Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

On 3/11/2021 at 7:53 AM, elrodvt said:

Coming from Denver I know how it *could* work...Granted they have a geographic advantage that we'll never have but we could do a LOT better. 

I would disagree with this. We have a very similar geographic advantage to Denver, with more people within a 2 hour and 3 hour flight, than about anywhere in the country.

Denver/SLC is very similar to ATL/CLT and we probably have more people within 100 miles than any of the other airports in that group.

[elrodvt]

3 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

I would disagree with this. We have a very similar geographic advantage to Denver, with more people within a 2 hour and 3 hour flight, than about anywhere in the country.

Denver/SLC is very similar to ATL/CLT and we probably have more people within 100 miles than any of the other airports in that group.

I forget where but have read their location, with no other large airports nearby,  was a key advantage.  I would drive to Atlanta for a decent discount from here hurt I wouldn't drive to SLC from denver.

I believe there is also their heritage of being a major United hub playing a part. No idea how they pivoted from United to most domestic airlines having a decent sized presence. However they pulled it off if geo isn't the reason maybe we can copy. They also have the advantage of being a leisure  destination?

[CLT2014]

7 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

I would disagree with this. We have a very similar geographic advantage to Denver, with more people within a 2 hour and 3 hour flight, than about anywhere in the country.

Denver/SLC is very similar to ATL/CLT and we probably have more people within 100 miles than any of the other airports in that group.

DEN's geographic advantage as a hub to support multiple airlines is it is not driving distance to really any major cities + a major leisure destination. There are about 5 million people in the front range within 1.5 hours of DEN airport and people that live in Colorado need to fly to get outside their state MUCH more than people in the Charlotte area. From Charlotte you can drive to Atlanta, Jacksonville, Washington DC, Richmond, Raleigh, Nashville, Charleston, Hilton Head, Knoxville,  et.... in a few hours. People even drive to Disney World. This suppresses local leisure and business demand as our population often can do a "driving" vacation / trip and be in a new city in a comparable amount of time / hassle to flying.

Over in Denver, nearby cities are very far away: Salt Lake City 8+ hours, Kansas City ~ 9 hours, Albuquerque ~7 hours, et... so if you are going on a trip, you pretty much have to fly. This causes much more local demand, hence only 35% of Denver's passenger count is connecting (largely on United). Add in Denver being the gateway to the Rocky Mountains, the ski resorts, national parks, et... and you have a metro area that can support being a legacy hub for United to connect traffic between the east and western half of the country, along with plenty of leisure demand left over for Frontier and Southwest. 

Charlotte's main advantage is being a connecting hub, which is VERY strong and ~80% of our traffic, but we don't have comparable local demand to an airport like Denver to leave as much room for the non-legacy airlines like Southwest that thrive off local traffic.

Edited March 15, 2021 by CLT2014

[KJHburg]

^^^ I agree with all that above.  Charlotte is days drive of a huge chunk of the US population and many tourist destinations which are the among the most visited in the country.  I enjoy driving as in last year I will drive back to Texas this fall.  It only adds 2 or so days to the trip I would usually take and have my own vehicle with as much luggage as I want to bring.  

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

DEN's geographic advantage as a hub to support multiple airlines is it is not driving distance to really any major cities + a major leisure destination. There are about 5 million people in the front range within 1.5 hours of DEN airport and people that live in Colorado need to fly to get outside their state MUCH more than people in the Charlotte area. From Charlotte you can drive to Atlanta, Jacksonville, Washington DC, Richmond, Raleigh, Nashville, Charleston, Hilton Head, Knoxville,  et.... in a few hours. People even drive to Disney World. This suppresses local leisure and business demand as our population often can do a "driving" vacation / trip and be in a new city in a comparable amount of time / hassle to flying.

Over in Denver, nearby cities are very far away: Salt Lake City 8+ hours, Kansas City ~ 9 hours, Albuquerque ~7 hours, et... so if you are going on a trip, you pretty much have to fly. This causes much more local demand, hence only 35% of Denver's passenger count is connecting (largely on United). Add in Denver being the gateway to the Rocky Mountains, the ski resorts, national parks, et... and you have a metro area that can support being a legacy hub for United to connect traffic between the east and western half of the country, along with plenty of leisure demand left over for Frontier and Southwest. 

Charlotte's main advantage is being a connecting hub, which is VERY strong and ~80% of our traffic, but we don't have comparable local demand to an airport like Denver to leave as much room for the non-legacy airlines like Southwest that thrive off local traffic.

