up on The 5.   But boy is that airport convenient to the heart of LA

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