You're right about local demand supporting the market, but that doesn't diminish a geographic advantage for Charlotte. With the hub and spoke model, there will always be a second airline competing with Delta's advantage in Atlanta as strategic South/East megahub. Dallas is too far away, and there is no other airport that will be large enough in our lifetimes in the southeast that can produce the volume and margins as we are able to . Dulles is probably the closest thing to an Atlanta competitor and that's too far away.

 

[TCLT]

Just now, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

You're right about local demand supporting the market, but that doesn't diminish a geographic advantage for Charlotte. With the hub and spoke model, there will always be a second airline competing with Delta's advantage in Atlanta as strategic South/East megahub. Dallas is too far away, and there is no other airport that will be large enough in our lifetimes in the southeast that can produce the volume and margins as we are able to . Dulles is probably the closest thing to an Atlanta competitor and that's too far away.

 

Correct. CLT's geographic advantage lends itself to a domestic connecting megahub. And AA has that hub here. That advantage does nothing to incentivize or support other airline local traffic though. Which is CLT2014's overall point.

[kermit]

Just to add a bit of history here. While Charlotte is well positioned for Southeastern traffic, there are other airports in the region which have served as hubs. RDU and Nashville were both American hubs and even Greensboro served as a hub for Continental for a while in the 1990s.  So geographically there are other airports that could replace CLT (from an operational perspective I don’t think either RDU or PTI would be capable of hosting a hub these days).

Without knowing the numbers I would think that Nashville might offer more o/d traffic than Charlotte but our o/d  would certainly be higher yielding (assuming business travel returns).

Edited March 15, 2021 by kermit

[Miesian Corners]

5 hours ago, kermit said:

Just to add a bit of history here. While Charlotte is well positioned for Southeastern traffic, there are other airports in the region which have served as hubs. RDU and Nashville were both American hubs and even Greensboro served as a hub for Continental for a while in the 1990s.  So geographically there are other airports that could replace CLT (from an operational perspective I don’t think either RDU or PTI would be capable of hosting a hub these days).

Without knowing the numbers I would think that Nashville might offer more o/d traffic than Charlotte but our o/d  would certainly be higher yielding (assuming business travel returns).

RDU's main negative as a reliable hub is that its parallel runways are too close together for simultaneous takeoffs and landings.

[urbanlover568]

11 hours ago, KJHburg said:

^^^ I agree with all that above.  Charlotte is days drive of a huge chunk of the US population and many tourist destinations which are the among the most visited in the country.  I enjoy driving as in last year I will drive back to Texas this fall.  It only adds 2 or so days to the trip I would usually take and have my own vehicle with as much luggage as I want to bring.  

4 hours from the beach ad 2 hours from the mountains. Really can't beat it geographically unless you live in California, but climate change is turning that state into a desert and high wildfire region. 

[turbocraig]

13 hours ago, urbanlover568 said:

4 hours from the beach ad 2 hours from the mountains. Really can't beat it geographically unless you live in California, but climate change is turning that state into a desert and high wildfire region. 

Speaking of California, AA is adding service to Ontario, CA:

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article249945979.html

 

[CltFlyer]

Here are the final requests for this years Small Community Air Svc Development (SCASD) Program.  Several airports have requested service to Charlotte on AA.

Lakeland, FL (LAL)

Kalamazoo, MI (AZO)

Valdosta, GA (VLD)

State College, PA (SCE)

St.  Augustine, FL (UST)

Stewart/Newburgh, NY (SWF) *alternative

New Haven, CT (HVN) * a resumption of service that was discontinued due to Covid.

While it is unlikely all would get approved.  I imagine we will see 2 or 3 of the destinations added by the end of the year.  I could see LAL, AZO, VLD, SCE, and HVN as plausible.  UST is probably too close to Daytona Beach and Jacksonville.  

Here are the links to all of the proposals.

https://www.regulations.gov/docket/DOT-OST-2020-0231/document

 

The Lakeland proposal also included a list of the 25 largest markets currently without a non-stop to CLT.  Several of which have been added during Covid.

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by CltFlyer

[HopHead]

^So is San Jose slated to come back?  Apologies if it's already been mentioned, but I'd assume so if it isn't already with nearly 100 people per day from here going there.  Interesting stats on some of those destinations. Calgary, I'd never thought they'd be up there. Also, and just speaking from experience, but I'd bet Colorado Springs would see a much higher number if there was a non-stop from CLT. Pre-Covid, I used to go out there 5-6 times a year for work and it was always waaaay easier to fly into Denver and drive the 1 hour 15 minutes to COS than it was to get the connection in Dallas to COS. A number of people I'd travel with did the same but would jump on that non-stop in a heart beat. 

[LKN704]

That's a good chart.

Goes to show how weak Charlotte is of a market in terms of international O/D traffic to Asia. I would be interested to see data on Mumbai and Delhi. I would have thought one (or both) would be higher than Shanghai. 

5 hours ago, HopHead said:

^So is San Jose slated to come back?  Apologies if it's already been mentioned, but I'd assume so if it isn't already with nearly 100 people per day from here going there.  Interesting stats on some of those destinations. Calgary, I'd never thought they'd be up there. Also, and just speaking from experience, but I'd bet Colorado Springs would see a much higher number if there was a non-stop from CLT. Pre-Covid, I used to go out there 5-6 times a year for work and it was always waaaay easier to fly into Denver and drive the 1 hour 15 minutes to COS than it was to get the connection in Dallas to COS. A number of people I'd travel with did the same but would jump on that non-stop in a heart beat. 

There isn't 100 people going there from Charlotte each day...there's only 45.8 PDEW. 

[HopHead]

3 hours ago, LKN704 said:

There isn't 100 people going there from Charlotte each day...there's only 45.8 PDEW. 

Got it. I looked at the far left column and just divided by 365. Need to know the airline acronyms better. 

[xapostrophe]

Dublin and madrid restart tomorrow apparently.

[CltFlyer]

1 hour ago, xapostrophe said:

Dublin and madrid restart tomorrow apparently.

Source?  It appears that PHL-DUB re-starts tomorrow.  I'm not showing anything from CLT to Dublin and Madrid until June.  Same for Frankfurt.  Munich was already announced as gone until Winter2021/2022 at the earliest.

London is going from 3x weekly to daily starting tomorrow.  

[xapostrophe]

9 minutes ago, CltFlyer said:

Source?  It appears that PHL-DUB re-starts tomorrow.  I'm not showing anything from CLT to Dublin and Madrid until June.  Same for Frankfurt.  Munich was already announced as gone until Winter2021/2022 at the earliest.

London is going from 3x weekly to daily starting tomorrow.  

Company message this afternoon.  May be a typo. But it had. Both destinations listed tomorrow out of clt.  

[LKN704]

AA subbed a 77W on DFW-CLT/CLT-MIA yesterday. Looking back it looks like such swaps happened a couple of times during the month of March. 

[kermit]

I am under no impression that Delta would or could ever do anything to weaken their ATL fortress but the growing friction between Delta and the GA GOP is certainly interesting.

 

Remember when republicans were pro-business?

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by kermit

[LKN704]

Everything is so silly.

First of all Delta is a private enterprise and can do/say whatever they want. However, Ed essentially opened up an entire can of worms and brought this on himself when he initially stated he was in favor of the Georgian law. Essentially his remarks today about how the bill is "unacceptable" (which it 100% is) is a way of covering his behind and his previous disgusting comments about the law. If he hadn't made the stupid mistake of praising the law in the first place the company wouldn't be in the same position it is today. 

At the same time, the Georgia government can do what they want. However I am sure Delta lobbyists have key politicians locked in tight with lots of goodies (elite status, SkyClub memberships, etc) that they will still continue to receive key tax incentives no matter what. I think most Georgian politicians probably realize that Delta isn't leaving Atlanta. They have so much invested in the area in terms of assets that the Delta hub will be there until the end of time. 

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

3 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Everything is so silly.

First of all Delta is a private enterprise and can do/say whatever they want. However, Ed essentially opened up an entire can of worms and brought this on himself when he initially stated he was in favor of the Georgian law. Essentially his remarks today about how the bill is "unacceptable" (which it 100% is) is a way of covering his behind and his previous disgusting comments about the law. If he hadn't made the stupid mistake of praising the law in the first place the company wouldn't be in the same position it is today. 

At the same time, the Georgia government can do what they want. However I am sure Delta lobbyists have key politicians locked in tight with lots of goodies (elite status, SkyClub memberships, etc) that they will still continue to receive key tax incentives no matter what. I think most Georgian politicians probably realize that Delta isn't leaving Atlanta. They have so much invested in the area in terms of assets that the Delta hub will be there until the end of time. 

Delta sees the writing on the wall. The GA GOP is about to have a messy Gov. and SoS Primary then a huge fall from grace. The trend blue in Georgia is in full force, faster than NC, with massive demographics changes and a smaller statewide rural white vote.

[KJHburg]

from the ATL Biz Chronicle:

""The city of Valdosta, 228 miles south of Atlanta and just 15 miles from the Florida state line, has had Delta Air Lines Inc. (NYSE: DAL) flights from Atlanta for years. Delta is the only carrier serving the city. Valdosta believes adding new service through American Airlines (Nasdaq: AAL) to another hub city will increase competition — and reduce the cost of fares. Valdosta is seeking a $1 million grant from the U.S. Department of Transportation to launch the service, aiming at two flights a day to Charlotte Douglas International Airport. American Airlines expressed an interest in providing the service, but is not obligated. ""

[LKN704]

I flew in last night from Washington Dulles to spend the weekend with some family. Flight was a PSA CRJ-900 so we parked at E. This was the first time in several years that my CRJ flight actually parked at a gate equipped with a jet-bridge, as opposed to a hardstand gate connected to the terminal with that scrappy covered walkway. The concourse was bursting at the seems, and we had to wait several minutes as there was significant congestion taxiing around the individual piers of the concourse. All restaurants/shops on the concourse appeared to be open. I can't speak for the rest of the terminal but everything seemed to be open elsewhere as well. The food court by the Centurion Lounge was packed, and the row of upmarket stores on the D/E connector all looked to be vacant and open. I didn't take any pictures of construction or the concourse as I had people waiting for me, but I will try to take some when I leave Sunday.

It doesn't look like renovations have started on E...the bathrooms are pretty nasty (with that red tile that used to be more prevalent around the airport, and the urinals lack dividers which freak me out) and the old signage is still prevalent. However it looks the expansion on the end of E is coming along nicely and there is an apparent steel frame addition at the end of the concourse. It was night when I landed so it was hard to see. 

The difference between CLT and Dulles was like night and day. The main terminal area of Dulles was so dystopian...rows of ticket counters for airlines that either are bankrupt or may not come back to the airport. I was the only one in the PreCheck lane, and I was also the only person in my carriage of the people mover. The strange thing is it looks like a good number European carriers have returned and were on the ground...I saw Austrian/KLM/SAS/Lufthansa/Air France on the ground last night, and while I didn't see them BA and TAP Portugal had flights leaving that evening. It was strange to see with some parts of Europe still on lockdown. 

Sad row of airlines with financial troubles (Alitalia/Cathay/South African) that may/may not return to the airport:

I was literally the one of the only people in the concourse...literally the exact opposite of CLT. Most stores/restaurants appeared to be closed:

I

I'd love to know the yields/loads of the flight to Lisbon. It's such a seasonal destination as it is and IIRC they recently just tightened their border regulations. 

A Middle Eastern/North African quadfecta (Qatar, Royal Air Maroc, Emirates and Turkish)...Etihad was also present at the little gathering but was on the other side of the concourse:

[LKN704]

Airport was PACKED tonight. Just like pre-pandemic times. 
 

I went through the B checkpoint and wanted to see if they changed the Centurion Lounge hours (they haven’t, still close at 7p) and quickly regretted my decision and I had to swim through massive crowds of people who look like they haven’t ever walked in a crowded facility. I went back to my gate at the end of the B Concourse. 
 

I finally realized how nice the B Concourse renovations were in the grand scheme of things in comparison to other airports. Regardless the lack of space/seating is apparent and the concourse was not designed for multiple 180-seat A321s to be boarding at the same time. There was a flight to Seattle boarding and the gate-lice line was snaked all the way around the corner to the opposite side of the gate. My gate (B11) had no seating available whatsoever. 
 

I noticed that the bathrooms seemed to be dingy-but I guess this is the case for most airports in the US today. Those soap dispensers don’t work whatsoever and I noticed the caulk where they put the blue tile backsplash behind the sink was coming off and looked yellow. 
 

Construction is coming along on the Terminal Lobby Expansion. They have the first steel frame for the building already constructed. 

[Rufus]

I'll add my two cents from my travel last week: 

 

• Concourse E was INSANE -- I have flown into every concourse but A in the last year, and E by far is the busiest any airport I have been in the last year has looked. 
  • I haven't kept up with the construction in the E section, but it looks like there are two new additions? One at the E10 split and then one at E38? 
  • The utilities in the concourse could have been better -- not an outlet or charging station in sight. 
• This time I flew out of C which looked like it had been renovated. It was also busy, but probably 75% as busy as E was. 
• In recent times, B and D have looked good, but B looked better. 

Most of my flights are from NYC (LGA) to CLT and then to ILM where my parents live, so it is quite the slog to get from B, C, or D all the way to what is usually the end of E. The atrium is great, and the light it gives is great. But as soon as you start heading towards E, it is so tight and packed with people. I do like that eating section where Bojangles is right before the escalators down to E, but still...I wish they could expand the portion where Brooks Brothers is.